Backcharge's

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-22-2004 14:03

It doesn't seem excessive in my own experience. If in fact there were errors the installation crew may have had to delay until those errors were resolved... I don't think anyone in the forum would be able to answer whether or not they backcharges were justifiable without knowing exactly how your contract with the subcontractor was written; this is definately attorney type stuff ~ which may, in turn, lead to higher legal costs than the backcharges themselves... although it seems that the 1/3 your company was never notified about could be disputed in a business to business agreement... a hard situation any way you look at it!

By gsi

Date 12-22-2004 14:29

Thanks for you comments. I feel that on a project like this that details and fabrication error will happen. I think that 3% to 5% in backcharges maybe acceptable. Personally I would like to see no problems.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 12-22-2004 15:04

I would request copies of documentation that justifies the backcharges.
To be reasonable, they shouldn't just throw a number at you, there should be a breakdown of what the problem was, the fix, and workhours spent in correction, etc. Expect costs for delays to be thrown in. Usually backcharges are negotiated against change orders.

I would also thoroughly review the contract specs and the AISC Code of Standard Practice (CSP) , if the contract invokes that spec.
Unfortunately, in most cases the fabricator is responsible for the detailing, even though drawings may have been subbed out. The owner's approval only means that, yes the drawings look somewhat like what one would expect, but, no, the actual dimensional details were not reviewed for accuracy. The term used is "general conformance" which means anything they want it to.

You could pass backcharges on to the detailer, but many are 1 or 2 person operations and you won't be able to get blood out of a turnip.

As I'm sure you have heard, there are times when erectors or GCs are losing money and backcharge over every little thing to recoup their losses. Sometimes, the backcharges reflect an "aggravation cost". You may also find that the backcharges are modest and reasonable.

Either way, paying a visit to the site while work in ongoing, talking with the erector and/or GC about problems and how to solve them, is time well spent. If there are detail problem make the detailer participate.

But for all jobs, know exactly what is required in the contract and specifications, and know exactly what you have provided as far as materials and quality and when it was shipped. Document, document, document everything. If you do, you will be taken seriously.

Chet Guilford

By gsi

Date 12-22-2004 19:05

Thanks, for the information. It’s good to hear all this from a fellow inspector. We as a company and myself as an inspector have done everything we could to prevent any backcharges and documented to the extreme. We have passed some of the detailing errors over to the engineering firm. The big thing I wish we had done was taking the detailer with us on inspection trips. Hindsight 20/20. Thanks again, have a safe Holiday
Dave

By swnorris (****)

Date 12-24-2004 14:22

Hi Dave,

We have the following note on all our erection drawings:

"Normal erection operations include the correction of minor misfits by moderate reaming, chipping, welding or cutting, and the drawing of elements into line through the use of drift pins. Errors which cannot be corrected by the foregoing means or which require major changes in member configurations shall be reported to the owner and fabricator by the erector, so as to enable the responsible party to either correct the error or to approve the most efficient and economic method of correction to be used. No corrections or alterations are to be field corrected without written approval from this office". As for detailing, some of these guys couldn't draw a stick man without leaving off one of the legs. I've always thought that it is a good idea to agree with the detailer up front to hold a percentage of his detailing fee until the job is erected, which would help recover any charges related to detailing errors. I can't count the number of times that the fabricator has had to foot the entire bill for backcharges, when it was the detailer who was responsible for the errors.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 12-27-2004 14:03

"Couldn't draw a stickman without leaving off one of the legs". I like that. Hope you don't mind me borrowing the phrase from time to time.

Chet Guilford

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-18-2005 15:59

Detailing errors cause us a lot of greif in our shop also. Not just the misfits in the field, but time lost everyday due to numerous questions that our fitters ask. You simply don't have time in your estimates for stacking up material at the end of your table because of questions needing answers, and then spreading out additional new material to try and keep busy until the answers arrive. All of our detailing is outsourced<uhgg!> mostly overseas to firms that are not in the same timezones we are, thus making it difficult to ask questions because they are sleeping while we are working. The misfits in the field can really add up when you have men and equipment working extra hours to fix problems. Alot of the time they can't simply just fix it, they must await instruction from the EOR as to what to do. This ends up being a battle to stay on schedule and backcharges inevidable.

EDIT: I forgot to add that most detailers don't have deep enough pockets to absorb these tremendous back charges and the fabricator that hires them must absorb it. I hate it, but that is a fact of life in this business.
John Wright

By gsi

Date 01-18-2005 21:28

I hear ya John, We are starting to outsource more detailing work each year. We just settled a backcharge with one of our detailers. Total was $17,000 we agreed on $1,500. This is what drives me nuts. As fabricators we are responsible! But no engineering firm or detailer is. What a bunch of crap.

By thcqci

Date 01-18-2005 22:21

Ditto, but whatcha gonna do? We have had many troubles from the detailers for some previous projects. But, if you try to backcharge the detailer, they simply decide they don't want to work for you. As was said above, smaller detailing firms simply do not have the resources to absorb the backcharge costs. We tried bringing detailing in-house and drove up our detailing costs, plus had the overhead of people to try to keep busy when it got slower. Have let most of the detailing department go, except for a skeleton crew. One thing that can be done is put extra money into the detailing budget part of the bid. If things go well, then you make a little more profit. But if not, you have money to help offset the mistakes. Kind of like self insuring against detailing errors. Another possible solution is to hire a good checker to review the outsourced fabrication drawings. If they successfully catch most errors, they are saving the money that would be paid in backcharges. The extra checker review may cost too much time on tight schedule projects though.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 01-19-2005 12:38

Hi Doug,
Adding a little extra to the bid to cover costs of detailing mistakes simply takes us out of the bid altogether on many projects we look at. Most have only a narrow margin of profit just to close a job. So what do you do, it's a pure gamble anymore. Large profit margins just aren't on the bids like they were in years past. We seem to sell plenty of work, but it takes lots of tonnage to make a profit, and lots of finger crossing, hoping the job goes up without any big snags.:)
John Wright

By gsi

Date 01-19-2005 12:55

Its hard money these days