I would not accept it.
Based on QC1-96, the CAWI must work under the direct supervision of the SCWI or CWI. The CAWI can not work alone. The SCWI or CWI "has responsiblity for determining if welded assemblies conform to workmanship and acceptance criteria." (quoted from paragraph 4.1.3 of QC1-96) Thus, any work that has to be judge and evaluated must be signed for by the CWI or SCWI.
AWS B5.1-2003 Specification for the Qualification of Welding Inspectors, which is the basis of the certification document QC1, has a table (Table 1) that delineates what the associate welding inspector can do (CAWI once certified by AWS). Under performance qualification the associate inspector has no capabilities.
As always, this is only my opinion. This may be a case that should be reported to the Ethics Committee of the Certification Committee for resolution since this may have legal ramification assuming the work is being performed where a "Building Code" has jurisdiction.
Hope that helps.
Best regards - Al
AWS B2.1:2000 Specification for Welding Procedure and Performance Qualification. Section 3.1.9 "Acceptance of test results is the responsibility of the qualifier. Qualification records shall be signed and dated by the qualifier." And it goes on more but that is enough to get my point across.
AWS B2.1 definition of Qualifier. The employer,organization, or individual specified by the Referencing Document as responsible for conducting and supervising qualification testing.
I say the welder certification is valid. AWS does not dictate you have to be a CWI to perform welder certification or weld inspection. All you need is the knowledge needed to perform the task.
If I put a turd in a toilet and a plumber sees it. What is it? It is crap.
If I put a turd in a tuxedo and take it to the White House and the President sees it. What is it? It is still crap.
The card in my wallet does not need to say CWI on it for me to be able to read a book, give a welder a welding test, cut the test coupon into smaller pieces and then bend according to the book. If it looks like crap it is crap.
You do not have to be a CWI to qualify a welder. It might look better if the certification is signed by a CWI but it is not required.
ASME Sec IX and D1.1 do NOT require a CWI to certify a welder.
I would agree that the welder qualification is acceptable as signed by a CAWI PROVIDED the contract language or technical specifications didn't require a CWI or SCWI. In a nutshell, anyone who is "qualified" (term qualified largely understood to mean those having a competent technical understanding of welding) may qualify a welder. This means the shop foreman, a peer welder, an engineer or a welding inspector may qualify the welder. It is up to the organization performing the welding (and even more so, their customer) to decide which is appropriate.
That is the way I understood D1.1 to read under section 6.1.4.1 also. Thank you to all that responded.
I think the letters C-A-W-I are being unjustly viewed in a negative light here. The fact that a person is a CAWI shows he/she has demonstrated some knowledge of welding codes. They have been given credit for coming close to but not quite making the CWI cut-off score.
If the applicable code or contract does not require a CWI to witness or administer a weld test, and a company designated person is acceptable to perform that role, then a CAWI should not be issue.
Ask yourself- If the person had not put "CAWI" on the form, would there have been any question on the matter? How many qualification forms are signed by people who have never taken the CWI test?
Chet Guilford
I agree Chet.
For all I know the CAWI could have taken the test passed it with scores high enough to be a CWI but he/she did not have the experience required to be a CWI. He/she could have 4 years experience instead of the 5 (off the top of my head I think it is 5 years).
The only person who needs to be seen negatively is the CWI who does not know the code book he/she is working to.
By the time I know the AWS D1.1,the IBC and all the other books I have to know to do my job, an updated version comes out and I get to figure out what the changes are. But that is no excuse for not knowing the books I need to know to do my job correctly.
Guy's I don't know that there is necessarily a negative image of the CAWI, I think it more akin to that of an NDE Level I vs. NDE Level II.
In that regard, it may be difficult for the highly knowledgeable and highly competant CAWI to find work and also to receive the same level of "respect" as similar in the case of an NDE Level I vs. NDE Level II.
That's just my take on how the CAWI is perceived by industry.
The original post seemed to indicate that a CWI didn't like a CAWI signing the form. It just struck me that way because I have seen a similar situation where the CAWI was trying to use his credential. The
overreaction was to blast him for not being a CWI. Then it was determined that he didn't have to be. And, in that case, there issue would never have been questioned if CAWI had not added after the name.
I may have been reading more into the posts that is actually there. If so, sorry 'bout that. Either way, the points have been made.
Chet
This is not about NDE it is welder qualification; which is the responsibility of the contractor.
AWS D1.1 (name a revision) provides practical guidance and procedures for qualification testing. Observation of the welder and subsequent testing of the weld coupons may be conducted by any person with knowledge of the qualification parameters. Certification is also company/contractor provided based on satisfactory completion of the tests for qualification testing.
Observation of the welder and subsequent testing of the weld coupons may be conducted by any person with knowledge of the qualification parameters. Certification is also company/contractor provided based on satisfactory completion of the qualification test.
Best regards,
Vonash
Chet you are exactly right. I posted the original message and the whole scenerio was that an outside inspector ( who I am not sure is a CWI) came into my Structural shop and asked for the welding certs. Upon review of them he was concerned because they were signed by my QC man who is a CAWI. But in looking under D1.1 6.1.4.1 it is my understanding that anyone competent and with experience can certify a welder not just a CWI or CAWI. In later conversations this issue was dropped but now I want to know in case it ever comes up again.
This is only my opinion, but I believe your QC person would be better off if he didn't stamp the welder quals with the CAWI stamp. The QC1 document contains a "Code of Ethics" that the CAWI, CWI, SCWI agree to when they take the exams under the auspices of AWS QC1.
I agree that AWS D1.1, ASME Section IX and other standards may not require the individual to be certified through the QC1 program, but the individual that holds the CAWI, CWI, SCWI have agreed to the limitations and the code of ethics contained in QC1.
The employer has the responsiblity of assigning qualified individual to perform various functions within the company. However, AWS QC1 doesn't permit the CAWI to act as the responsible individual to "determine if welded assemblies conform to workmanship and acceptance criteria."
Again, its only my opinion; don't stamp the welder's certifications with the CAWI stamp. The AWS Certification Committee has determined that the CAWI is not qualified to work without direct supervision of a CWI or SCWI and can not perform those functions beyond what is permitted by QC1. Don't hold the CAWI certification and you are not bound by QC1 or the code of ethics and you can do what ever you want.
As I said, if there's a question, send an inquiry to the AWS Certification Committee. They will make a decision based on the facts presented.
Wow!
Best regards - Al
AWS QC1 was never intended to be interpreted the way you have read it. I find it hard to believe the AWS will say it is ok for a person with the basic knowledge to certify a welder, then a month later the same person takes the CWI test and the scores are only high enough to be a CAWI, so he/she is no longer able to certify a welder.
I think a CAWI has made it further than a lot of other people will ever make it. I would rather see a man/woman try to take the CWI test and not quite reach the goal of CWI than not try at all. So I cannot and will not punish someone for trying to become a CWI but only making CAWI and I doubt AWS will punish that person either.
Don't confuse the requirements of AWS D1.1 and those individuals that sit on that committee with AWS (the organization) in general. AWS D1.1 alone is not the AWS and there are a lot of other AWS committees responsiblie for developing standards besides the AWS D1.1 committee.
I don't disagree with AWS D1.1, they do not require a CWI to witness the welder qualification. That's their perrogative. They understand the nature of their industry and they have a balanced membership that represents some of the best minds in the fabrication industry.
However, I believe that if you are partaking in the QC1 program, you also agree to abide by the terms of the QC1 document. Nothing says you have to use the stamps issued by the AWS QC committee. Nothing says you have to take the CWI examination (other than your customer or employer perhaps). In any event, QC1 clearly states the CAWI can not work without supervision. The document, i.e., welder qualification test record, can be cosigned by a CWI or SCWI, indicating the later is accepting responsibility for the CAWI's work. That is perfectly acceptable under the past terms of QC1.
You may be correct. As I said, it's only my opinion and I tend to be conservative. I can only provide my opinion based on the facts given. There are other questions that could shed more light on the issue; such as was the CAWI working under the supervision of a CWI or a SCWI? I can't answer those questions, I wasn't there and have no direct knowledge of the situation. The only way to get a resolution to an important issue such as this is to ask for an official interpretation from the Certification Committee.
The welder qualification test record is an important document. Imagine the senario where there is a structural failure and surprise of surprises, the lawyers get involved and a suit is filed. I believe the lawyers would have a field day with this issue; an individual who agreed to abide by the conditions and code of ethics of the QC1 program knowingly violates the listed capabilities of his certification. What are those capabilities the lawyer asks? They are listed in AWS B5.1. Within that document, which is referenced by the latest revision QC1, the CAWI has no capabilities regarding the performance qualification of welders.
Again, my opinion is that the individual involved would be been better off not stamping the welder qualification test record with the CAWI stamp. This is a case were no certification is better than a certification that specifically says the individual is not capable of "certifying" welders.
Why would the Qualification Committee and the Certification committee place restrictions of the capabilities of the CAWI, CWI, and SCWI? There must be a rational reason. Maybe because there were complaints filed with the committees?
Gotta go. Spent enough time with this issue. Maybe the revision of QC1 that is ready to be released will clarify the situation.
Best regards - Al
So I guess you are saying the same lawyer who you say will have a field day with a CAWI, would be at a lost for words if the guy who signed the welder certification had no documented training or qualifications to perform the test.
I would be more inclined to accept a welder certification signed by a CAWI than by a "joe" of the street.
Don't have time myself to review, but.......
Here is what appears to be a new copy of QC1 2006. It may shed new light on this discussion...
http://aws.org/w/s/certification/CWI/index.html
http://aws.org/w/s/certification/CWI/index.html
The search engine on the AWS.org homepage really does dig up good doccuments.
803056 said it first. QC-1 2006 Paragraph 4.4 says it all.
"A CAWI shall be able to perform inspections, under the DIRECT SUPERIVISION of a SCWI or CWI within visible and audible range, and the CSWI or CWI shall be responsible for certifying that the welded assemblies conform to the workmanship and acceptance criteria."
Inspection Key word. No mention of qualifying welders or welding procedures.
In my opinion the defense's case does not hold water.
However, there is no reason to believe ethics have been violated. The CAWI did not lie. He just stated his certification level. I don't believe there was any criminal intent. But I would not accept the welding certs.
So you would reject certs signed by a CAWI. When I started working where I am working now the certs were signed by the President of the company. Do you believe the President of the company you work for would stand in the shop watch a welder weld, then cut the test plate and bend the pieces?
I am the Quality Control Manager at a steel fabrication plant and I do not care if every welder this company hires fails a weld test or passes a weld test. The President on the other wants all welders to pass the first time and if he had is way I would not even give the welder a test. He would be happy if I just lied and filled the paperwork out. And that is not going to ever happen.
So which would you rather see papers signed by someone with nothing to gain if the welder passes or fails, or would you rather see the papers
signed by the guy who only want to have the papers signed and in a file.
Personally I would rather see welder certs signed by the man/ woman with the least to gain from the welder being certified, than see them signed by the guy who will profit from the welder "passing".
I guess it like agreeing to have your appendix removed by an EMT that has had extensive training in first aid and experience in the emergency room, but doesn't have M.D. after the name on the certificate that hangs on the wall.
Bottom line is that the Certification Committee says the CAWI isn't qualified to witness and sign the welder qualification test record.
Best regards - Al
Or the other view holds that its like NOT letting a brain surgeon administer CPR because his Red Cross card isn't valid.
Which building would you rather send your children into? A building that was welded by a bunch of welders that were certified by the guy who stands to profit from the building going up on time or by a CAWI that does not care if the building goes up on time.
I am a CWI and I do not care if every building that goes through my shop goes up on time or if it is 4 months behind schedule. So maybe AWS needs to clarify who can and cannot sign welder certifications. I guess QC-1 takes the right to sign a welder cert from guy who ethically will not just sign a welder cert without giving a test but AWS D1.1 gives the guy who will sign a welder cert without a test the right to sign one. Imagine that.
Interestingly, AWS D1.1 6.1.4.1 does NOT list an SCWI as an option for options 1 or 2 but I guess one could sqeeze under thewire for option 3. Does that mean that an SCWI can't perform inspections unless authorized by the engineer?
Continuing with D1.1 (other codes may vary) the basis for qualifications applies to persons responsible for inspections of material and workmanship. Nothing mentioned about how the person signing qualificatin records must be qualified. The company is responsible for testing and qualifications and must pay the cost of resolving rejections.
I still maintain that there was nothing wrong with the CAWI signing the qualification forms.
Firstly, that is attesting as a representative of the responsible company that qualification requirements have been met to the best of the person's knowledge. Secondly, the qualifications required for that function do not require CAWI, CWI, or SCWI unless noted otherwise. So if not required, the credentials serve to indicate that the person has some level of training. Thirdly, the owner reviews and either accepts or rejects the records. Fourthly, the letters CAWI are not an attempt to defraud because they prominently appear on the form; either accept the form or not.
Chet Guilford
I would accept it provided there is NO requirement for the individual to be a CWI. Do what the contract says or referes to.
The contract requirements would BE the ONLY requirement I could follow. Anything else is just adding to the cost of the product without increasing its value.
There may or may not be AWS QC1 issues there but they are COMPLETELY Non Applicable to what is required for welder qualification unless otherwise specified.
Hi Guys,
I see both sides of this, which is why at work I have to send all of our welder's certs in for the customer's approval at the beguinning of a new job/contract. This is when the customer approves our welder's certs or asks for us to recertify. The customer reserves the right to accept them or not. We've had customers ask us to recertify any welder who has been certified for over 12 mos. Sometimes they simply want fresh certifications in their files, possibly to eliminate all the period of effectiveness paperwork, I guess. We simply do as they ask. Although, All of my certs have been signed and sealed by a CWI(me).
John Wright
edit: I have learned, the hard way, not to accept any certs from previous employers and retest all my new hires to save the frustration of trying to pass off those other certs.
I'll repeat myself one more time, as a CAWI, CWI, or SCWI, certified by the AWS under the auspices of the QC1 program, the inspector has agreed to a code of ethics.
When I have a question, I ask those people that are on the applicable committees for their opinion. I put this question to a member of the Certification Committee. His reply was that the committee has stated that the CAWI can not qualify welders.
I suggest that if you truely believe this is an incorrect interpretation, you put the question to the full committee for resolution. However, based on my converstaion with the committee member, it has been ruled on already.
It is a violation of the code of ethics that every CAWI, CWI, and SCWI signed when they apply for their initial certification and recertification.
Its not a case of what you as an individual feel is right, its what you signed and agreed to. If you can't in good faith abide by the terms and conditions of the QC1 program and the decisions of the Certification Committee, don't use the stamp and don't send your money in when its time to recertify.
Good luck to all - Al
Just to clarify. If I work for a company as a welding inspector or QC Manager with 5-10 yrs exp., I can qualify welders, as long as nothing in any contracts or code says that qualification shall be performed by a "certified" (whatever type of certification) inspector. So, without being a CWI, I can technically qualify welders.
Then, if I decide one day to try to get my CWI, take the test, and only score high enough to become, and actually do become a CAWI, I would no longer be able to qualify welders anymore?
Not knocking anyone's interpretation or belief or research, or anything, I just find it really dumb that a person can work for a company in a position to qualify welders for 5-10 years, and it be acceptable. Then once the person takes a test and doesn't score high enough, he no longer has the credibility to do so.
my 2 cents
I guess that means it is better to assume a man/woman knows something, but actually knows nothing than it is to test someone to find out that person actually knows a little about what they are talking about.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
- Voltaire
Voltaire seemed to know the human condition very well. An examination is our opportunity to show the world what we do or don't know. Then we have to live with the results. Fortunately, we get more than one chance to pass the CWI test. History shows that a good number of people take the CWI examination more than once before they pass it. The goal is difficult to achieve.
The CWI is a benchmark. Its not the end, its the begining, a way to measure one's knowledge of the subject matter. I believe you'll agree with me that there is no guarantee the CWI or the SCWI will not make a mistake. It simply means they have a better mastery of the subject matter, but to grow we have to learn more. To be certified as a CAWI, CWI, or SCWI means we are also held to a higher standard than someone who isn't certified. We have a code of ethics that is part of the certification.
No one forces you to become certified through AWS QC1. As pointed out several times by different responders, AWS D1.1 does not require the inspector to be certified by AWS. The inspector can be qualified and certified by the employer. There is no code of ethics to contend with. You are only bound by what the employer demands. You can be certified by the CWB. You can even be certified by ASNT, however, even they have a code of ethics that you have to agree to if you hold their certificates as a Level II or Level III. There plenty of alternatives for the individual that does not choose to abide by QC1.
I'm not saying I disagree with some of the observations made by several respondents. I do however maintain that if an individual is certified by the AWS under the auspices of the QC1 document, then that individual is bound by the terms, conditions, limitations, and code of ethics agreed to when their signature is placed on the application.
Best regards - Al
I was thinking it at the time...guess I should have wrote it too. I think if someone has ten years exprience of inspection and with welder qualifications they should pass the CWI exam. I just think it would be kinda wierd if someone was a QC Manager and qualifying welders on Friday, then goes and takes the test Saturday and only scores enough for a CAWI. Monday comes around and the QC Manager is no longer able to perform his job (inspections also). I know there is a long waiting period for test results. I was just exagerating on the time frame as an example.
As for QC1 and the code of ethics, I'm assuming that has to be followed ALL of the time. In other words, a CAWI can never ever, under no circumstances, ever perform an unsupervised inspection? No matter what contracts and employer's require. And a CWI ALWAYS has to perform as a CWI? These two types of inspectors cannot go inspect Farmer Joe's welding job on his fence post without upholding their cetifications? If this is the case, the CAWI could not inspect the fence post? What I'm getting at is a person who is a CWI is contracted for a job requireing a CWI. OK all is good with that. But what if a company needs an inspector, any type, for welding inspection on....furniture? Does this CWI have to still put his CWI stamp on any inspection documents? Bottom line question is, can a CWI where two "hats"?
Just asking.
Hey 803056,
You are way right of the center line; you may be crossing the yellow; on a curve. However, the quest is to provide expertise. Some guys call that a CWI!
My very best regards,
Vonash
I never said 803056 was wrong. I am saying it makes no sense.
By the book: A person certify welders all day long with basic knowledge, but a CAWI cannot.
Suppose a person certifies welders by the book for 4 years then takes the CWI exam and only scores high enough to be a CAWI. Are the welder certs still valid or not. Is the answer yes or no? It could be yes because he was just a uncertified person at the time. It could also be no, because I can say the CWI exam was not that hard and someone with basic knowledge should be able to pass it. If the person cannot pass it maybe I think he/she should not have been certifying welders to start with.
This is beginning to sound like NASCAR. Jimmy Johnson keeps his points but Matt Kenseth loses his points.
This is kind of intersting, and it points out why no successfull buisness was ever run by a bureaucracy.
JTMcC.
Take note. If you have a CWI stamp it only means you have the knowledge to find and interpret information that is contained in the applicable code and are qualified to perform VISUAL inspection only.
I does not mean you are an expert in Welding or Engineering just that you can follow there instructions and evaluate finished products by a
standard.
Inside the confines of a Company the management can call any body the choose what ever they choose when ever they choose. CWI or just plain Inspector. And if they qualify a welder he is qualified to that employers standard but not any where else. Thus a welder must qualify every time he seeks employment. If the company Markets a welded product then they must meet a Standard and there people must meet the standard but the Welders so called certification is still only good for that employer.
AWS D1.1 states in 4.1.2.2 - Qualification Responsibility
QUOTE:
"Each manufacturer or contractor shall be responsible for the qualification of welders...., whether the qualification is conducted by the manufacturer, contractor, or an independent testing agency."
No mention of any credentials of a CWI, or other necessary, or required.
Also-
If I witness a welder test, I state that I witnessed it. PERIOD.
The manufacturer/contractor signs the bottom line. That is their "responsibility".
Where are y'all getting that CAWI can't certify welders but a non-CAWI can? Both fall into the category of "not a CWI".
Hg
Now I'm confused. What's the concensus? Can the CAWI sign and place his/her CAWI stamp on the welder qualificlation test record if the CAWI was not working under the direct supervision of a CWI or a SCWI? Another parameter is that the project specifications or applicable welding standard does not specifically state that a CWI or SCWI certifications are required.
The bottom line is; does AWS QC1 apply in all cases where a CAWI, CWI, or SCWI stamp is applied to a legal document?
My vote is still no. However, the logic presented by some of the respondants is interesting.
This issue is important enough that if there is still a question about what is correct, it should be addressed by the Certification Committee for resolution and clarifiaction.
Great discussion gentlemen.
Best regards - Al
"Preamble. In order to safeguard the health and well being of the public and to maintain integrity and high standards of skills, practice, and conduct in the occupation of welding inspection, the American Welding Society SCWIs, CWIs, and CAWIs shall be cognizant of the following principles and the scope to which they apply, with the understanding that any unauthorized practice is subject to the Committee's review and may result in suspension, reprimand, or revocation of certification."
This is a quote from the "Code of Ethics" section of QC-1.
I may be taking it completely out of context, but the part where it says "....of the following principals and the scope to which they apply,...."
If the scope of the work you are performing does not require a CWI or SCWI, or a CAWI, these principals seem to me that that they would not apply, thus making it irrelevant to hold this type of certification. Meaning, if you get hired by an employer that does not require, and do not have any contracts for work that require this certification you do not have to follow these principals. Of course if do something really bad as an inspector(just plain ol' welding inspector), against these principals
I'm sure there will be some sort of ramifications.
Like I said, this is how I interpret it. It may not be the way it was meant, or the way someone else interprets it.
803056, this is not directed toward you, or meant to be a reply to your post. It was just last on the list.
Well I am agreeing with tito. It's only welding, not divorce or driving while intoxicated. No need for lawyers.
I tell my welders, inspectors, and engineers that people pay little attention to welding until someone gets hurt. Once someone is injured or killed the lawyers come out of the wood work.
I have a question for you and I mean no disrespect. Have you ever been deposed or on the witness stand because you signed for work that later failed and resulted in some one being crippled? How many men have you seen killed or maimed because of a failure of an inconseqential part or the inattention of someone operating a piece of equipment?
Over the years I've been involved in the investigation of five coworkers that were killed in industrial accidents and I've been retained as an expert witness for a couple of cases involving severe injuries. In one case, my client was awarded 32 million plus 8 million in interest because the welder and the inspector missed a weld. I was grilled by three lawyers that had two P.E.s feeding them questions for a total of about 10 hours. One point of contention was the issue of whether the fabricator's welders were properly trained and qualified and was the individual that signed the paperwork qualified to do so. Another issue was whether the inspector performed his job properly and was he qualified for the position of responsibility.
I believe the training for every individual seeking certification as an inspector should include fifteen minutes of questioning and answering for a mock case. Anyone that places his or her AWS issued CAWI, CWI, SCWI stamp on a legal document has to be prepared to accept responsiblity for those actions.
As I said in my first post, don't use your AWS issued stamp if you are not qualified to do so based on the job capabilities described in either AWS QC1 or AWS B5.1. As an employee, when required by your job, you can place your signature on any document you want, just don't use the AWS issued stamp unless you meet the qualifications listed in the two documents cited.
"It's only welding", say that to someone that serves on a submarine, or an ironworker that is depending on the integrity of your welds, or someone working in a petrochemical plant.
People's lives depend on the weldments I work on and those that I am responsible for inspecting. I take both my work and my certifications very seriously.
Maybe the work you do is of minor concequence. If that is the case, some of the responses I've read start to make sense.
Al
Man, is this a marathon thread!!! Al, I agree for the most part with what you say but take exception to the following:
"As an employee, when required by your job, you can place your signature on any document you want, just don't use the AWS issued stamp unless you meet the qualifications listed in the two documents cited."
With all due respect, a signature is equal to a stamp and neither should be placed unless the person signing or stamping is qualified to do so.
Let's not confuse the CWI Stamp with a PE Stamp, both have legal responsibilities, but personally I think too much weight is being implied into stamping something as being inspected by a certified inspector.
I work in the nuclear industry so I'm very well versed in responsibilities and I've also served as an expert witness in death cases... even if one is on the "winning" side of those cases they are never pleasant.
If one is qualified to do an inspection and the inspection meets the requirements, then stamp it or sign it and move on.
API 1104 19th.edition sec. 8.3 states welding inspection personal shall be qualified by experience and training for the specified inspection task they preform . their qualifications shall be acceptable to the company . of course there could be there could be other factors . willie
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