Please, I need help with 6010 storage

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-02-2005 18:51

I can help a little.

As far as reconditioning is conserned. Rebake is not recommended with Hobart E6010 electrodes, or any other brand who publishes manufactures data that I saw. http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/Pipemaster60.pdf

Storage is to be dry at room temperature... Some *E6011 electrodes specifically require no storage above 130 degrees F http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/Hobart335A.pdf But on the E6010 nothing specific is stated.

So code work with the wet electrodes seems right out. Consider them to be ruined. But, your a school and I don't see why they could not be used in practice modules on work that won't leave the shop or require destructive testing. Why not use it on flat plate when teaching beginners how to whip? You could even use them in any number of projects (with or without destructive testing) to see what the differences may be when compared to unfouled rods. The biggest problem will be to find a way to make sure the ruined rods aren't mixed up with good ones.

Does Mr. Aguilar still teach at Laney? If yes please tell him and his son Dave that Larry the "old" welding instructor from United Airlines sends his best.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-02-2005 21:08

My personal opinion, (without qualifying backgound) is the electrodes should be just fine.

When I was a youngster, I used to even dip the electrodes in water sometimes as it seemed to smooth the arc out! DO NOT TRY THIS! It was tupid of me but I didn't know better at that time, but I never experienced any problems with it. Unlike low-hydrogen electrodes, the E-6010 series can take quite a bit of moisture without negative effect. Do NOT store them in a heated container, just keep them in protected from weather as much as possible.

By dlmann

Date 10-03-2005 11:26

Jon:
My company safety guru was reading over my shoulder while I was reading the weedend post's and I think you made him stroke out!!!!! The things we do when we young.
Regards, Donnie Mann

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-03-2005 11:36

Amen! Like I said, I do NOT recommend anyone try what I did so stupidly many, many years back, of course, I began my career in a shipyard in Seattle and we would have to weld with rain soaked gloves back then too... ah, if I only knew then what I know now!!!

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-03-2005 18:37

Donnie,
I caught some of our guys taking the stinger and placing it in a 50# welding can that was full of water to cool it while they went to the rod oven to load up another pouch.
John Wright

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-03-2005 18:55

HOLY CRAP!!!

By JTMcC

Date 10-03-2005 21:15

You "caught" them?? That's a common way to cool a stinger. What problem do you have with it???

JTMcC.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-03-2005 23:31

JTMcC,
I'll let you explain that one to the next OSHA auditor that shows up at my shop and finds one of the employees reaching down inside a welding can full of water to retreive his stinger and convincing him/her that this is a common safety practice.

For me it's easier to eliminate that practice before the auditor shows up.
John Wright

By JTMcC

Date 10-04-2005 00:08

We were talking about cooling a stinger with water.How did you get to "reaching down inside a welding can full of water?"
I work around intelligent, professional people that can be trusted around both water, and electricity.
I can see where having buffoons for welders you might have to be quite a bit more restrictive than I am.

JTMcC.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-03-2005 23:34

JTMC

Not sure if your kidding or not..

Here is what the National Standard ANSI/AWS Z49.1 2005 says about cooling electrode holders in a bucket of water:

11.4.9.5 Electrode holders and guns shall not be cooled by immersion in water.

It may be common. It is surely wrong and dangerous.

This formerly $90 Safety doccument is now available for free from AWS........http://www.aws.org/technical/facts/

By JTMcC

Date 10-04-2005 00:19

I kid you not.
You and the guy that wrote your "safety document" would really come unglued if you saw the water truck drenching the world next to a dozen welders on a right of way. Or worse yet, welders trying to finish a weld in the rain so the townsfolk can have their furnace running tonight.
I evidently live in a completely different world than you guys do.
Having said that I've never had a lost time or recordable accident in my 13 years of business. I've never butted heads with osha and only slightly with msha. But I'm sure we do things that would mortify the uninitiated.

JTMcC.

on edit: I've got a picture on my website of a hand in chest waders making a weld on 36" .500 wall, his rod bucket and tools are on a crane mat we floated out in the water. I'm pretty sure he dipped his stinger in the drink a time or two on that weld ; )

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-04-2005 00:41

It's not my "Safety Doccument" Mac.

It's the national standard for welding safety... Not law mind you but the source for just about every OSHA, milspec, state and city regs which are law.

I visited your nice website and It's safety page http://www.firstratefabricators.com/page4.html and when you say that; "We are familiar with and comply with OSHA and MSHA rules and regulations." and "Much of the time we are working on our customers job site, we will understand and abide by your safety policies as well as our own." I guess there must be some exceptions according to what your posting here in the forum.

It's your job and responsibility as a contractor, by law, many of them, to make sure your welders and their work are protected from the elements whilst they are saving the town.

I can't believe you and I are even arguing about this. The practices you are bragging about are indefencable

By JTMcC

Date 10-04-2005 00:57

U'm not bragging, these are common things in the outside welding world.
What would be the exceptions you reference??? There are none. We have no choice but to abide by the safety regs of the contractors we work for. It's their site, their ball and bat and we have to abide to get to play.
We weld on live high pressure gas lines, over water, at heights and in deep excavations, these enviroments differ quite a bit from a production shop. Sometimes the weld HAS to be made by some dude in waders. That didn't violate any rules of the world wide prime contractor we were working for. They even supplied the waders. We made welds leaning over the side of the safety boat on that job as well, and floating on crane mats too. There are no safety violations here, much less "indefensible" ones. I'm thinking you might not have much familiarity with our working enviroment.
I suppose the inninitiated might gasp when the welder first strikes an arc on a live line with 850 psi inside, but it's done safely and regularly. But, I'm sure that would be a safety voilation in your working enviroment wouldn't it? There are probably a lot of things we (and others in our business) do that would be a violation at your site, that doesn't make it a violation or even a hazard in ours. We are geared for the work we do and our safety record speaks for itself, we haven't been "lucky" all these years.

JTMcC.

By the same token there are those in other industries or segments of the welding world that routinly do things we aren't familiar with or experienced in or are not insured for. So we don't do those things. A good example is those guys fishing for crab off Alaska, I watch 5 minutes of that and I see a couple of dozen things that I would consider a gross safety violation, but that's their workplace and they know and understand how to move about in it in a somewhat safe manner. We work on the water from time to time, but my over water safety policies sure aren't the same as those fishermen. Two different worlds.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-04-2005 16:51

<crickets chirping> ;)
John Wright

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 10-04-2005 17:56

Well.... I guess I am beginning to be sorry I brought up the dipping rods in water bit, this seems to be getting a bit outta hand, perhaps I should be thankful I'm not working under your command JTMcC...

By JTMcC

Date 10-04-2005 20:50

You guys can sit in your office on your company provided computer and comment as you wish. But in the field we take the welds "as is and where is" many days.
We don't have the option of using a bridge crane to take the bridge into the shop and turn it over. If you cross a bridge on your way to work, or if you work in a steel structure, I garantee that at some point in the construction of that bridge or building that a Pile Butt or an Iron Worker or a Pipefitter or a Boilermaker made one or more likely more than one weld in a very comprimised position or set of circumstances. It's just the way it is in the outside world. You do everything possible to make those welds in a safe and sound manner, but the fact is that as I type this, an Iron Worker (more likely a few hundred, plus Boilermakers, Millwrights, Pile Butts, Pipefitters, Pipeliners, ect.) are making difficult welds under difficult circumstances, without being hurt. If they weren't willing to do this work then no building, bridge, powerhouse, dam, or pipeline would ever reach completion.
It's always interesting to hear internet experts hold forth on things they have never done, or even been around. Hard welds are a staple in field work. Every detail on every drawing just never does seem to come together, and somebody has to do the work because I garantee you the billion dollar job is not going to be abandoned because there is a weld to be made in conditions not "acceptable" under your shop safety practices.
Like I tell the hands weekly (and some times daily) "I'll spend a million dollars of this companies money to see you go home alive/well, and with all components functioning properly or at least as properly as the day I hired you : ) I'll stack up my number of hours worked (often under harsh conditions) with anyone in any industry in any country. NO hand in my employ has ever had a reportable or lost time accident, even out in the drink in waders, or hanging out in the wind 850' above the terra firma. Can your shop make that claim?

JTMcC.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-05-2005 01:42

JTMcC,
I was thinking about your post(s) and had to state that reading your post(s) reminds me a lot of me about 20 plus years ago. I thought I was invincible and safety just slowed me down and wasn't important to my company as long as I didn't get hurt or hurt anyone with my attitude towards OSHA and their regs. Well you know I only have this one weld to grind and my grinding shield is way over there and I have my safety glasses on and it will take me a few minutes to run way over there and besides, by the time I go over there and back, I can be done with grinding this weld flush. So I'm saving my company money by not wasting my production time to go get that shield. But had I gotten something by my safety glasses and into my eye, I would have cost my company a trip to the eye Dr. and time away from my production, and my boss would have had to figure out how he is going to get that work out that he had on my table for me to do, plus I would have a sore eye until it healed. Yeah, I've grown wiser towards OSHA and their auditors after going through several audits at our shop while under my supervision of these 130+ employees and reading about all the silly preventable accidents that end up in the safety flyers that come out monthly of claims that are in court across the country that particular month. You say that I have no idea about the real wide world out there as you put it, but I feel that I am more in the know than you think. I feel that you are not fully aware of what "can happen" and about how many companies are facing big fines and citations. I see lots articles about companies that operate like yours on a monthly basis that are facing huge fines and lawsuits. Do you realize that OSHA can now file criminal charges against you as the owner for things like you have described having your workers do on this forum. Many owners like yourself have never had to face OSHA in court or had to comfort family members at the hospital due to getting the job done at all costs, but statistics will catch up if you keep playing against the odds. I don't believe there is any job worth doing that can't be done safely. With that said, I assume you have documented that safety training in your file where you instructed that guy in the waders on how to safely perform that task and discussed all the do's and don'ts associated and have his signature on that document where he read and understood the instructions. OSHA will audit these to make sure that you aren't just an accident waiting to happen and as you say, just lucky in the 13 years of business. "If" something had gone wrong (and it don't have to be your fault) when that guy was welding while standing in water, can you show the widow proof positive that you did everything you could to make that task as safe as possible and he was instructed on how to do that task properly? You claim you never had any loss time accidents in your 13 years of business, but how many "near misses" have you had? Don't tell me, I don't care to know, but be honest with yourself as you ask yourself that question, because it is a true indicator of whether or not you are safety conscience or just plain lucky. Maybe you do go out of your way to provide a safe environment for your people, but to hear your comments on here really makes a person wonder. My company falls under the General Industry part of the 1910 regulations where your work falls under another category(1926? I think). So we aren't exactly in the same category, and the category I think you fall into has higher percentages for getting seriously hurt due to the nature of the work. But companies that do not have safety in mind really drive those numbers higher and that is why OSHA is hard on companies in these lawsuit happy days we live in. Just how bad of an accident do you need to have happen before you have to close your doors? Think about that $ figure and ask yourself is it worth it to take that chance. Might get away with it, might not, but can you afford it if you don't get away with it? You need to take a business course if you can't see the economics of working with OSHA vs. against them.
John Wright

By JTMcC

Date 10-05-2005 02:06

How arrogant of an individual you are, and you make many assumpions on an internet forum.
As I said, to watch internet "experts" hold forth on what is standard practice in fields they have never worked in is enlightening.
To assume you are the only one to deal with osha is also an arrogant comment, I'm 45 years old and have worked in the welding field my entire adult life, I have an up close and personal relationship with osha and it's regulations.
The guy in the waders (and just because you've never heard of it, or seen it, doesn't mean it's an unsafe practice, we use divers for crying out loud at times, how does a diver welding 15' under water fit into your "near miss" thinking, it's done, it's done regularly, it's standard industry wide practice, it's done with the osha inspector standing there watching and it's done safely all the time. But probably not in your shop.) is my brother for crying out loud, and he and his wife spend a considerable amount of time in my home. That weld would have been made no differently with an osha inspector standing there watching. I'll repeat that, the man welding the pipe splice in waders would have made the weld exactly as he did even with the osha inspector standing 20 feet away watching.
Like I said, we get the welds as is-where is. And we make them safely.
Your inference that I do unsafe work and am liable for criminal prosecution thru osha or any other body borders on libel. If you don't understand the rules we work under then you're better off not making those accusations in a public forum because I take that semi slander very serious.

JTMcC.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-05-2005 02:49

Mc

Nobody has given you guff about building bridges, making hot taps or welding whilst standing in water. Nobody was arrogant, they were only disturbed by what you yourself described as "common practices."

You were specifically called to task when somebody was shocked at cooling a stinger in water and your responce was "That's a common way to cool a stinger. "

Well for a guy that spends "Millions" on his welders why can't you get a couple of extra stingers and quick disconnects for about $30 and be compliant with code?

Then you said;

"I work around intelligent, professional people that can be trusted around both water, and electricity.
I can see where having buffoons for welders you might have to be quite a bit more restrictive than I am." ....... I'm beginning to see a pattern of baffonery alright.

Before you edited another post, you also provided advice about what to do when a number welders encounter porosity...... You mentioned your common practice of filling a can of electrodes with water and having them drain overnight, because 6010 electrodes need a certain amount of moisture...... This from a guy who has millions to spend on his welders and equipping them.... Nice... I suppose we can't crane up a bridge and have it delivered into the shop... but maybe with a fat wallet like yours you could get an electrode distributer to high tail it out to the job site overnight and provide a new batch of rods....... Naah.. lets just soak the electrodes. Yes, the highest standards

And you suggest other welders are untrained bufoons, arrogent and not in the real world.

Nobody has libled you.... If you directed welders to do what you say you have done, as common practice on a bridge or a cross country pipeline It's you that would be held liable.

By JTMcC

Date 10-05-2005 03:19

Indeed, it is a common way to cool a stinger.

"for a guy who spends millions on his welders"
"for a guy who spends millions on his welders and equiping them"
"with a fat wallet like yours"
it's a common figure of speech, I certainly didn't invent it, but I say it a lot, I'll spend a million dollars of this companies money to save your little finger, kudos to the man who originally said it because I like the sentiment and will continue to use it. Maybe you haven't heard it before and got the impression that I literally spend millions on the primodonna welders, I would if I had it, but I don't ; )

As far as the filling of rod cans with water and then draining overnight, I've never done it myself but like most pipeliners my age I know guys that have (I didn't edit that post, it's still there for all the world to see, look for yourself I don't know where you got that). I believe it was the Lincoln recomendation in the "old days". Of course they also sent cans to Lincoln for analysis, Lincoln works pretty close with the large pipeline operators. But I've never done it myself. You assume a lot.

I see you are a teacher in a community college (and in relation to your multiple "millions" comment, I'm pretty sure community college welding teachers make more $$$ than I), maybe the work I describe falls outside your experience but rest assured I don't describe methods I've made up all by my little old self, but things done industry wide. Like I said, even when the osha inspector is standing there, or the msha or dot or corp commission inspector as well.

JTMcC.

By JTMcC

Date 10-05-2005 03:59

As for "directing" my Bro into welding in waders, I was on a job in another state that day. He has quite a bit more experience than I (and he has over 36 years with no recordable/lost time wrecks, several years more than me) working in wet and semi wet conditions, and was running that job as he saw fit. Docks, wharfs and piers are built this way quite often (no not by me, by large contractors), even in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia where safety regs are more strict than the federal rules. So I can't take credit for that one, even tho I'd like too ; )

JTMcC.

By JTMcC

Date 10-05-2005 02:15

If you thought you were "invincible" and that safety "slowed you down" then you were an idiot. And wouldn't have been hired, or if hired wouldn't have lasted a day with us. Nobody grinds here without proper gear, period. I've known since the day I went to work in a hazardous enviroment (non welding) that I wanted to retire with all parts working even with people shooting at me. We do work that is some times dangerous, that's a fact of life. We do it as safely as possible, all the time everytime and I'm not going to let some idiot on the internet impune our safety practices. You speak of things you don't understand and that can be a big mistake.
Some work requires quite a bit more risk than you seem to be comfortable with, but that work is done nonetheless. I have relatives that are high voltage linemen that work while sitting on a platform attached to a hovering helicopter, you'd just come completely unglued if you saw them doing their 9 to 5. But they seem to get by OK. I have other relatives that jump out of C-141's with a machine gun. And shoot at people that are shooting back. How can this be??

JTMcC.

By JTMcC

Date 10-03-2005 21:14

Have you or your "company safety guru" ever worked in an industry where these rods are used daily? If you had you would have seen or at least heard of the practice of punching holes in the new can of rod, filling the can with water and then turning it upside down to drain overnight. This is used at times when a job wide (meaning it's not one or a few welders) problem comes up like pinholes, ect. cellulose rods REQUIRE an adequate amount of moisture to function properly. Too dry and you have problems. This of course dosen't relate to the structural welding world, but is real nonetheless.
I'm really wondering just what safety problem exists here that your "safety guru" would become so high centered over.
it's a big broad welding world out there.

JTMcC.

By techwelder Date 10-03-2005 18:10

I am the Welding Instructor at Southeastern Technical College in Vidalia, GA. Just spread them out and let them dry somewhere preferably free from moisture and let your students use them for practice. They may have a little trouble getting them to start but they should be alright for general practice.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 10-04-2005 18:10

According to ASME Section II Part C-Specifications for Welding Rods, Electrodes and Filler Metals; A6.11 Electrode Covering Moisture Content and Conditioning: A611.4 Cellulose coverings for E6010 and E6011 electrodes need moisture levels of 3% to 7% for proper operation; therefore, storage or conditioning above ambient temperature may dry them too much and adversely affect their operation. Table A2 of Section II states that holding ovens are not recommended and drying conditions are also not recommended.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 10-05-2005 03:09

1- Find a tree with a hornets nest.
2- Stand back a ways and see if you can throw some of them in such a way as to stick them through the hornets nest.
3- Judge whether that creats a bigger fuss than just created here.

Sorry folks, sometimes I just can't resist.

Bill

By JTMcC

Date 10-05-2005 03:40

I've certainly, and inadvertantly, stirred the wrath of a couple, that's for sure.
I'm headed for Nevada tomorrow A.M. so I'll leave it to them to bash me thoroughly throughout the day<grinning>.

JTMcC.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-05-2005 11:48

JT,
Hang on for a minute and calm down. Never was it my intent to bash you or anyone that works for you, I was pointing out things that you ("by my apparent wrong assumtion") were unaware of and really seemed to not care about because you have your way of doing things.
JT, you came on strong at the onset of this discussion with a disturbing attitude towards this one particular safety rule. A rule that has been penned down by someone other than myself and you acted like I am silly for stopping this individual from using the water can and remarked that I must have to watch closely over these buffoons that I have working for me because you think it is common place to perform this act. Then this discussion headed off from your remark about me and my people to how well you look out for those who work for you and I how don't understand what goes on in the real world. So who started bashing who here? I am not pretending to be a no-it-all safety genius, because I know that is far from the truth, I know I have a lot to learn, I'm sorry that you feel that I came across that way. I took your earlier comments to say that you and your people know all about electricity and water therefore they can do whatever they feel is safe regardless of written rules...ie stinger in a water can while the verbage in Ansi Z49.1 clearly says not to do this.

I'm done with this.....now I can see why the forum was so reluctant to have "safety discussion" as a topic, it spirals out of control like a polictical discussion with no real usable content. Lots of egg on our faces, JT, you do realize that the remarks flew in both directions, it wasn't just me slinging mud towards you.
JT.....have a safe trip to Nevada.
John Wright

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-05-2005 06:48

Hey Bill!
Well said!!!
I think I'll go back down to 900ft. underwater where it's relatively (a word that could've clarified alot in this thread) safe and quiet of too much chatter up here @ sea level ;>)~

Hey JTMcC! Why are you letting everything that some people comment about you or your safety practices get under your skin? I always thought that you were tougher than that...

I've been there and done that too but, I'm not going to assume that everybody in this forum has done what you or what I've done as a welder, and there are experiences that either yourself or I lack! That does'nt makes us any better than each other.....

In this Forum everybody for the most part tries their best to respect each other's diversity and expertise just as I and others respect yours!!!

There is no letter "I" in the word "TEAM" so, C'mon and join the "TEAM" FRIEND!!!

Another classic case people on both sides not trying their best to understand one another... C'mon PEOPLE!!! We're better than that!!! At least I thought we were.

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By rodofgod (**)

Date 10-08-2005 22:35

Hi All!

Coming from the U.K. which has properly the most restrictive safety legalization in the whole world! I can fully understand JT's reaction when "questioned" on his companies SAFETY policy! The simple fact is, whats is deemed unsafe in a workshop, might be the 'norm' in a site environment.

We all have a idea of whats safe and what is unsafe! But that idea is totally based on experience! It's very easy to jump on the 'safety' issue of any job! Anyone doing this will always win an argument! There is no defense against total safety!

Regards

By medicinehawk (**)

Date 10-09-2005 03:21

Get rid of the soaked 6010 rods and buy new ones.
The are not that expensive and if your company wants to save money then there has to be other ways. I am on a job where 6010 rods were ruined by humidity.....the solution was to buy more and store the rods in 10 lbs containers which could be sealed & protected (from moisture).
Any experienced weldor should be able to tell you immediately if those rods (the ones you described) by running them if they are any "Good" and my guess is........They are NOT.
I agree that rebaking them will not fix the rods either.

By Cbaron Date 10-11-2005 19:54

6010 rods are pretty cheap, and work well, if the environment is wet and irregular there are many alternative choices that can be made, some are even moisture resistant and yield a higher tensile strength than a std. E6010 Certanium alloys and Cronatron Welding systems carry these type of electrodes. they work very well for there application and for the guys that are going to say there not aws spec. well most can be approved for a specific application to meet or exceed aws spec. generally the companies engineering dept can handle this, but check them out at cronatronwelding.com

By welder6g (**)

Date 10-13-2005 17:47

You will find that if the electrodes got wet and stayed wet for some time that even drying them will just crack the flux and it will fall off during welding most of the time.Espcially powder coated electrodes.When electrodes may just get rained on during a ride home from the job site you can hurry and recook them and they are usually still good ,but anything that sits just separates the flux from the electrode.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 10-26-2005 06:37

Greetings all,
Have been reading this post with interest.
Thought I would add my 10 cents worth as I have had experience with shop, site (refineries etc)and pipelining as a welder and inspector.
I have welded butts (live methanol tie-ins) with one arm slung over the pipe while slurry ( mud and water mix) is oozing over the top of my waders.Every man and his dog (Police, Fire department, Ambulance, Department of Energy etc) are standing on the edge of the trench watching me work while water is pouring into the trench faster than they can pump it out.
I have been in a trench while an excavator is using its bucket to push or pull the end of a semi buried pipe into line so we can get a pipe clamp on for welding.That bucket slips and there wouldn't be too many bones left unbroken.
As Jon mentioned we sometimes do some crazy things when we are young but this was considered normal work and not anything special.
Pipelining is a very dangerous profession, always has been, always will be. It is the nature of the beast.
AS JT has mentioned there are many circumstances where if you tried to instill normal safety practices on a cross country pipeline the job would never be completed.
It almost seems like the old hear no evil, see no evil..... we don't care how you do it , just get that pipe from point A to point B.
I have never seen a safety officer working on a pipeline yet and would be very surprised to see one.
I did a job recently in the Central Australian gas fields where we were putting compressor stations in in the middle of the desert. I had approx 100 guys working for me and we had a full - time safety officer and were working to very strict safety standards.
The pipeline crew that were bringing the pipelines in to our stations must have broken every safety rule in the book, and it was all within eyesight of our construction site. I had a hell of a job explaining to my guys that we had to comply with all the relevant safety standards while there was no requirements for the pipeliners.
Looking back now I have some great memories of my time pipelining in New Zealand but I cringe at some of the dangerous positions we put ourselves in.
And yes, I did dunk my stinger in water.
Regards,
Shane