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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Excess Root Penetration
- - By ilkinhasanov (*) Date 09-13-2019 12:37
Gents,
I need your help: is there any information for excess root penetration for plate or tube/pipe in AWS D1.1?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-13-2019 17:50
Table 9.16 (4)

Clause 5.23

Table 5.8  &  5.9

Figure 5.4
Parent - - By ilkinhasanov (*) Date 09-17-2019 10:47
Lawrence,
Thanks for your reply

But , there is no information regarding  "excess root penetration" in mentioned section and figures/tables above
As i understood we do not have access to "root pass" of tubular  , so AWS D1.1 does not identify any specific value for it.

Best Regards
Ilkin Hasanov
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-17-2019 11:19
You need to be more specific with your question.
Excess penetration is a concern in piping codes as it may affect flow, may affect pigging activities, may affect gauge plate testing etc, etc.
I am no expert on AWS D.1.1 but I would think excess penetration on tubing is of little to no concern (strength wise, not quality wise).
Again, you need to be more specific - have you had a weld rejected for excess penetration ?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-17-2019 11:34 Edited 09-17-2019 11:52
Ilkin     Let's try saying the same thing a different way.

"Excess root penetration"  in the nomenclature of AWS D1.1 would be represented by the term "excess reinforcement" and is found in "Weld Profiles" clause 5.23

Table 5.9 provides "R" values for various base metal thicknesses in groove welds (including HSS/pipe.    "R"= reinforcement. Which is exactly what you are looking for when measuring root penetration of a CJP pipe/HSS joint.

If the measured R value on your pipe is greater than the limit on the table,  the reinforcement is excessive.  This applies to root reinforcement or face reinforcement.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-25-2019 13:26
Lawrence,
With all due respect I would have to disagree.
The diagrams shown are single sided with backing and double-sided.
The OP is talking about single-sided open root (no backing).
As the OP has noted you cannot visually inspect the internals of a tubular weld.
That is why I asked if he had had a weld rejected via UT or RT.
No reply ?
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-25-2019 22:51
I think you are right Shane.

But I also think (how I read it). “R=reinforcement “   Whether root or cap and the limits of the table logically apply.

But yes, an open root welded from one side would be a logical representation to be shown.

I’m actually on the clause 5 task group and they meet next week.  I’ll put the question informally to a few folks and see if they agree.

If someone is doing this they will need to qualify the WPS and that’s the time any special criteria should be developed.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-25-2019 13:46
Oops, the Farm Code forgot to consider melt-through for a CJP welded from one side without backing! This is from the folks that tell us it is permitted to on a contaminated surface provided the quality requirements of the completed weld meets the code. (My words, not theirs)

Just remember, codes are developed by committees comprised of mere mortals that aren't infallible.

Al :confused:
Parent - - By lucky88nhacai Date 09-27-2019 04:17
But yes, an open root welded from one side would be a logical representation to be shown.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-27-2019 14:37
No argument from me, but there is a mindset in the structural welding codes to lean toward prequalified groove details because most contractors try to work within the confines of the prerequisites of prequalification.

A WPS for an open root, welded from one side must be qualified by testing. Generally, the root would not be accessible for a direct visual examination. The engineer is responsible to address any specific shortcomings of the code that applies to "his project". I would say that in my opinion, this is one such situation. One shoe doesn't necessarily fit all. Depending on the nature of the loads, "excess root reinforcement" may be a non-issue, yet, under other loading conditions (think cyclic loads), the root condition may be a serious consideration.

I throw darts at all the codes, not just AWS, just to remind them they are not infallible. All in all, they do a pretty good job of addressing the conditions the vast majority of us are likely to encounter on most day to day work. The structural codes give the Engineer the authority to address any situation or condition that aren't addressed by a particular code. This is one of the situations where I would direct my concerns to the Engineer for his input and resolution. If the code doesn't address the issue, it is certainly not within the inspector's purview to make a final determination.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Excess Root Penetration

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