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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / UT Inspection Questions
- - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-02-2005 18:50
I would like to know how many of you level II UT people can UT a weld and tell what the flaw is? For instance can you look at the screen and say that is porosity,that is lack of fusion, or that is a crack. I have had UT level II come in my shop and pass welds that I (level 1 UT) would fail.All I here is "That is porosity,I won't fail a weld for that little bit of porosity". Where is it written in the code book that I can pass a weld based on my opinion of what the flaw is? The way I read AWS D1.1 is that if a flaw is a +5 in a plate 3/4 or less the weld fails. Personally it does not matter to me what the flaw is,if it fails it fails.
Parent - By - Date 09-02-2005 21:19
In some ways, you can compare this to other NDT methods. For instance, when you do MT and you get a linear indication running longitudinally down the center of a weld, and it "looks" like a crack (meaning that the indication has a crack-like shape to it), you can call it a crack with a fairly high degree of confidence, even though you cannot actually see the discontinuity - all you can see is the indication.

With manual shearwave UT of welds (this is what you referred to) it is not quite so straightforward. An experienced (I would underline that word if I could) UT tech can often determine what type of discontinuity is causing a certain indication - but not always. In order to be able to do this, the UT tech must be armed with all of the relevant information, such as: material type, welding process, joint configuration and dimensions, welding position, etc, etc. With this information, together with the basic determinations that you can make about the shape of the discontinuity from probe selection and manipulation, and from the other characteristics that can sometimes be determined by how the indication appears on the screen (e.g. does it walk?, does it show facets?, etc, etc), a good experienced UT tech can sometimes be able to determine with a fairly high degree of accuracy the discontinuity type. It is not easy to do, and most of the UT people I've worked with in my career cannot do it well.

Most if not all codes recognize this inherent difficulty in determining discontinuity type. They then use other characteristics (such as amplitude and length) for determination of acceptance.

All that said, I would agree with your interpretation of AWS D1.1 Section 6 UT. It does not permit the UT operator to arbitrarily accept a discontinuity simply because the operator believes it to be porosity.
Mankenberg
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-03-2005 10:36
kipmank summed it up pretty well with his post. I haven't been "bouncing sound" as long as some of these folks on here so, the only thing I thought of to add was that when you pay attention to the shape of the echos that are returning on the screen, and thier orientation you should notice a pattern after a while. These patterns are what kipmank is referring to. Along with the orientation of the indication within the joint, a sharp edge(ie. from a crack) will have a very sharp, distinct, narrow, thin signature where as a pore of porosity will reflect a signal that might show up as a blunt, sometimes wider, signature. I feel that the lack of fusion is the hardest for me to figure out by simply looking at it's signature on the screen and most of the time the welder won't even see it when they gouge it out, yet when you recheck it after the repair, the signal is gone, no more reflectors.
John Wright
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 09-04-2005 00:49
I too would agree with Makenberg & John. The UT industry has recognised the limitation(s) of exact identification and many technicians use terms like "planar", "spherical", "irregular" or "cracklike". In addition to assessments from probe signals and scanning techniques mentioned above, I also rely on accurate mapping using beam path overlays.

Here is a sample. The joint details are drawn on the graph paper For the overlay I use the transparent sheets sold for use with overhead projectors. They are quickly and easily made and I file the sketch and overlay in the job file along with the report and technique sheet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/thirdeye2/welding01/2513e75c.jpg

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 09-07-2005 14:36
Yes, an experience UT tech may be able to tell the nature of the discontinuity. In my experience, most UT IIs (including myself) are reliable with location and not necessarily capable of discerning the particular discontinuity (nor under many codes are they required to). I am planning on attending a class before the end of the year to improve this aspect of my ability to perform UT competently. Also, I agree with your interpretation of D1.1.

Without trying to sound abrupt, but if you failed (or would have failed) the weld, why was it not repaired and accepted before the UT II came to your shop to do his inspection? I do not present any welds for outside inspectors to inspect that have not already been accepted with an in-house inspection.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-07-2005 14:55
Doug,
That class we were looking into earlier this year got cancelled and I had to opt for the September offering in Lewistown. In talking with Jim Fauth, it appears their outsourcing wasn't working out too well. I hope they will fix their phone to where it rings here in the States from now on. I was the only one signed up for that March class and I understand why, after all that I went through trying to get into that class and still had to bypass all that phone tagging mess and call Jim directly to find out the scoop.
John Wright
Parent - - By QCCWI (***) Date 09-12-2005 10:12
Let's see how do I put this. First lets dicsuss my Quality Control Department.I have a CWI in my department(ME).I have a level II Mag Particle Inspector(ME).I have the guy who checks paint(ME).What I am trying to say is that if 100 tons of steel or more come in the door,I get to look at every weld,every piece at least once.Sometimes time is not on my side. I am a level I UT, I can watch the screen and do the math.


If you have 2 welders welding full penetration welds,and both welds say 35 welds.You check 25 of welder 1's welds and none of them fail. At the same time you check 25 of welder 2's welds and 8 of them fail. If you only have time to check 10 more welds with UT before the outside inspector arrives which 10 would it be?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-12-2005 11:52
QCCWI,
Isn't that the way it always works? It's always the weld that got away, that gets caught. I can understand your frustration, as I am in a similar boat with you at a shop with 50+ welders and fitters to inspect behind. Time is short for all of us,...now add Safety Management, and Evironmental Compliance to your plate and you'll see why I'm discouraged at times when it all piles up and there seemed to be no light at the end of the tunnel.
OK, short story......I have to laugh when I think about when the AISC auditor came for an audit two years ago. He was there sitting in our lobby waiting for me at the same time an OSHA compliance officer walks in the door "unannounced" to do an audit of our shop and asks for me. While I am being paged to the front lobby, these two guys over hear the receptionist tell me that she has these two guys waiting for me in the lobby, and I have a call on the other line from a guy from EPA who wants to stop by and go over my storm water compliance records.
UGGGHHH! :)
All in a days work, eh?
Hang in there , keep your head up and roll with it, it's all you can do.
John Wright
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-13-2005 05:57
My dad would have said- busy as a one-armed paperhanger with the hives.
Bill
Parent - - By dlmann (**) Date 09-07-2005 16:21
QCCWI: I agree!! If it is rejectable based on the rating then reject it and repair it. Who exactly is this guy doing favors for by attempting to accept/reject based on his characterization of the indication. There is always the chance this kind of thing can bite you in the butt later down the road because of the liability involved. There are a lot of UT guys and CWIs who can characterize an indication with pretty good accuracy based on its location in the weld when plotted out. Even then the rating of the indication takes precedence.
Regards, Donnie Mann
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 09-07-2005 18:59
This has been brought up before on this forum. Maybe some of you are not aware of AIT. They have a auto U.T method that you can see a 3D image on the screen. You can see discontinuities on the screen, like IF or IP or a crack and it's very clear. They use micro-tomo and phase array. It's very cool.
Parent - - By vonash (**) Date 09-09-2005 01:11
Yawn! This is a level I question on my test.
Vonash
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 09-09-2005 18:38
Please Vonash enlighten us.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-09-2005 19:29
Me too!
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-10-2005 00:35
Yes, I'd like to know more.
Parent - By - Date 09-10-2005 17:00
It sounds like you must have some stud Level I's, Vonash. I would also like to hear more about this.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-12-2005 11:55
What I want to know more about is that UT machine and software that Jim is talking about, that sounds like cool stuff :)
John Wright
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 09-13-2005 21:21
John,
you can look at one of these systems on the Olympus NDT web site. Look for TOMOSCAN III and you can see a little about the process. It's amazing how far this technology has come.
Jim
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-14-2005 00:18
Jim,
That is alot more sophisticated than the pulse-echo contact testing that I do. I'll have to spend a little more time researching some of these other UT methods to broaden my knowledge on the subject. Amazing how we can get sucked into our own little worlds of inspection and forget that there is a great variety of other methods being used. neat stuff :)
John Wright
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / UT Inspection Questions

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