Is there a way to convince Supervisors and Management that there is a need for W.P.S for Fabrication and Repair. I have gone round and round for the past year or so about aquiring w.p.s or manufacture specs on repair work for heavy equipment and have been told that it is not cost efficient to spend time to call or try other means of aquiring these and convincing them that there is a set procedure for Fab and repair work. They have told me that i shouldnt need them because i fabricate and weld and i should know everything involved, there are many things i am still learning and my supervisor told me mabybe they hired the wrong guy for the job. I have been with the company for 3-4 years and seen many people come through the weld shop with few more years of experience and go within that same year they have worked there. What or how else could i try to convince them even though i have shown them what a wps is and can do as a guide line for work to be performed. anything at this point would be great to through in there face.
Hi ezmoneytrg!
I would have thought that the client would have insisted on some sort of 'repair' W.P.S.!
If a particular piece of machinery fails during use and a welded repair is called for then the 'original' manufactures need to know about it and approve the repair, not to mention the insurance agents!
If you bought a car off me and then had a small collision, got it welded up by someone who knew a bit of welding, gone out in it and had a major crash that caused death or major bodily harm, who do you think the insurance companies would blame?
Regards
i know wht you are talking about but apparently my supervisors and managers dont and hant a concern about it. i have shown them wps that i have followed from previouse employers but i guess there main concern is just getting it done if it is right or wrong and making there money. i told them that if i dodnt have any wps or writen istruction on doing further repairs for our clients i will refuse to do the work so lets see if i get fired for trying to do my job the right and proper way. IT SEEM TO ME THAT THIS COMPANY ALWAYS HAS TIME TO DO JOBS THE WRONG WAY AND NOT ENOUGH FOR THE PROPER WAY!
Personally, I would tell your supervisors that simply "welding something up" is no longer an option as there is a huge liability when it comes to the repairs. Look at all the material types and grades out there. How do you know even what welding consumable to use? Which, like RodofGod said is why the OEM's like to be involved to approve the repairs - so they have some control and minimizes their liability/risk. Most OEMs will give you a repair procedure (if its repairable) provided you can provide pictures to "show" them the damage, give them an idea of what happened and the units serial number.
A metallurgist cannot tell one grade of material by simply looking at it. They may have a good idea but they won't sign off on it. If the customer does not want to pay for the repair procedure or WPS then have them sign off that they were told they needed a WPS and they asked you to go ahead with the repair against recommendations.
The "old days" are gone. That the customer told you to repair it isn't good enough anymore. If it goes to court a customer can argue that they took it to a fab/repair shop because they expected the repairs to be done right. An organization that has no documentation to support the repairs or fabrication won't have much of a defence. How will your supervisors and management prove due diligence, especially without paper work? Ask them to at least talk to their liability insurance company - I'm sure they will give them some facts that will make them change their mind.
the repair or modification i performed was on 1 of our machines, i know that it doesnt mean there is no need for wps its the fact that the company is woth 6-7 million and u would think your own management would implement the wps but in this company the only thing matters is how fast you can get the job done. Exact words from my boss were IT IS NOT COST EFFICIENT AND IS REALLY TIME CONSUMING AND THAT I SHOULD KNOW EVERYTHING INVOLVED WITH WELDING/FABRICATING AND MACHINING THATS WHAT IM PAID FOR!
I would take your boss' response to indicate that you have the go-ahead to proceed with the creation of a repair WPS. He has now placed the responsibility on your shoulders to make sure that the repairs are done properly, so how can you possibly do that without the correct WPS? ;)
Good Luck,
John Wright
My comment to that would be this:
A properly developed repair procedure and supporting WPS is cost effective because it is designed to address the root cause of the problem. Repairing old repairs or creating new areas for repair due to an improper repair is more time consuming than getting a repair procedure or WPS. I'm not saying that the repair work is not done properly - just that if you choose the wrong filler metal or substitute materials you can strengthen or weaken the repaired area creating more problems in that area or cause prematurely wear or damage to other components.
As for it being time consuming to get a repair procedure/WPS from an OEM. It can be, but the squeeky wheel gets the grease and if you talk to the sales guy who sold you the equipment chances are they can help motivate the OEM's Tech. support people.
Has your company lost any bids by not having WPS's? An example I have here is that when we put out a request for a bid, there is a list of submittals that must be attached to the bid. This includes WPS's, PQR, welder qualifications, and proof of welder continuity. Once submitted to contracts, the submittals are routed to QA/QC for review to ensure that they meet all applicable specifications and codes required for the work involved. There are a number of well intentioned, talented and skilled fabrication shops that have not received any contracts from us because they could not meet these obligations.
I can recall once that a fab shop owner stated that it would cost him over a thousand dollars to certify his three welders and obtain WPS’s. He had a hard time mulling it over. A small shop it was and I guess $1000 was a lot to spend on something that he had being doing for years. Well he spent the money and I’m sure he’s made enough from us to justify that money 20 times over from us welding plain ol’ carbon steel things like ladder cages, machine guards, etc. The point is he wanted the work bad enough that he would change to meet his customers’ requirements and needs.
Like the song says “the only that stays the same, is everything changes”.
Regards, Donnie Mann
We have not lost any bids not having wps's. Most of our clients a have set contracts and have had them for years now and they seem to like the work we turn out for them being machanicle, fabrication, weld repair and entire machine rebuilds. I have learned form experience and have learned from an instructor Bill Galvery who has help me since i was 14 years old. I know how to get these wps's and i know it takes a little time its the fact that they dont want me spending the time to get procedures becvause they would rather have me doing repair, machining, fabricating or field repair work. I spoke to one of my supervisors about the insodent that occured Friday 6/03/06 and he thinks i owed them an appology for telling them that they would rather have me take all the time in the world to F- up a job then do it right the first time, was i in the wrong for wanting to do the job to the best of my ability and saving the company money? Who knows these days its all about how fast u can get it done.
Chet Guilford told me one time that it takes some time to get an oceanliner turned around and headed in the other direction, so be patient and pick your battles wisely. I think it was sage advice. Uphill battles are long fought battles, but in the end you can look back and say that you've made a difference in the quality of the product that leaves your shop. Trust me, I know a little about what I'm speaking of, our guys have proven to the powers in charge here that quality work takes less shop hours to fabricate (less than the estimate) and they actually make more money on the heaviest inspected jobs. The old mindset was that all that inspection was just wasted shop hours and added to the cost of the overall job....not so.
Good Luck
John Wright
I think that it will take time like u mentioned, but the lst person that worked here tried to do the same thing and he was let go 9 months ago. i just hope im not the next to go!
Sometimes it's like leading a donkey, if you get too insistant the donkey gets suspicious and digs in and refuses to move. On the other hand if you are gentle the donkey may just think that you and it have both decided to take the same path and will travel with you without complaint. You may have to lower the volume a little to get them to listen to you.
bill
As Bill already said, sometimes the best way to get the donkey moving is to make him think it was his own idea in the first place! That might take time but the wait is usually worth it.
Never forget that we are all in business to make money. That includes Managers, QC, Foremen, welders, and janitors. Managers have the responsibility of keeping the business profitable and don't have the time to see every point of view. The best approach to getting your point across is: do your research thoroughly, build your idea so as to show in dollars and hours the cost savings that can be expected, then pick an appropriate time to present it. (Remember that if you have just eaten a huge meal, you might be in no mood for dessert- no matter how sweet it is).
Chet
i talked to my boss today being 3-08-06 and asked him if i could have our parts guys call the manufactures and get wps for certian repairs we do often and he said he would like for me to submit it to him and go form there. it doesnt make sense because he has no idea but then again maybe hes trying to get a feel for what im talking about. he came from a cummins dealer and has delt with engines only, if this is what it takes thats cool. i guess i will just have to wait and see what happens. thanks for all your input
This is a positive response- your boss (whose job is to provide the things that you need to do your job) is agreeing to look into your request. It doesn't matter if he can turn on a welding machine (not his job) but he is in charge of things like budgets and to do his job he needs to do things like keep track of procurements. He may also be enforcing a kind of military courtesy, in this case "follow the chain of command". In this case, for you to ask the parts guy is out of the chain of command. The correct way is, you ask your boss, then if he approves he directs the parts guy. I think that it is now your turn, your boss expects some form of formal request (probably a memo) this should list the things you want and the source to get them from and briefly say why they will be helpful. Ask your boss or his secretary what the correct form of this submittal is. Be polite, be correct in form, have someone check spelling etc. Your handling of this may be considered to be the beginning of a demonstration of your future fitness for command.
Bill
Excellent reply Bill, I agree.
John Wright
By DC
Date 03-09-2006 21:17
Bill,
I read your responce, laughed, and must agree with your advice. Good Job! I also think this forum is intended to provide such guidance.
DC
I THINK YOUR RIGHT HE IS A PART TIME CHP OFFICER, THE BALL IS IN MY COURT AND NOW I HAVE TO LOOK INTO MY PREVIOUSE SERVICE REPORTS TO SEE WHAT REPAIRS I THINK NEED THE WPS'S. THANKS FOR THE FEED BACK IT HAS GIVEN ME A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.
