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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Help beginner with aluminum TIG
- - By 510rob Date 06-01-2005 08:13
Greetings,

I was just trying to join some 6061 together using my lack of welding skills, and I ended up with a terrible looking mess!

Specs of situation producing such awful results...
Early style Syncrowave 180SD, set to about 160 amps, AC, TIG
#17 torch, 3/32" Zirconiated balled electrode, medium gas lens & about a #7 or #8 pink cup
15cfh Argon

The material is a small 4" by 4" flange made from 1/2" 6061 plate, and the tubes being joined to it are .140" wall 6061 sch40 pipe, and only about 6" long

The problem I'm having is related to these ugly little black spots on top of the work, not to mention my inability to get a nice smooth consistent bead to start, well, beading!

Forget the fact that the beads look like a total goof was running the machine (me!), but there is a cruddy black mess everywhere, and even if it did look halfway to related to the cousin of decency, those areas are still mottled with black spots.

ideas?!?
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 06-01-2005 10:19
It has been 10 years since I last TIG welded so I could be wrong. How did you clean the area to be welded? Also how many times did you dip the wrong electrode into the puddle? Lack of cleaning and dipping the wrong electrode can cause problems. Have you ever oxy-acetalyne welded before? If not and you have access to a oxy-acetalyne torch you could use that to work on your skills. They both basically use the same tecnique. I never liked either one of the processes always got bored dipping the rod into the puddle.Just never had the patience to weld that slow. Anyway hope that helps.
Parent - - By 510rob Date 06-01-2005 18:33
I have to admit that I didn't concentrate so much effort on cleaning, so I was probably jumping the gun.

What would you suggest as a proper and successful cleaning technique? I normally use a stainless wire brush I bought for aluminum only (i.e. it doesn't get used for other stuff), but I've seen other suggest things like scotchbrite pads, acetone, "chemical cleaner" (don't know what that is specifically)

any info would be helpful.

oh yeah, I only stuffed the electrode into the work once, and I was well aware of that boo-boo, so I swapped in a fresh electrode and still had what looked like a dog's breakfast!
Parent - By jay72chevy (*) Date 06-01-2005 19:11
Turn the machine on to dc +, then only using the Tig Torch press pedal. Look at the tungsten while you do this. Make sure you get a lil ball at the end of the tungsten. This doesnt take much when you do this. Then switch machine back to Ac to weld your aluminum. This should help let me know if your having problems.
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 06-01-2005 19:15
Turn your gas up to 30 CFH. Make the tungsten stickout only 1/8 from the end of the "Pink" gas cup. Turn up the power until you can get a good molten puddle without shooting a ball of tungsten into the puddle. The black around the welded area sounds like perosity from lack of gas flow, or from the tungsten being very contaminated. Hope this helps!!
Parent - - By 510rob Date 06-01-2005 19:29
30cfh (I guess I was being cheap at only 12cfh!!!) - heh, the "pink" comment was only because I can't remember what the material is called, but I remember it is the "pink" kind

The tungstens were balled properly

I will go and attack it again and see what the heck I can get this thing to do with 30cfh of sheild gas flow.

Thanks for all the tips, and keep 'em coming

By the way, what is "chemical cleaner"?!?
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 06-01-2005 20:45
All of that "chemical" stuff is really overated for the home shop welder. A SS wire brush will work for 90% of the oxides on the surface. From there, the AC wave balance can also help. Keep trying!!!!!

Sorry, I was not trying to dig you for the "Pink" cup, just messing around a bit. It is made from a ceramic material. Good Luck!!
Parent - - By 510rob Date 06-02-2005 21:51
I switched to my #9 torch (brand new in box) without a gas lens, and with about a #6 cup (guesstimating), and turned the argon up to 30cfh. I still got the black bubbly flecks & crap apperance, except for one area and one portion of arc which I was conscious of as it was happening...

I felt like the puddle was getting away from me, so I backed off on the pedal a little bit for a second or so, and the arc seemed to smooth out, and I could see things working a lot better. After I finished the little section I was working on, I flipped up the mask and found the mentioned section was shiny, didn't have any of the black speckles in it, and it looked reasonable (except for my filler control was still a bit wonky)

So this brings me to my next question... is it possible to overheat the metal? I was under the impression that oxide and alloy components would float to the surface and that was that - you have a moltent pool under the scum-skin... ideas?!?

(of course, the deal may have been me not pulling the filler out of the gas shield because it just dawned on me as someone else mentioned, I might be pulling the filler right out of the Argon cloud...)


ahhhhhhhh... I suppose if it was easy, everyone would be doing it, and I wouldn't have all these beginner questions
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-02-2005 23:28

Set your balence control at 5, Don't worry about balling your electrode, it can be pointed or hemispherical for what your trying to do. The important part is that the electrode is perfectly clean. If there is even the smallest dip into the puddle or if the wire barely touches your electrode you must stop!

Any contamination on your electrode will cause black smut (which by the way is burnt magnesium). Aluminum has a tendancy to climb up your electrode so make sure its all off before you continue. The constant cleaning is a real pain when you are in the beginning stages but will pay off immedatly in quality. 30 cfh is too high stay between 15 and 25. Keep your electrode extention limited to the dia. of your cup oriface.

Get a low chair so you can keep your electrode at 90 degrees to the work, a bad torch angle can draw air into the puddle and is a common error with beginners.


Safety tip....Clean the alum off your electrode with a belt sander. Never dress alum contaminated on a stone wheel.

Let us know how you progress
Parent - - By EVWELDER (**) Date 06-03-2005 03:13
I agree with Lawrence keep your gas around 20 cfh, 30 can tend to draw air into your puddle.4043 is the best rod to use on 6061 it could be your rod thats contaminating your weld.Also check your gas lense make sure there is no trash in it restricting gas flow.
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 06-03-2005 11:45
I agree that 30cfh can draw air in with some turburlance, but he did state that he was using a gas lense which should eliminate this problem. Also, one of the most frequent problems we see with first timers is they tend to be very inconsistant with their arc length ie. from too close to too far away and back again. As your experience gets better, 20 cfh would work fine I'm sure, but 30 will allow for this change in arc length without the intorduction of atmosphere.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 06-03-2005 14:24
You ask if it was possible to over heat the metal. Yes.

Aluminum is a very efficient heat sink and often times can carry your heat away as fast as you can put in with you torch. But as you know has a low melting temp. If you try to put it enough heat in one spot to make a puddle often times you will melt through and draw in contaminants.

Have you tried preheating your work? Aluminum welds beautifully when every thing is at the right temp. By every thing I mean both pieces to be joined. Welding a thin piece to a thicker piece almost always requires preheating the thicker piece before welding.
Parent - - By 510rob Date 06-03-2005 18:45
I thought I'd reply to my first post because all the other posts are getting too thin, and it feels like they are disappearing into the screen!!!

There's been some interesting mentions of drawing contamination in from the backside, vernturi draw of atmospheric air into the shelding cloud, and arc length variations...

I can see the higher 30cfh flow exaggerating the potential venturin problem as opposed to say 15cfh, but will a gas lens work better than a standard gas nub/tip, or am I just pissing in the wind either way if this is happening? How can I prevent venturi draw in the first place? Is it something to worry about?

If all variables were stabilized (you know, one of those "text book situations"), what effect would varying the arc length have for a TIG arc? I would guess arc length variations are more pronounced with Helium than Argon, but still, what would I actually see happen, or better yet, what should I look for, and how much arc length should I try to maintain?

I agree that I could possibly draw crap in from the backside because until the tube/flange joint is completely fused there is a small opening, but is this the likely source of contaminants, or is it more likely that I'm jerking the filler rod out of the gas cloud when it's still hot, then jamming it back into the cloud a split second later?

Preheating, yeah... I have to been meaning to stick the whole thing into my bar-b-que, put it on high, then go sweep up the shop for a half an hour. I figure that about as good a preheater as I have around here, and I totally agree about it helping the job work properly.
Parent - By medicinehawk (**) Date 06-04-2005 12:43
You seem to be getting alot of feedback here so...I might as well join in with my 2 cents worth... If you are using a gas lense, then use 25 cfh of argon on the torch. Plus or minus 5 cfh should not matter and if you are paying for the gas...less is better. Whether you zirtungsten or pure doesn't really matter nor whether you switch to DCRP to get a ball on the tip, because you will anyway.....when you sre using AC/High-Freq-continuous. Welding 1/2" plate to sched 40 pipe is not hard, but you need plenty of heat so you should be using 1/8" tungsten and 175 amps with a rheostat.....aim the heat on the thicker of the peices to be joined, stick-out the electrode 3/8"-7/16" to do a fillet weld....mash the pedal until you see the puddle start to form (on the 1/2" plate) pretty much where the pipe meets the plate. The cool thing about tig welding aluminum is that you can use a relatively long arc length which is really the KEY as someone already stated.....the rod really likes to jump on the electrode. Anyway, once the puddle forms on the 1/2" plate move the electrode so both plate & pipe are getting the heat and then start adding wire a drop at a time (keeping the rod in the gas shield & off the tungsten!) and progress right to left(if you are a righty) one drop of metal at a time. Try and get a rhythem and go until you are no longer steady, or the rod is too short or (heaven forbid) you contaminated the electrode.
If you are like me, who drinks far too much coffee and keeping a steady hand is an issue then you can "cheat" by allowing the cup (made of ceramic by the way) to rest on the work, however, you cannot keep ANY pressure on the torch or you will not be able to slide the torch along the path of the joint and ofcourse it will be all up to you to keep the tugsten aimed at the joint.
Cleaning is important so I concur with what was mention by others. It the material anodized??? you'll get black on the weld with that for sure unless you deal with that.
When I first started welding(80's) my first job was tig welding aluminum at a plant which manufactures aluminum oil delivery tanks where cosmetic welds were mandatory. My department supplied the fenders, meter pans and ladders(using 1"-sched-40 pipe) and your 6061-T6 material....some of it was anodized, some wasn't. 4041 makes a shinier bead, but 5356 is stronger. I worked there for 3 years production welding until I got "burned-out" by doing the same thing over and over, but I really enjoyed welding aluminum. For what it's worth......the weld metal deposited (by ANY process) is 1/2 as strong as the base material when it is Aluminum.
Weld-on!
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-05-2005 12:59
Here is an animation of the technique I use when GTAW-AC welding Aluminum that may be of use. The rocking technique allows me to see a little better whats going on and keeps the filler metal from balling up from the heat of the arc.

http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/misc/GTAWAlumAnimation.htm

As mentioned by others, you may be pulling debris from inside the tubes or even the cut end of the tube. Wire brushing right before welding seems to help and be aware of any drafts from other sources.

Helium if used will require higher flow rates than will argon for welding flat and seems to be a little more "sooty" ?.
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 06-06-2005 16:05
Medicinehawk has a very good point. I can't believe that nobody has asked the question yet...Is it anodized. Of course you will have a very hard time and get all of the black crap around the weld if it is in fact anodized. Sometimes you get so caught up in the tech side you forget to ask the simple questions first, I know I did anyway!!
Parent - - By 510rob Date 06-09-2005 22:01
I suppose I should have chucked the tubes into the metal lathe and cleaned the ends off thoroughly to ensure there was no anodize. Somthing I never even thought of. Thanks for the tip

As for drawing contaminants in... I was doing all of the welding on top of a couple of old bricks that I dragged in to use as a heat insulator on top of my workmate. (If I had the space for a piece of 2'x3' steel, I'd make a proper table, but unfortunatley space is just not available at the moment. Anyhow, once the brick heated up, it started gassing out some strange stuff and went brown and a bit burny looking - I assumed the brick was slightly porous and must have been releasing trapped moisture, but who knows what it was (cough cough cough - just kidding)

I looked at those Argon welding chambers on some website like Jetline or something, but shoot, filling those things up with Argon would start to get expensive pretty quickly, not to mention the cost of those chambers is waaaaaaaay out of my league as a hobbyist. But it doesn't hurt to drool into the keyboard once in a while

If I had a digital camera, I'd post a picture of the ugly welding I managed. a 16.5mm drill bit is on order, and phase II will start again once I complete a bit of lathe work for another part of the runners.

Thanks for all the help from you guys - the tips are very insightful and helpful and I really appreciate your responses.

...phase II machined parts to be completed shortly, then I'll dig up this post again, and contine from there with welding them into position...
Parent - By pjseaman (**) Date 06-11-2005 00:52
I built a small chamber out of an old welding lense and a 30 gallon strap cap barrel cut down to one side rib or about 10 gallon. I welded a fitting into the side and cut a hole about 1/2" smaller than the old lense and I duck taped in in from both sides and put in the magnesium part I needed to weld sealed it and purged for about 10 minutes at 30 cfh then welded. Total cost $25 parts and barrel, my time about 2 hours.

Work smarter not harder,
pjs
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Help beginner with aluminum TIG

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