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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / D1.1 open roots info
- - By Scharrer (*) Date 03-01-2021 03:06
Hey folks,

I'm in welding school and am taking currently the quals classes where we go in depth on code welding. Now our instructor gave us some work to do about the different v grooves. Specifically about the root openings etc. I just figured I'll go look up the D1.1 and get my info from there but that thing costs hell a lot of money which I don't have. Also googled the crap out of it and couldn't find anything that looked reliable and trustworthy. I'm just wondering if I'm too stupid to find this info or if it's really that hard to get it. I mean, I don't need the complete D1.1 just info about root openings which I thought would be out there somewhere. Well, now I'm just here to ask if you could verify what I think is the right info from reading through a lot of websites and putting together small bits of info.

Root openings with backing can be from 0" to 3/4" plus I think the 1/16 tolerance.
Root opening with no backings can be from 0" to 1/8" plus the 1/16 tolerance
Root face/Landing: 0 to 1/8
Root reinforcement: 1/16 to 1/8
Crown reinforcement: 1/16 to 1/8
Weld overlap on root and cap: up to an 1/8 on each side

Thanks for any info or hint,

Scharrer
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-01-2021 19:10
Doesn't your school have a copy of D1.1?

Al
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 03-05-2021 16:41
Scharrer,
I sent you a private message. If you read it I will be able to help you.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-05-2021 20:25
The big thing to remember is that the AWS structural welding code/steel has adopted concept of "prequalified WPSs", WPSs qualified by testing, and Standard WPSs. A WPS that is "prequalified" does not have to be tested to demonstrate it "can be done" and it produces the required mechanical properties. A WPS qualified by testing has demonstrated it is possible to produce an acceptable weld that also produces the required mechanical properties.

There are no prequalified complete joint penetration groove welds that are welded from one side without backing. One would have to weld a coupon and subject it to various tests to demonstrate it works.

This is taken from AWS D1.1:2020. I hope it helps.

Al
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 03-16-2021 10:00
In general, the parts of a groove weld all work together to increase/decrease weldablility, increase/decrease volume of weld, and increase/decrease weld joint prep time.

There are standard joint designs that are preferred and typical for many situations. I have welded 10" Schedule 160 with a 3/32" gap at the top and a 3/4" or so gap at the bottom. Techniques and settings all had to be varied during every part of the weld to get an RT Quality Root for B31.1 requirements.

With SMAW, the joint geometry will come into play sooner than with processes with smaller diameter electrodes. Because of the larger diameter electrode and the fact that the flux is on the outside, the ability for a joint with an narrow root opening, narrow groove angle, or thick root face may be more difficult than one with a more "open" joint. On the other extreme, wide root opening, larger groove angle, or thinner root face may cause excessive welding/distortion, and make controlling the root profile difficult.

All of the "parts" of a groove play a role in how easy it is to weld. As your skill grows as a welder the "perfect" fitup will grow in tolerances and you will gain some preferences when you are in a situation that allows some variation.

As welders, we may or may not have any options but to weld what was put in front of us or go home and let someone else that can handle it, weld it up. (Not a good cjhoice IMO).

Your numbers you provided are not firm. A CJP groove with a 1/16 root opening, 1/8" Root Face, and a 45 degree included angle would be tough in most positions and most processes. Take that same joint and either open the root opening to 5/16"or reduce the root face to 0 with a  70 degree included angle and it becomes more weldable.

There are "standards" in many industries and the structural world has AWS D1.1 for prequalified joint details or restricted amounts that geometry can change before a WPS must be requalified .

For piping situations, there are standards that address the preparation on the ends of fittings but those are almost always altered in the field because of inconsistencies, WPS requirements, or welder preference.

I hope you continue to chase welding related knowledge.

Have a great day.

Gerald Austin
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 03-16-2021 14:52
Gerald, you are the man. 3/4" gap!! I would have told my fitter to cut that joint apart and miter that joint to get rid of that 3/4" gap or told my foreman to get my money if I was asked to weld it. :smile:

"I have welded 10" Schedule 160 with a 3/32" gap at the top and a 3/4" or so gap at the bottom".
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 03-16-2021 19:48
It was a 900 PSI superheater outlet header on a bark boiler  that someone (the mill) had put an SA 106B pup piece into. They asked us to come look at it because they thought it had a pinhole because they saw it was blowing out the lagging. We were there on a recovery boiler outage. They shut it down and we removed the insulation and the HAZ was cracked along the toe of the weld on the SA106. More than 1/2 of it was visible and after the boiler cooled off, it opened up quite well.

When the fitter cut it, it nearly took his head off. Many of the spring cans had failed or not been properly set or were damaged when the pup piece was put ib. It allowed the pipe to move over the years.

We got the new piece of P22 and cut an beveled everything square but the vertical run of pipe had a "twist" and another horizontal run had crept. An engineer decided it was ok and said if we could weld it, then weld it. AI had no problem. I coulda made a ton a money on the "bets" that were offered. The 300 preheat was a bit tough finger resting the root pass in. The RT looked like a weaved 7018 Cap on the root.

It is 1-1/8" wall so its pretty hard to get a bad RT using B31.1/Sec I acceptance criteria.

Thought that was a weld to talk about as far as be being able to weld, you can be pretty sure I made a few to wash that glory away!!!
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 03-17-2021 11:01
Gerald,
I was just pulling your chain a little. I too have been in those situation in my past. I have never had to weld that big of gap. Bridging that grand canyon must have been tough. 10" Sch. 160 (1 1/8" wall) would have been pretty hard to miter. I once was involved in a boiler repair due the operator inadvertently shutting boiler feed water pumps down and starving the boiler to the point of fish mouthing  three tubes. We had to cut our way in and window weld our way back out. Not some of our best work but it passed radiography and didn't leak when we fired the boiler again. Enjoyed your post. Brought back a lot of memories, not all good but all are part of our experiences.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 03-19-2021 01:34
Many memories for sure. Its a great career for sure!

Have a good one Jim!
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / D1.1 open roots info

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