Deb,
Unfortunately, when the bean counters are one of the determining factors in deciding proper procedures and costs, things can go South. I will say this, this rod is not cheap. I believe, depending on the metallurgical tests you are required to perform, that you will have a good chance of not meeting the G48 corrosion test (or whatever test for corrosion is performed). I have also seen suspect indications on bend tests and PT examinations. But, as a last resort, it is still probably better than no purge at all. Depending on the level of quality you will have to adhere to, you might be prepared for some gringing or repairs. Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.
Chuck
Chuck, I notice that no one has jumped in here to share thier success stories, I think that says alot. The level of quality that I will demand is a sound weld, no inpimgement on base material integrity, to be deposited once with no repairs. Considering the expense to use this rod, and having to factor in almost certain repair work, the case can be made that it is not cost effective as a production tool. It has been my experience that repairs often take longer than making the weld from a fresh fit. Re-examination is also not cheap. My possition is usually "go big, or go home". That is to say the industry standards work perfectly, so just do it! Trying to wiggle around to save 10 cents is a fools errand; and invariably ends up with a poor product. Sorry I digress. Thanks again, Deb
Hi Chuck / Deb,
I am a little confused. I have heard of flux "cored" SS Tig wire but never flux "coated".Is it a new product or was it just a typo.
If it was flux cored (TGX) we used it quite a bit in the Pulp and Paper industry for closure welds on long sections where it was impractical or impossible to purge the lines.
It contains some nasty carcinogenics so all the weld procedures I wrote contained the requirement that welders must wear a half face respirator.
As Chuck has mentioned it is probably not recommended for certain applications, the root run forms a really hard flux coating that is a nightmare to remove if you have no access to the root.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Shane
Hello Shane, I believe that you are thinking of two different processes. The flux-cored SS wire is a flux-cored wire for use on semi-automatic or automatic wire feeding processes. The flux-coated SS wire that is being referred to in this post is an actual flux coated SS wire for use with the GTAW process, generally used in open root applications and most likely others. I believe that I have this correct, if not, I know that I will be corrected. Regards, aevald
Hello Aevald,
No I am not confused. I have used it in NZ and Australia.
It looks exactly the same as SS tig wire but with flux inside it the same as flux cored spool wire.
We called it TGX and I cannot remember what that designation meant but will see if I can hunt down some of my old procedures.
Regards,
Shane
Aevald,
I tried a google search of TGX welding and this was one of the sites,
http://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/welding/files/v4n2,5-6.pdf
Regards,
Shane
Hello Shane, I stand corrected and enlightened. Always appreciate new information to draw on. Regards, aevald
Hi Shane,
Yep, Deb is talking about a "coated" tig wire(not a tubular or cored wire). Check out the link that I provided, it is listed as a "coated" wire.
I've not used any of these products, so I've kept my comments to myself, but wondered the same things as Chuck has warned Deb about.
John Wright
By -
Date 04-09-2006 23:42
Shane,
You can refer to ANSI/AWS A5.22-95 for the Specification designation for the Stainless Steel Flux Cored Rods for Gas Tungsten Arc Welding. For example, R316T1-G. I'm not sure what, or if, the coated wire has a designation. I haven't seen it in A5.4, A5.9, or A5.22, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have one. I just haven't heard of it.
Chuck
I used that flux-coated tig wire on 316L stainless steel piping (Schedule 10) about 14 -16 years ago for 1 (One) week at a paper mill, a really big job where we were running miles of ss pipe. Putting in a root pass was difficult as you can imagine the flux floating up in the weld pool is like welding inconnel on a bad hair day. There were 6 or 8 of us who happen to get to try that product. IF things went right.....and you kept the flux on the inside of a joint after the root pass< the weld will look like a stainless stick rod in that there is flux on the weld which can easily be removed after welding. I think a welder could get good putting in a root if you gave him/her enough of a chance to perfect it.
Is it ( a weld done with this product) mechanically sound????? Who can tell? Even if you purge a joint and use an O2 meter tho make sure you got rid of all the oxygen you will likely have some failures using only argon as the purging source especially if you have miles of pipe to run.
As a welder, I thought it was a good idea (Flux-covered tig rod) and maybe if i had been able to use it for a much longer period of time, It really would have been cheaper than an argon purge. I don't know. AS far as weld integrity goes.........the mechanical properties are what they are in any stick of pipe or fitting so you would think that the welding wire regardless of what process is used to join something is closely matched to the base material, enough so that a weld is good enough for the materials that are welded.
HELLO, I THOUGHT I WOULD WEIGH IN. THIS WAS A BIG ISSUE AT OUR PLANT RECENTLY. WE HAVE WELD PROCEDURES FOR FLUX COATED TIG. ALL THE WELDERS HATE IT. AS SOME ONE ALREADY MENTIONED, THE POWERS THAT BE DON'T MIND BECAUSE THEY ONLY SEE THAT IT'S CHEAPER. WE LOOKED INTO FLUX CORED WIRE, WHICH WELDS 100% BETTER, BUT COSTS NEARLY 4 TIMES AS MUCH AS BARE WIRE. THE SAME PROCEDURE COVERS FLUX COATED OR CORED. I SAY USE THE CORED, YOU WILL BE MUCH BETTER OFF, HENRY
Henry, Thanks so much for your input. I am interested to know what kind of welding difficulties that you may have encountered. You say that all the welders hate it, why? Does is run badly, or do you just end up with a product you are ashamed of? When you speak of flux cored are you refering to MIG or TIG process? At this point I have not been able to get any technical information on the coated wire, even from the manufacturer. Is yours a piping application? How do the roots come out? Did your facility qualify a procedure for this application, that being no purge? I have also heard that the slag does not slough off the root, but would need mechanical cleaning. Any further information that you might share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks DEB
Well, let me see if I can answer all your questions. We weld mostly pipe. We got the flux coated wire for field welds that couldn't be purged (some lines in the plant are 1000' or more). We got the wire through Rockford Industrial Welding supply, who is our main supplier. The slag does not come off easy. You have to chip it and usually skim it with a cut-off wheel. We have a qualified procedure for it. I welded the PQR myself. I don't like it. It welds like you are using a coated brazing wire. It doesn't flow, it drips off the wire. You put alot of heat into the metal because you have to go slow, and wait for wire to drip in. The flux cored wire is actual TIG wire. You can tell a little bit of difference when you weld it, but it welds 100% better than the ohter. Also, the welders say that you can't get a good looking cap to go over it. We use the flux for the root, and bare for the rest. The cap probably doesn't weld right because you heat up the base metal too much with the flux wire. I hope I answered your questions as best I could. If you need to know more, let me know, and I will find out the brand of the wire. Have a good day, Henry
I've used a flux covered TIG wire in the past for a recycle fiber project, utilizing 304l pipe. I was completely unimpressed.
1. It is very difficult to see the puddle because of the volume of slag.
2. The root is covered in slag. Also, no root protection for any subsequent passes.
3. Time required to remove the slag before starting next pass. The slag is tenacious, to say the least.
For my money, "solar flux" would be a better alternative to flux covered tig wire.
I would rather use argon.
Hope this helps,
Dale Simonds
Slag is a byproduct of metal smelting.
This is a better definition from Standard Welding Terms and Definitions AWS A3.0:2001.
Slag. a nonmetallic product resulting from the mutual dissolution of flux and nonmetallic impurities in some welding and brazing processes.
Hope this helps.
fholt,
Tried to find a nice way of putting this.
If you don't know what slag is what are you doing on the American Welding Society Forum ?
Regards,
Shane
Henry,
The flux coated TIG rods I've been associated with is MUCH more than flux core wire. Flux coated TIG rods are not considered "bare wire". ANSI/AWS A5.22-95 Specification covers SS Flux Cored Electrodes for Flux Cored Arc Welding, and SS Flux Cored Rods for GTAW, not Flux "Coated" rods. I don't think there is a Specification for Flux Coated TIG wire. What procedure are you referring to when you say, "the same procedure covers flux coated or cored"? Flux coated is a TIG process and flux core is a semi-automatic (or automatic) process. Two different things...
WE have flux cored TIG wire, and we have flux coated TIG wire here. I will have to find out the manufacturer and let you know. I do know that bare 3/32 is like 5$ a #, and the price quote I got on the flux cored, which only comes in 1/8,or 3/33, I don't remember which one, but the price was about 33$ a #. The way I interpret section IV is that flux cored and flux covered is the same procedure.
OK, I looked in our tool crib and this is what I found. The flux coated is from Oxford Alloys like John said. It has a FC suffix. The flux cored is KOBELCO TGX-316L. Hope this helps
Gentlemen, The representative from Oxford Alloy has stated that the flux coated tig wire has no Specification. Keep the thoughts coming, please,& Thanks, DEB
I use coated tig wire all the time, it works awsome. (I'm a B welder in Alberta) Using coated tig wire saves so much time. It works well on open butt welds. I do one tig pass then fill up with stick. I've worked in both the food industry and oil industry with ss 316L mainly. You use backing gas for food. In the oil industry you use coated tig rod sometimes where people know how it preforms and will let you use it. I know that coated tig wire does not have a specification, but you will see that it works well on thin gauge pipe with open butt joints that are not in a process of which oxygen is flowing through the pipe. Coated tig wire is to manufacturing benefit. It is really funny how they can make a welding electrode not having a specification for welding in general. Try welding a 1/2 in tol on to 6 in pipe, you would have to have your CFM of your argon up so high that you would be wasting it. Whereas, if you weld it with coated tig wire, you do one pass with tig and then fill the rest with stick; this saves a huge amount of time (not having to tape off the whole pipe and rig up a purging plug on both ends). The weld that you make with coated tig wire is more than enough in soundness and quality to meet the customers requirements.
This is what I was looking for - Ted
In all this talk about the coated SS wire I have yet to see a single mention of the unprotected ID HAZ.
If you are operating under a corrosive service you might invest in a case of sponges. You'll need them eventually.
If you're looking for some economy take a look at nitrogen purging. I know that there have been some rails against N purging in this forum but I would have to wonder how N purging is worse than none at all.
Good point, my other post about fluxcore GTAW was in refferance to cryogenic work at an LNG plant. Just trying to find out if anyone had used f/c while doing cryogenic work.
I've never used GTAW-FC for cryo. But I do not see anything offhand that presents a problem. The issue of course is ferrite, and I can think of nothing that is inherent to GTAW-FC that would prevent 0FN.
The other issue might be non metallic inclusions which are part and parcell of fluxed processes as a whole, and which have a tendency to effect toughness, especially at low temps, but since FCAW, SAW, and SMAW have been used successfully for cryo I don't see anything that would fundementally prevent GTAW-FC.
It would all hinge upon how cryo, and what mechanicals are required.
Liburdi Europe. Sorry Jeff but, I'm exhausted otherwise I'd give ya more.
Respectfully,
Henry
No apology necessary my friend.
Besides, I still haven't caught up with some of the other stuff you have supplied in the past. There are so many opened ended questions on stuff I wanted to investigate and return to, but haven't had the time.
js55, like I said in my other post I have very little experiance in cryogenics/LNG. The company that I may be working with had the tanks put in by CBI in the mid 70's. I'm just trying to get a little knowledge in advance. I know that another one of their rig welders took a 2" sch 80 GTAW 308L all the way out. Some of the company welders took the same test but with GTAW root followed by SMAW. And the CBI website speaks of shying away from SMAW because of the ferrite level at -320. At least that's what I read very briefly. Thanks- Ted
Kobelco also has a flux core tig rod called TGX in various alloys ( 308, 309, 316 and 347 )
