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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / ASME/Welding codes and ownership of WPS
- - By KGV (*) Date 04-11-2006 12:09
It seems that the qualification of welding procedure by means of PQR samples and mechanical testing is a very expensive method to qualify procedures and adopt them into your quality management system.
It does not seem to make sense that qualifications of basic materials such as S1, Group 2 materials (API 5L X56) welded to self needs to be re-qualified by a company when this type of materials have been welded successfully for donkey years (re-inventing the wheel). Why can a company not buy the PQR documentation and base their own WPS on the data. Then using the new WPS to qualify its welders?

What I am trying to establish is whether it is permissable to purchase a PQR with supporting mechanical test data from a reputable company and adopt to compile a internal company WPS that would allow for welder performance qualifications.
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 04-11-2006 12:16
It's not allowed.

At some level, perhaps ASME is attempting to establish that if a company can not (or deosn't feel like) making the expenditure to qualify the procedures, they should not be in the business of welding on equipment designed and fabricated in accordance with the ASME standards.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, that establishes that companies involved, have the capability to put fundemental "tools" in place. The line appears to be: "manufacturer's are responsible for qualification of WPS and welders in accordance with ASME guidelines."

All that said, you could explore the option of purchasing SWPs (standard weld procedures that do not require PQR) from ASME. It still costs, but maybe it would save you a bit.

Charles
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-11-2006 13:27
Chall, I second your posting. The ONLY way to purchase a workable document would be through the SWPS system. I urge the originator of this post to investigate SWPSs.
Parent - By jerrykroll (**) Date 04-11-2006 17:40
ASME IX does allow the use of Standard WPS's.

Basically allows to use them by doing welder qualification test to the WPS (unless impact testing is required by the construction code).

30+ WPS's allowed (see ASME IX - appendix E)
Parent - - By focussaint Date 04-11-2006 17:35
Can you give me an overview of how the SWPS works? My company qualified a WPS several years ago that I've learned follows the SWPS guidelines from Appendix E. I need to qualify another WPS which is also in Appendix E but I'm not sure how to go about using a SWPS.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-11-2006 17:44

Check this out and see what questions are answered or raised

http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/Sage%20Advice%20on%20SWPSs.pdf
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-11-2006 17:58
Great answer Lawrence! The SWPS process is not complicated but it's not as easy as just picking one up and going. Companies/Organizations must qualify at least one welder to the SWPS. The background reasoning on this is to assure the appropriate personnnel within the company understand how to implement a WPS, exactly as it is written.... in a nutshell.
Parent - - By focussaint Date 04-11-2006 18:00
That was a well written article. So, if I want to qualify SMAW Carbon to Carbon using E6010 and SWPS B2.1-1-017-94, I have to purchase the document B2.1-1-017-94 and follow it to the letter?
Parent - - By KGV (*) Date 04-19-2006 08:38
Would a company be allowed to weld using another companies WPS with their permission.
Eg. Company A has sent their WPS to company B to repair equipment that belongs to Company A.
Company B has welders qualified to materials, thicknesses, process and consumables that is required to weld to the WPS
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-20-2006 09:30
No.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-20-2006 10:47
Hello Jon,
I was quite amazed with your answer as I have been directly involved with numerous instances of this happening and after having a quick look through the code I could not see it mentioned anywhere.
I have worked as an independant CWI for company A (the client) who has contracted the work out to company B (the contractor).
The welders from company B have been qualified to the WPS's provided by company A under my direct supervision.
Then the work has been performed in accordance with company A's weld procedures again under my direct supervision.
I know this question should be directed to the ASME committee and not yourself but if I own a procedure surely I should be able to have anyone I nominate weld using my procedure as long as I maintain operational control over all welding.
As an example, I am a major engineering company with numerous qualified weld procedures. There is a small engineering company down the road with 3 competent welders but no qualified weld procedures.
I need pipework done for a major power station outage, some chromolly, some carbon and some stainless.Do I make this 3 man company spend thousands of dollars on qualifying all their own procedures that they may never use again or do I provide them with my procedures and supervise all their welding,
Your thoughts would be appreciated,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By welder5354 (**) Date 04-20-2006 11:59
I failed to see how this company can have competent welders, but do not have any welding procedures in place. So, what have the welders been qualified too.
Anyway, the easy way out is for you to put the welders on your payrole and do the supervision. Our union has numerous welding procedures qualified. We dispatch welders to contractors all the time, but the contractor has to have a duplicate of our welding procedure in order to keep within the guidlines on the codes. Keep in mind the welders have got to be qualified to the appropriate procedure. If we do not have a specific procedure qualified, then we bring in the companies rep. with their procedure and qualify the welder(s) at our shop to that procedure.
Hope this helps!
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-20-2006 13:33
Welder 5354,
The example I mentioned was purely hypothetical.
You stated that
"We dispatch welders to contractors all the time, but the contractor has to have a duplicate of our welding procedure in order to keep within the guidlines on the codes."
What is the difference between what you are doing and what I have been doing.The contractor (company B) has been given a copy of company A's weld procedures in order to carry out the work. Where the welders have come from is irrelevant.
What you have to realise is that this is an international forum and that there are other codes other than ASME, AWS and API that are being used around the world.
The example I gave of a 3 man company, they may have been qualified to AS 3992 ( Australian pressure piping) and BS/EN 287
( British/European pressure piping) but Bechtel come to town and they require ASME procedures.
What do you do, spend thousands for one job and then when Bechtel have left town you have to go back to the procedures that are recognised by the local authorities.
I used to do PQR's in New Zealand and have them qualified to 4 different codes (ASME/AS/NZ/BSEN) Talk about a pain in the ass,
REgards,
Shane
Parent - By KGV (*) Date 04-20-2006 14:28
Shane

I am of the same opinion as you are regarding the use and control of WPS's and their ownership.

In saying this, I understand that in order to "own" a WPS the qualification needs to be done to ensure the competence (both technically and physically) of the company to perform the specific weld.
Do you have any reference to specifics outlined in welding codes AWS / EN ISO / API etc. that covers this?
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-20-2006 16:35
Shane, I may have answered a bit hastily.

KGV's question was: Would a company be allowed to weld using another companies WPS with their permission. ANSWER: NO.

(continued) Company A has sent their WPS to company B to repair equipment that belongs to Company A.

(continued) Company B has welders qualified to materials, thicknesses, process and consumables that is required to weld to the WPS

Company A may subcontract the services of Company B and the welder's of Company B may use the welding procedures of Company A so long as those welders are completely under the supervision of Company A. Put simply, if Company B is willing to give Company A hire/fire authority over its welders in such a way that the welders of Company B are really seconded employee's of Company A, then the answer would be "Yes."

I know this is confusing, have a look at QW-100.1 and QW-201 to see if it makes more sense?
Parent - - By KGV (*) Date 04-20-2006 14:32
Lawrence

Thanks for the link to the SWPS article. It is very helpfull.
I had not really dealt with the SWPS system.
I see the light....
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-20-2006 20:35
Thanks Jon,
I was beginning to think I had been in contravention of the code for all these years,
Regards,
Shane
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / ASME/Welding codes and ownership of WPS

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