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- - By JA (**) Date 01-01-2007 17:17
can anybody please explain to me when using (FCAW).......E71T-8,,,,,,,,why is it that every now & then these surface holes traveling length wise are running on the top of the weld , directly under the slag,,,,,50 percent of it in the weld , the other 50 percent in the slag.......they call them "chicken tracks"    "worm holes"  ect......

it from moisture.......?    voltage...........?    what am i doing wrong.......       ok guys , talk to me..................
Parent - - By Aldridge6670 (*) Date 01-01-2007 17:39
could be traveling to fast, bad wire,bad gas, what ever your welding is dirty. I found that running flux core  is hot real hot.you would think running that hot it wouldn't matter but I guess it does.I've had the same problem   "A lot of grinding" I always called them Termites.  I'm no expert but I'd say it's a light case of perrosity
Parent - By darren (***) Date 01-01-2007 20:09
   I have tried to isolate the problem and it seems there is neither rhyme or reason; completely random(even though it can't be). It is one of or a combination of the following: interrupted gas flow, gas being blown away, gun angle,dirty surface, too hot, too much wire, mill scale,surface protectants,or other things beyond my study, but the one like the most is an inch or two here or there of fcaw with improper flux within its structure causes these. We encounter it all the time and I've completely disassembled/reassembled the wire feeder and cleaned the weld area changed my welding parameters and it still happens. The only thing I notice is it seems to happen to some machines more than others and the shop I work in I weld with 8 different machines regularily and have welded with every machine in the shop(around 40). I was going to start a thread on just this topic; WE NEED SOME REAL EXPERT ADVICE HERE!

   In the same vein but slightly different what are the "freckles' that occur on the surface of the weld when the plasma dross has not been removed and the real question is why does it happen when the dross has been removed. Probably it is a carbon or oxygen problem of some sort but this is why we need the weld engineers and Q/C agents.
Darren
Sick of grinding and just want to produce not chase garbage welds.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-02-2007 05:00 Edited 01-02-2007 05:05
I call the little light foot print looking indentations "Chicken Tracks", and the the worm looking holes "worm holes".

With T-8, surface Chicken Tracks are a precursor to porority.  As you probably know T-8s are quite voltage sensitive.  If it is intermitent it is likely due to rising base metal temperature or the welder temporarly going to a very short stick out during the pass. 

If it is strictly excessive voltage causing the problem, the tracks should occur consistantly.  All else equal, as base metal temp goes up voltage needs to drop to prevent tracks.

These wires are particularly prone to showing signs of moisture pick up.  When the wire has been out for a few weeks at high humidity the first signs usually show when running short stickouts where there isn't much preheating of the wire before it goes into the puddle.  Whether or not amperage rise at short stickout is a factor I don't know.

Rust, paint, and tape adhesive all create havoc with T-8s.  The metal must be pretty clean before welding.  Crud trapped between a shop installed backing bar and the bottom surface of the metal can be a real bastard since there is no feasible way to clean it out.

Worm holes are most frequently due to wire speed and voltage relationships that are horribly out of sync, or more commonly, welding over slag (or water) that is gasifying below the bead.  With T-8s you can't reliably weld over junk, such as root pass with slag inclusions, with the hope of getting it back out during a back gouge.  The slag and gas will tend to just keep rising up into each new weld layer.

I did about 4 months of nothing but internal weld repair on a big UT job that was done entirely with T-8 wires and most inclusions were made in the flat position.  Welders travelling too slow, carrying too much metal, and/or running parameters that were too low were the main problems.

I love welding T-8 wires, probably my favorite welding, but they have their own set of ins & outs - hope some of that was helpful.
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 01-16-2007 02:01
Blaster,

I agree . That was a nice piece of writing
Parent - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 01-17-2007 01:12
Blaster,
Add one more parameter to you list of havoc wreaking situations for the FCAW wires mentioned.  That is the residue remaining from the sawing and machine coolants used in the fabrication process of components to be welded.  Just completed this week; an ongoing set of experiments of such with directly repeatable results.  This phenomena of worm holes and chicken tracks occurs quite commonly in the outersheild variety of wires too.  Outersheild is a favorite of many local fabricators in my area and as such is a problem faced by myself as an inspector almost daily.  With my greatest respect, your educated and well founded comments to this forum are appreciated and please keep with your additions as time permits.
Thanks!
XPERTFAB 
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-02-2007 14:53
I was going to suggest less voltage and less travel speed...been my experience those two were the main causes of these tracks with FCAW, when I found a welder running out of the procedure parameters.
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 01-02-2007 16:22
I have seen the same problems with FCAW.  As mentioned in a previous post, voltage and stickout are the most common factors.  Another problem I've seen with welders that are not real familiar with running FCAW out of position is dragging the cup on the flux surface before it solidifies.  This limits complete gas coverage and also gives the weld an odd surface shape.
Many welders that are not required to weld to a specific code or WPS often turn up the voltage and wire to get faster speeds.  Many of the powders and alloys in the flux can be vaporized or not inter-mix at the proper ratios when the settings are too high.  All major wire manufactures have suggested operating parameters that they develop for every position.  When you run outside of these suggested parameters without testing, you run the risk of causing more harm than good.  Most of these guidelines are found on the web and can be printed off for easy use on the plant floor.
Parent - By agong (**) Date 01-02-2007 16:59
E71T-8 is an all position self-shielded flux-cored wire, it runs DC-. The possible reasons for porosity are: Too high volts, too short the stickout, or wrong polarity, etc.
What's your wire diameter? WFS? Voltage?
Parent - By dasimonds (**) Date 01-02-2007 22:41
The best explanation I've heard so far is that there is a bubble of gas trapped between the slag and the solidifing end of the molten weld pool. IMO, it's fits what is seen. To me they look like a half a sphere. We used to call them "wagon tracks". I consider a "wormhole" to be almost the same, except a wormhole has a actual hole in one end of it, where as the "wagon track" doesn't. As I understand it, the voltage and travel speed combine to make it occur. Changing either one can make them go away.
hope this helps,
Dale Simonds
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-13-2007 14:04
JA,

please let me make a comment on, what I assume, being responsible for what you have described. Firstly I hope this comment may not be "too long", since my highly appreciated American friend Gary (the greatest salesman I know) said to me: "Stephan you are the most tremendous combination - You are a German and you are a Technician. And so do your answers look like!"

However, as often in arc welding, it is, just like predicated by "darren", a combination of many different factors. I hope you agree to me forbearing here on the intricate coherences going to deep into metallurgical and dross physics but - of course - being the reason for your "worm holes". However, if you would be interested in, after hopefully reading my reply, please do not hesitate to give me a short note and it would be a great pleasure for me to continuing my response by describing these coherences in another post. But firstly...

I had similar problems in (spray arc) FCA-welding of corrosion resistant base material, comparable 316Ti, for fabricating pressure vessels used in the chemical processing industry. At that time we have used a flux-cored "E 316 LT1-4" wire (rutile, or titanium-dioxide-type) coming from a very well-known German supplier. The wire's welding properties have been excellent, but when we have removed the slag from the Weldment we could find indentations been distributed over the seams area but more or less concentrated in the mid of the seams. These indentations have been unknown by all of my colleagues and welding engineers, too. The "traces" just looked like worms have been truckled through the molten bead while the solidification-period, and thus we have called them "worm traces". Due to the quality-requirements we had to meet on seam appearance, the indentations have been classified by the customer as "faults" and thus had to be removed by grinding or milling what means, that the seams had to be repaired in a costly way. This is now app. 17 years ago and was the first time I have been confronted with this effect. And it was the initiation for me personally to engage myself with this phenomenon and its physical causes. What we could find out in regard to the experience I have mentioned firstly above was, the main cause of the indentations was that the wire, been supplied by the German "First-Class-Manufacturer", came actually from Japan and had been shipped via the ocean to Germany. In combination with the fact that the high-alloyed wire was no seamed (was not possible to perform at that time) but a crimped one, and the fact that the wire-filling was based on rutile which is extremely hygroscopic, i.e. extremely absorbent to moisture, the explanation for the cause of our "worm traces" was simple to find. While shipping the wire-lots over the ocean the humidity within the storage place has understandably been increased leading to a very high amount of, by the filling absorbed hydrogen. Now... Due to the fast solidifying slag the wire had, and the very high amount of hydrogen been dissociated in the arc atmosphere, the melting bead has tried to dispose that amount of hydrogen, being superfluously, fixed by the metallurgical limits of solubility between the liquid- and the solid state of the Weldment. In most cases the disposed gaseous constituents - also hydrogen - of a liquid weld metal can pass off through and being resolved by the solidifying slag, so that the weld bead is properly degased. Therefore the slag must have a slight longer solidification-interval compared with the weld metal. It is understandable that if the slag solidifies before the weld metal did, all gaseous constituents which are being disposed from the weld metal while its solidification, but not have passed off through the already solidified slag, being imbedded between the seam's surface and the slag. Since the physical character of slags is minerally, their mechanical character is hard and brittle. Therefore the gas, being disposed and being imbedded between seam surface and slag, can not cave the hard and brittle mineralized slag but the yet "pasty" weld metal. Depending on what the balance of solidification of slag and melting bead (+ the size and geometry of the melting) is, the traces of degassing can be found as indentations on the seams surface. Thus they can be looking different e.g. like "worm holes", "chicken tracks, "worm traces..." or whatever the nice designations may be. Important is, from my point of view, that the traces can be shallow and thus no real "fault" or - which is much more critical and thus to be avoided - extending into the depth of the seam, being a kind of surface porosity and thus a critical fault. This again depends to the content of gaseous constituents being generated by dissociating the filler of the flux-cored wire within the arc. One of the very main reasons crimped flux-cored filler wires are not being used in Germany is the fact that, the longer the wire is being exposed to the "normal" environmental, e.g. shop-atmosphere, the higher is the content of humidity being absorbed by the flux filler (function of time and humidity) and thus the more gaseous constituents being generated within the arc atmosphere. I am almost certain, you may not find any German fabricator using crimped flux-cored wires for manufacturing high-quality components, without storing the wires in an appropriate climatic environment. Please note also the very interesting post within the AWS-forum, dealing with the variations of CVN-Impact test results, basing on the variations of hydrogen-contents of the weld-metal. In case of using flux-cored wires, anyway more or less exceptions in Germany (high prices of FCW compared with solid filler wire-electrodes), the fabricators mainly use seamless flux-cored wires being resistant against absorbing humidity from the environmental atmosphere, only cutting off the app. first 2" from the wire electrode's tip after longer storing the wire. These "critical" 2" may be polluted with moisture and thus, can generate porosity. Furthermore it is physically explainable what other colleagues, e.g. John Wright, have observed and experienced when FCAW and thus giving great application hints on your inquiry, dealing with the usage of correct welding parameters. I am sure, by finding the right range of welding-parameters (current, voltage, welding-speed...) it is possible to find the right ratio or balance, respectively, for reducing or - in case of lower humidity contents of the flux - avoiding the indentations. Using the right or appropriate parameters, influencing the quality of the weld-seam, means, finding the exact balance between everything you need to perform a sound weld in an specific application - o.k. welders skill takes also a great share of a quality of a weld - but however, also the quality of the "ingredients" to be used is crucial. Mentioned by the way and coming back to my experience I have mentioned on the beginning, the indentations in welding the flux-cored 316 wire, were only shallow ones and had no deeper extension into the welding seam. Thus they were no real critical faults deteriorating the mechanical seam quality. But, they looked no good and the risk remained they might be more than shallow and thus we had to avoid them. The solution of the "problem" came from the wire's supplier. While a period the applications had to be welded using solid wires, they have improved the environmental conditions while shipping the wire from Japan to Germany and thus no more "worm traces" and indentations could be found on our welding seams.

Oh, what occurs to me now, and after I have written my reply, I have not asked at all if you are using a seamed or a crimped flux-cored wire... Sorry!

Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 01-17-2007 01:13
Stephan, dude, where have you been all my life. with answers like that do i ever have alot more questions for you. THANK YOU for such an in depth answer. The wire I am using is esab 7100 ultra.(but had same problems with many others) the faults we are experiencing sometimes do have holes attatched to the on one end that do go through to the bottom of the weld (makes me think there is some sort of moisture inherant) also that some welding machines are more prone to it. when i said we need some expert advice not just conjecture and guessing, yours was the expert advice i was talking about. now thats some kinda welding kung fu
darren
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-17-2007 18:35
wer had the same problem with that wire. we adjusted the amps and volt for each welding machine a little differently and it went away
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-18-2007 05:42
Stephen, great post. So besides keeping the wire from picking up moisture, might I assume that the solution is to change the parameters slightly to be sure that the deposit solidifies before the slag does?
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-18-2007 23:41 Edited 01-19-2007 17:14
Dave,

thank you for your kind words!

Well, I guess the subject is a bit more intricate. I would like to try to describe what my meaning is what occurs when using self shielding FCAW-wire-electrodes. At least s far as I have delved into the physics of welding-consumables. Therefore firstly I would like to make a short skip to the ingredients being used for the filling of the wires, which consist mostly of different components such as metal-salts, metal-oxides, carbonates, silicates and other substances having different specific functions. From my point of view the mixing of these ingredients does occur in a "wizards cauldron" and equals - you may forgive me - "Black Magic" or better a "hermetism". But often - and also in self shielding wires - calcium-carbonate (CaCO3) is used, which is dissociated within the arc plasma into calcium-oxide (CaO) and - this is important - carbon-dioxide (CO2). CO2 is - as commonly known - one of the most effective shielding gases ever. The main aspects for achieving the "self-shielding-effect" for protecting the liquid melting-pool are:

-  Protection through Generation of (shielding) gaseous components
-  Protection through Generation of Metal Vapours
-  Protection through Generation of Slag

As mentioned above, the mainly generated shielding gas in using self-shielded FCAW-wires is carbon-dioxide (CO2) which is generated by dissociating calcium-carbonate. But also substances like titanium-dioxide (TiO2), calcium-fluoride (CaF2) are used for mainly generating slag. Alkaline earth metals like potassium-oxide (K2O) or sodium-oxide (Na2O) and alkaline metals like calcium-oxide (CaO) are used for stabilizing the arc since they have a low ionisation potential. Metal Vapours are mostly being generated by using additionally aluminum-magnesium-compounds and partially Lithium. These components having a relative low vaporization point (~ 1100°C), having a high affinity to oxygen and nitrogen and thus are used for an additional protection of the melting-pool. Particularly "all position" self-shielding flux cored wires contain - as far as I know - barium-fluoride (BaF2) which is, mentioned by the way, not the best for health, since it should be toxic, as far as I have heard. This is also one of the reasons these wires have never have succeed in Germany or the most European countries. You have to know, another barium-compound, (barium-nitrate) is also used in rat poison. But BaF2 is one of the most important ingredients for generating a specific "slag-system" enabling to use the wire in all position welding, based on the fact that barium-fluoride improves the »slag to melting-pool dissociation«, i.e. one is able to control the melting bead in a proper way.

The physical sequences within the arc-atmosphere are strongly influenced by complex factors such as the so called "vapour pressure" of the used metal-salts and metal-oxides. Since the alkaline earth metals (e.g. K2O or Na2O) and the metal-oxides (e.g. CaO) have lower vapour pressures than e.g. calcium-fluoride (CaF2) these components vaporizes in a larger amount and generate higher amounts of gaseous components for weld-pool protection. Calcium-fluoride again is additionally working as a kind of fluxing agent denitrifying the weld-pool. All these specific factors - touched here only slightly - are interacting within the arc-atmosphere which is determined in its composition by the amounts and shares of different gaseous components and by interacting with the molten metal of the weld-pool. The mentioned wires are - as far I know - not seamed but crimped ones. Due to the affinity of the filling components (in particular the basic components like CaF2 and CaCO3, comparable to basic (7018?) stick electrode covers) for humidity, it is assumable the wires filling has a higher content of dissolved moisture. But nevertheless, as all the appreciated colleagues - certainly much more experienced in using self-shielded FCAW than me - have already explained, the self shielding flux-cored wire we are talking about is also very sensitive in regard to correct voltage and amperage fixation. Here the Welding Journal has edited a fantastic article in its November 2006 edition, see also: http://files.aws.org/wj/2006/11/wj200611/wj1106-66.pdf dealing with the correct usage of the wire we are talking about.

My very own personal interest is in the physical reasons for the coherences resulting in problems like porosity etc. Well, due to the very sensitive combination of filling-components being responsible for sound protection of the melting-pool, generating proper ratio of shielding gas and slag, ionising the arc-gap, proper droplet transfer (which is slight distinct compared with gas shielded solid wires) and last but not least enabling the ability to use the wire in all welding positions, the wire is thus a bit sensitive in setting the range of voltage and current.

Therefore the subsequent example:

»Use a specific self shielded flux-cored wire electrode (formerly in Europe NR 400- H) with a diameter of 2 mm. Set a welding current of 195 amps. and a voltage of 18 volts. Now change the contact tip to workpiece distance from 20 mm - which is the "normal" length (for that wire) and you achieve a voltage drop over the wire length of 2 volts and over the arc length of 16 volts. Hereby you will achieve a sound preheating of the free wires-length, a "normal" arc-voltage = arc-length and a proper shielding gas generation. Now reduce the contact tip to workpiece distance down to 15 mm. You will achieve a voltage drop over the wire of 1 volt and over the arc length of 17 volts. Hereby the arc length is increased thus you have a too high arc voltage, achieve a lower shielding gas generation and a low preheating of the free wires-length. Hereby the danger of porosity occurring is increased. Now increase finally the contact tip to workpiece distance up to 35 mm. You will achieve a voltage drop over the wire of 3 volts and over the arc length of 15 volts. Thus you achieve a lower arc length (low arc voltage) a high preheating of the free wires-length and a high amount of shielding gas generation, but also a lower depth of penetration«.

The wire is relatively sensitive in variations of arc length which is influenced by the electrode extension when using a CV-characteristic, at least as far as I interpret the physics of those consumables. I do not mean that the melting pool is being solidified earlier than the slag, since under "normal" but "specific for the wire" conditions the ratio between solidification of the molten metal and the slag should enable sound welds. But by increasing or drastically changing the arc performance (rise or drop of current = wire feed speed and voltage), the coherences between the intricate sequences in regard of dissociating the filler components, the reactions of the resulting shielding gaseous components with the melting pool, the intermixture of slag components and molten metal by electromagnetic or thermodynamical forces (Marangoni) and thus varying degassing reactions of the molten pool + eventually an increased amount of moisture, been absorbed by the filling components of the wire, are out of a balance condition. And all out of balance conditions in welding lead to out of balance results, I hope you agree. There are so many examples for this hypothesis, simply to consider when welding temperable steels which have to be post-weld heat treated to achieve a balanced material condition for achieving the optimal mechanical material properties. Although I must repeat myself. I guess there is more than only one reason responsible for the "symptom" of "worm holes", "chicken tracks"... Mainly, and here I agree with all the appreciated colleagues, is the basis of achieving sound welds certainly the correct handling of this special wire electrode. Nevertheless, I guess that also absorbed moisture can contribute a higher or lower share to the amount of porosity and effects like indentations and "worm holes" etc. since this issue is also well-known in welding crimped flux-cored wires.

My very best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By vonash (**) Date 01-19-2007 02:23
Yep!
Moisture, wind velocity, cleaning, stick-out, following the WPS.
Best regards,
Von
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-19-2007 05:32
Thanks Stephen, I was able to follow the technical description, at least pretty much so.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 01-20-2007 09:34
Again Stephan, holy sh*t, you are the bomb! in my tiny little brain, I notice things like smoke generation, spatter, shape of arc, the mood of the arc, where the wire is burning off in regard to the puddle, slag coverage, slag release, wetting, rollover, these and other real time interactive indicators but to have someone tell me the chemistry/physics of it, you deserve a doctorate in welding tech. (assuming you don't already have one)
I use an .045 esab 7100 ultra wire and I burn anywhere from 23.5 volts up to 30.5 volts any lower and it's all globby and no penetration, any higher and she seems to boil. 27 seems optimal for flat but WAY to slow. I stuff a lot of wire in at the higher volts to cool the puddle. Is there a maximum you would recommend as far as volts so as not to create a less than optimal weld deposit?
you mentioned hermetic and your answer was hermetic built from the Cartesian (awesome), though I as an anal welder (a good quality in our trade) would like a more Cartesian and definitive answer, why do I get those "damn" worm tracks, some with holes and some without, (this site will not let me use the proper welder explicative without censure); Fully understanding that there is no definitive answer.
Dude if I could buy you a beer somehow, someway. You just let me know.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-20-2007 18:57 Edited 01-20-2007 22:57
Darren,

you are embarrassing me!

Thank you so much for your kind words but this is much more than I can accept, besides, I haven't really started explaining physics in depth! Furthermore, I am trying patiently to find out what occurs in arc-welding since I have ignited the arc of a stick electrode many years ago. Since then I wanted to know: "What's going on inside that bright lighted tool, called welding-arc?" And I am honest, I haven't found out until today, although the almighty god has allowed me to read and try to understand thousands of pages of sagacious books and to discussing with so many Professors, PhD's and Engineers in the course of the last 26 years of my life. And what I would like to tell you also is, I have had the honor and pleasure to visit the worlds largest Institute for nuclear research, the CERN, please see also http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html in Geneva just a few months ago. I have a (wonderful) friend being a PhD in Mathematics and he by himself again has a friend who is PhD in Advanced Physics - having a wife likewise being PhD in Physics ;-) - which both work with the CERN. Well they are currently trying to conduct there the largest physical experiment in the history of mankind. The ATLAS experiment to find the smallest particles ever and thus to proof the existence of the Higgs Boson. When you are interested in please see also: http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm

Well what I would only like to tell you is. It was a "fair" for me to discuss to these both physicists and an experience I have never made before. And one of the most impressive cognitions I took with me from these conversations was: "Until today, it is entirely not clarified what the "proton" - you know the positive charge carrier within the atoms nucleus - is! And at least from that point of time I was certain, no one could explain to me what an arc  r e a l l y  is. What we "only" have are scientific models of that what you have named "...real time interactive indicators..." (I like this your transliteration very much!). And so, be aware, you as a welder, a practitioner, doing your job greatly every day, are in the leading position compared with all the - however appreciated but only theoretical thinking - scientists. Since you have the feeling, been given by god, enabling you to control what no scientist was able to explain and understand entirely until today!

I am "only" a welder too, but loving my work more than anything else - excepted my wife and my son! I remember my wife once said to me: "You're having a mistress named "Welding", and I cross my heart and hope to die, this is the only one I will accept ever!" However, after reading so many fantastic replies, advises and comments on the forum, I am certain to be the least wheel in the forum's gear and nevertheless I am surely the proudest one by having the chance of talking with you all.

Well, coming back to your kind post or query regarding the "...recommended maximum...", respectively, and allowing myself to making a short reply on it. I do not know personally the wire you have mentioned but what I would suppose is. The voltage of 23.5 - 30.5 volt seems to be too high for this self-shielded flux-cored wire of .045" (~ 1.2 mm). I have a good colleague working with ESAB Germany since many years and what I could find out is, they are selling the wire you mentioned only in diameters 1.6 mm, 1.8 mm, 2.0 mm ( 1/16", 0.072" and 5/64") but not in 0.045". Furthermore I have once read a PhD-Thesis dealing with »Simultaneous Perpendicular GMA-Deep-Gap-Welding«. Here they have used four different welding wires for finding out their ability for using them in the mentioned welding-operation. One of those wires was a solid wire-electrode, two of those were shielded flux-cored wires and one of those was "your wire", not called "Ultra" but »Coreshield 8« with a diameter of 1/16". In the course of the investigations they have also fixed the "optimal" parameters for the self-shielded FCW. And somewhat seemed very interesting to me. They have also used two different welding power-supplies for the investigations. One was a modern transistorized inverter supply and the other was a step-controlled thyristorized supply. Depending to this fact of different power-supply usage, they have found different values for optimal use of the flux-cored wire(!). Whereas the 1/16" diameter self-shielded flux-cored wire had a parameter optimum at mean 26 volts, mean 180 amps. and 5.5 m/min wire feed speed (~ 18 ft/min.) when using a transistorized inverter supply. However, using a thyristorized power supply they have found an optimum parameter set-up at 31,4 volts mean, 295 amps. mean and 9.8 m/min. wire feed speed (~ 32 ft/min.). In both cases the welding-velocity was 8 cm/min. Please consider these values have been set for perpendicular and simultaneous deep gap welding. Nevertheless it can be seen and has been proven that also the kind of welding power supply being used is an important factor when fixing the parameters, i.e. voltage and current. O.K. coming back to the ESAB wire, comparable with yours, only distinction: being offered in Germany. The colleagues from ESAB recommend a number of different issues. And I would like to list those subsequently:

For 1/16"-wire diameter with ~ 10 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  130 amps.
-  19 volts
-  electrode extension: 13... 15 mm

For 1/16"-wire diameter with ~ 16.4 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  200 amps.
-  22 volts
-  electrode extension: 13... 15 mm

For 1/16"-wire diameter with ~ 23.6 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  240 amps.
-  23 volts
-  electrode extension: 13... 15 mm

For 5/64"- wire diameter with ~ 9 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  180 amps.
-  20 volts
-  electrode extension: 18... 20 mm

For 5/64"- wire diameter with ~ 11 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  200 amps.
-  21 volts
-  electrode extension: 18... 20 mm

For 5/64"- wire diameter with ~ 13 ft/min. wire feed speed:
-  230 amps.
-  22 volts
-  electrode extension: 18... 20 mm

They do also recommend a package of a transistorized inverter power-supply + a special welding torch. Please don't ask me what the specifics of that torch may be. But it seems interesting to me that ESAB themselves uses this special torch for welding that wire, isn't it? It is - for 1/16" diameter - furthermore not recommended to use the wire for open-root welding but to use it only for filler- and cap-passes with a mean current of 220 amps. and mean voltage of 23 volts in flat- and horizontal position and mean current of 200 amps. and 22 volts in vertical up and overhead positions. For 5/64"-wire diameter obtains the same in regard to open root welding and they recommend to use 220 amps. mean and 23 volts mean for flat- and horizontal and 200 amps. mean and 22 volts mean for vertical up and overhead positions. Under considering these values I may guess that the values of voltage you have mentioned might be too high. But I am sure there are colleagues on the forum, working with this wire also daily and thus being able to compare their practical experiences with yours, for finding out what the optimal values for sound usage of ESAB 7100 Ultra are.

Once more thank you Darren and my very best regards,
Stephan

P.S. I have been participant of the Annual Assembly of the International Institute of Welding, been held last year in Quebec. Please let me congratulate you for having the luck to live in such a great country. It was a wonderful experience to visit Canada! And who knows, perhaps, sometimes and somewhere I will have the pleasure to have a beer with you!
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 01-23-2007 04:18
if i were to weld at those parameters the welds would be horrible and slow. sorry for my lack of clarity the wire we are using is dual shield and it is backed by 75/25 argon/co2. if i welded at 8cm/min i would be fired. we do production welding and we run .045 at 30.5v and 300plus amps doing 5mm fillets. the only reason we do not pour on more is the wire loses its metallurgical qualities above that (i assume that it loses some at those settings as well)
darren
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-23-2007 08:54
Darren,

Heaven forbid you have to weld with 8 cm/min. and being - understandably - fired afterwards!

Thank you also for the clarification and forgive me my misunderstanding!

The welding-velocity - mentioned above - has been used for the topic of the PhD-Thesis I have mentioned. They have welded a 20 mm (~ 3/4" ?) thick plate (square-groove-joint) simultaneously doublesided and perpendicular in one-layer-technique. And if you are going to calculate the ratio of weld-deposit and welding-velocity they were able to prove the abiltity of the used gas-shielded wires (by the way, the Coreshield 8 has had the worst results and could not be recommended for this investigated application) and however could achieve a economical welding-procedure with adequate mechanical properties of the performed joint.

Nevertheless, due to it is (still) not possible to attach additional information (pdf's etc.) to replies in the forum, I would like to send you - as far as you allow - an e-mail containing some very specific and interesting information for handling particularly ESAB-flux-cored-wires. Also in terms of parameters...

Stephan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-23-2007 11:20
Hi Stephan,
Let me see if I can help.....with attaching a pdf file.
Attachment: HelloStephan.pdf (444k)
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-23-2007 12:31
John!

Wow! Once again you are astonishing me!

Not only by having the chance to read your great technical replies, but also a second time for giving me a perfect advice in using the forum's tools in a correct manner.

That's great!

Thank you very much!

Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By M-Squared (**) Date 01-23-2007 14:45 Edited 01-23-2007 14:48
Darren,

The worm tracks typically, (9 out of 10 times) are the result of moisture in the electrode wire flux (I think this was touched on in previous post). The moisture can get into the wire flux from either poor controls during the wire manufacturing process, or because of a poor wire joint seal.  In addition, moisture can get into the wire from inadequate weld wire storage in humid or damp locations or from no protection of the wire when it's out on the shop floor.  Flux cored wires should be removed from the machine for the night and stored in an oven or warm dry location > 70F.  When welding with low hydrogen stick electrodes (i.e., 7018) most if not all companies store these rods in ovens after opening them, and they do not leave them out over night and weld with them the next morning. In addition most codes require that after 4 hours they be returned to the oven and not used.  Most manufactures have information for storage and baking of their wires and should be followed.  Flux cored wire should be treated as low hydrogen wires (this is basically what they are).

To reduce moisture, baking the weld wire before use may sometimes helps just as with 7018. Using a slightly longer wire stick out will preheat the weld wire and help drive off moisture and increase deposition rates slightly.  This sometimes helps as well.  Turning down the voltage, which is reducing weld energy, is not likely to help.  Have you tried using a different wire manufacture? All electrodes are not created equal, flux core or otherwise.  Try Alloy Rods, "Ultra" and Kobelco.  I have had very good luck with these wires especially when I handle them properly.  These small steps should help eliminate most of your problems.  Most fabricators use the excuse that removing wire every night and storing it is a pain in the back side or it takes time.  However, they always have time to grind and re-work.  Go figure.  Just my humble two cents worth and I hope it helps.

Mark
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-23-2007 15:35
Mark,

great post and information, when I am allowed to say!

May I humble add to watch out when trying to "bake" "moisture polluted" flux-cored-wire-electrodes? Mostly the wires are afflicted with surface-agents for improving the wire-feeding-properties within the wire-inner-liner.

Due to the surface-agents can be combusted while baking, the wire's surface is going to be blunted and furthermore really bad to feed through inner-liner and contact-tip. Thus again creating subsequent problems, one should better not experience.

Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-27-2007 06:37 Edited 01-27-2007 07:03
Hi Stephan!
Are you familiar with this gentleman and his website?
His name is Ed Craig and his MIG & Flux Cored data linkis here:
http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_flux_core_data.htm

The home page for his website is Weldreality.com and here's the link:
http://www.weldreality.com/default2.htm

If you're not familiar with this person, then you must check these links out as I'm quite positive you'll enjoy the content!!! If you are, then I do hope that you've read Ed's short story titled "In the welding land of Myth"
http://www.weldreality.com/Land%20of%20Myth%202003.htm
because it's one of my favorite short stories - PERIOD!!!
Btw, Are you Familiar with Kobold Instruments in Germany?

Anywho, I hope you enjoy!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-28-2007 16:26 Edited 01-28-2007 19:02
Henry,

thank you so much for giving me these precious information!

Firstly. To be honest, "No", I have not known this great gentlemen before you have asked me. Wonderful information and I agree with you in a full extent "Welding in the land of Myth" is a fantastic but unfortunately certainly true story in wide fields of Welding reality today. Although I saw there has been dealt with lots of specific information depending particularly to the United States, their Universities, Welding-Colleges and the way to educate the following generations of people who should find a home in welding, I assume many of these things can happen all over the world in the same way and manner, unfortunately. Great stuff and I enjoy it!

But you know and please forgive me, I love the AWS Forum! Silly? No, I am true by my word, because the way of people coming from everywhere, having passion for welding and weld relating concerns, having gathered very own experience - short- medium - or long term - this way is - as far as I know - unique in the whole world! I can remember I have asked you all for your opinions about if it is desired or unwanted when foreign members of the American Welding Society may attend to this wonderful tool the AWS have prepared for their members to having a platform to exchange and share even these experiences for even "compensating" the lack of knowledge owing by - partially - "unfeasible" education methodologies. And I can very well remember the great answers and postings, the warm welcomes and best wishes I have received from all of you! Therefore once more "Thank You" for let me attend the communication of people - impassioned for everything what belongs to Welding!

In this coherence I have read a wonderful reply coming from "jon20013" on this years January the 12th and relating to a topic coming from "rebekah" and dealing with "Aluminum Shrinkage". Jon has stated on open letter from "Elia Levi" and there one could read:

»In particular, would you consider yourself an expert in the following important subjects that need be considered when you design for welding?

·  Base and filler material properties and selection
·  Metallurgy and weldability
·  Restraint's influence on stress concentration
·  Design of joint details for fatigue resistance
·  Design for corrosion resistance
·  Design for durability in operating conditions
·  Design for manufacturability
·  Process expertise and influence on properties
·  Need for additional thermal treatments
·  Finish treatment selection
·  Weld sequences and distortion control
·  Weld joint dimensioning
·  Formulation of appropriate quality requirements
·  Design for safety
·  Design for inspectability
·  Design for maintainability
·  Integration of design and procedures to ensure minimum cost
·  Use of weld and inspection symbols and pertinent notes
·  Use of appropriate code requirements...«

I guess this says more than a thousand words. I do not know no one(!) being able to know everything, least of all, in terms of the most wonderful thing - excepted my wife - I have been allowed to get to know it in my life - Welding! But now - after finding this outstanding platform "AWS Forum", thanks God I know a lot of great people more than ever before, being connected - or let me better say - being joined by that what drives us onwards - Welding. And I am sure, what ever I may ask now or in the future, these great appreciated colleagues who have welcomed me aboard will find an answer for my question, what ever it takes! I was so glad when I could read the final answer coming from "Darren", just a few days ago and dealing with a question he had, based on this very own topic of "JA" (worm holes, chicken tracks...) and what I would like to quote here again. He wrote:

»...started out with no idea and am down to a very likley and thats damn good.
thanks 
darren«

I do not know if I had the chance to contribute a tiny share on that reason which induced "Darren" to write so, but I guess, this is not the question. What counts is - from my very own personal point of view - that so many different people who have contributed to the topic have tried to find an answer on what "Darren" or "JA" has asked. And this - forgive me - is wonderful, or, to cite "Darren " again »...damn good!« I am proud to be a member of the AWS and having you all as my colleagues!

One little thing yet. On the link: http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_flux_core_data.htm , Ed Craig asked if it is Spray or Pulse what can be seen on the High-Speed-Image. Would you agree with me when I assume it is: »Drop Spray«? Firstly explored by "JILONG MA (University of Cranfield)" in 1982? But I beg your forgiveness - I might also fail with that assumption.

To answer your question regarding "KOBOLD Instruments". Sorry Henry. I am unfortunately not familiar with these instruments. I assume you mean the "Measuring, Monitoring and Analysing" instruments and not the "vacuum cleaners" coming from VORWERK Company. Also these ones are named "KOBOLD". What I could find out is, that KOBOLD Instruments is a worldwide leading company within the field of those mentioned components and thus certainly not bad in quality of their products.

Thank you once more and I am looking forward to many exciting and fertile discussions on the forum.

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-05-2007 06:13 Edited 02-05-2007 13:43
Hi Stephan!

Yes indeed! those are the folks I'm talking about in Germany and, they have manufacturing facility here in Pittsburgh, PA, USA also. 99% of the welding is GTA with the balance done by laser. Materials consist of 316L , 316Ti, CP grade 2 Ti & Grades 7 & 12 respectively.

Regarding your question as to whether or not the video in the link you are referring to is showing spray or pulsed spray metal transfer as a form of GMAW process which is the same question Ed is asking, cannot be answered accurately or with any precision because, of the lack of certain variables necessary in order to be certain that the video is showing only one form of GMAW metal transfer as opposed to another.

In other words, your answer is only partially correct by naming it drop spray or droplet spray tramsfer as they use the term @ TWI in the UK, meaning that the drops are fairly consistent & uniform in size as opposed to when transfer of droplets in the transition zone between globular & spray produce both small and large drops or globules, drops & droplets and even satellite droplets that may or may not occur based on many influences that make up the physics of both globular and spray transfer which include: The globular/spray transition is mainly due to the increase of heat input on the unmelted portion of the welding wire; increased current &  electromagnetic pinch effect & force, and the taper formation influences this transition by decelerating the transfer process; The geometry of the melting interface on the welding wire experiences dynamic variations during the metal transfer period, and it interacts with the liquid flow in the droplet; before a droplet is detached, the center of the droplet neck experiences extreme current density, magnetic fields, electromagnetic force and hydrodynamic pressure before the droplet has detached, and an unbalanced surface tension can in effect cause the remaining liquid to recoil & oscillate on the wire tip with the potential of satellite droplets being generated following the detachment of the primary droplets from the wire. So both spray or pulsed spray metal transfer produce uniformly shaped & sized drops & droplets, and are dependant on many parameter variables that influence drop shape, size, frequency of transfer, etc.  Many studies that include a variety of modelling methods, and experiments have documented the influence of these parameters in predicting the transition zones between globular, and spray transfer and more in depth information is to be found in the links below.

However, unless the frequency used, (whether it be 60 or 120 or more) background & peak currents & the time between pulses in producing the method of transfer is included with the video, and the speed in which the video was produced is also included in order for one to differentiate between spray or pulsed, then none of us can say with absolute confidence (with the exception of Ed Craig of course!) that the video in the link can be answered accurately! One thing is for sure, it is a form of spray transfer based on the question itself and the size/shape of the droplet can vaguely help us in determining what type of shielding gas "might've" been used due to the droplet axial pattern shown, and yet without at least some of the necessary variables, one can only continue to ask: "Is it Spray or Pulsed?"

Based on what I see, I would take a guess with pulse spray - although I want to reiterate that without all of the necessary variables I can only speculate from what I see from the size of the droplets and the axial formation & distribution within the arc plasma.

Here are some cool links & .pdf's that cover some of the aspects, modelling methods mentioned above in greater detail and would certainly expand in your own reference unless you already have such access...

http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/MMTB-0306-345/$FILE/MMTB-0306-345F.pdf?OpenElement
Here's the link to Wang's project with the University of Kentucky:
http://www.engr.uky.edu/~cfd/welding.html
Here is more in depth information with respect to the same study:
http://www.engr.uky.edu/~ymzhang/Papers/George%20Paper%20One.pdf

Here's another publication that was written back in 1988:
http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Eagar083.pdf
These same authors in the WRC of the AWS Welding Journal of June, 1993:
http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Eagar117.pdf

This one is a Brazilian publication covering Aluminum grades of 5052 & 4043 written back in 1991:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-58782003000300003&lng=es&nrm=iso

Here's one that has poor quality illustrations but the information is sound:
http://www.makinamuhendisi.com/mechanical/mechanical-engineering-archives/415-Gas-Metal-Arc-Welding.html

I like this study from GM Research:
http://gmcrl.engin.umich.edu/amsl/Publication/Modelling%20and%20analysis%20of%20metal%20transfer.pdf

This one is from Westinghouse Naval Systems Division published in 9/1989:
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA213390&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

I've got more but, I've run out of time to access more so, I'll post more later!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-05-2007 22:29
Henry,

first of all thanks for the great response - also in regard to "KOBOLD" - and for the very fine several links with regard to the topic you have explained. I will have a deeper look into as far as I have a little more time.

As you know I have attended as an Observer several IIW-Assemblies and Intermediate Meetings of the International Institute of Welding (IIW), »Commission XII« and » Study Group 212« (Physics of Welding), and thus I am strongly interested in particular in the activities of »SG 212«. Here are some of the worldwide leading and most experienced experts already trying since many years to find an international standardization of Droplet Transfers in Gas Shielded Metal Arc Welding. One of these highly appreciated experts is Prof. Danut Iordachescu, head of the Centro Láser-Universidad Politecnica de Madrid (CLUPM). And if I would be allowed to say, for me it is always an outstanding pleasure and honor to discuss with "Dan" since he is one of the main driving forces in regard to this effort and one of the strongest proponents of a clear and understandable standardization of the droplet transfer modes in GMAW - furthermore he is also a great human being and personality! If I may be allowed to say, I agree with him. Why? Well, I mean that all activities being carried out on the level of the IIW as the highest institution for Welding in the World, should also be usable for the practicioners, i.e. welders, welding instructors, welding engineers etc., all over the world.

Why do I tell that all? Well because I would like you to know, that we have sat together once again last year in Quebec as we have carried out the Joint Meeting of »Commission XII / SG 212«. Main focus of this Meeting, which has been led by Chairman Prof. John Norrish from the University of Wollongong Australia, laid on "Metal Transfer Classification" and thus the classification of Droplet Transfer Mode in Gas Metal Arc Welding. There have been presented several excellent papers dealing with the mentioned topic. Among them was a real great presentation coming from Izutani et al, working with KOBE Steel Japan, and the great Prof. Yoshinori Hirata from the University of Osaka Japan, who is - mentioned by the way - also the head of »Study Group 212« and certainly one of  the most impressive experts in physics of welding. The mentioned presentation included such a large number of High-Speed-Images that no one of all of us, has ever seen something comparable before, at that time. It was amazing. Izutani has presented droplet transfers and transitions of these, never been observed before, among them, images dealing with the droplet transfers of different gas shielded flux cored wire electrodes. The Japanese fellows proposed to standardize or classifiy, respectively, all these different droplet transfer sequences which would have meant that all formerly classification principles would have had to be overruled. We had wonderful conversations and discussions subsequently to the paper presentation and what I could observe was, that there were two different fractions under the experts who have attended the meeting. The more "practical" thinking and the more "scientific" thinking fellows - I can remember very well Prof. Yushchenko from the famous Paton Institute who is undoubted an outstanding expert of the latter fraction. Whereas in my chest beat two hearts, since I am a welder (proud of it) with heart and soul having welded for many many years of my life (which was undoubted the best time of my life), but I am and have also ever been so strongly interested in the scientific coherences based on the arc physics which making a welding-arc being an welding-arc! But however I have given my personal predication in favor of the practicioners since I am convinced that all my fellows in the world would appreciate a Classification of "Metal Transfer in GMAW" for using it without the necessity of studying physics! My predication was: "Let's keep it simple and let's keep it usable."

Please forgive me the slight longer foreword but I would have liked to describe what drives me personally onwards and, that I am always highly interested to be up to date in every action being performed in the field of Droplet Transfer Classification and thus also the designation of the different droplet transfer modes. I am "absorbing" everything I can find in terms of arc-physics.

Therefore I would like to answer your great post as following...

Whilst the mentioned Joint Meeting there has also been presented a wonderful - and I must repeat - a real wonderful paper prepared by Prof. Ian Richardson from the University of Delft, the Netherlands, his fellow Dr. Marcel Hermans, also Delft University and last but not least Prof. John Norrish, mentioned already above. This paper has dealt with the mechanisms of the so called "Drop Spray Transfer" and Ian Richardson showed us great High-Speed-Images of this Droplet Transfer very close and stringent comparable with what I could see on the discussed Ed Craig Homepage. That was the reason for me to assume it might be a "Drop Spray" i.e. not yet quite a "Streaming Spray" but not more quite a "Globular-Droplet-Transfer" and fortunately very good in limiting the boundaries of its existing range although many different physical forces impart him its specific character.

The first time this kind of droplet transfer has been observed, was in 1982 in the progression of examinations for a PhD-Thesis named "Metal transfer in MIG-Welding" been performed by Jilong Ma (at that time with the Cranfield Institute of Technology Great Britain).

Also the great paper - which I have already known indeed but nevertheless thanks for that - coming from Eagar et al, and what you have kindly given the hint for by attaching the link, is dealing with this kind of "Drop Spray" Mode and this has been prepared in 1997 by the MIT-people but not only by English Researchers. I allow myself to attach the section from that paper, where basically the drop-spray is being explained, see also attached pdf. And also in Quebec, within the paper of Ian Richardson the term "Drop Spray" was used and this has been presented in 2006. Therefore I have used the term "Drop Spray" likewise and only for assuming, this might be the droplet transfer observed in the High-Speed-Image on Ed Craig's website. A droplet-transfer being only existing in a very narrow range of current in DC-GMA-Welding operations where an additional must is also the extrem smooth and continious progression of the current (very low ripples). Jilong Ma has found out by conducting the examinations for his PhD-Thesis that the range for the existing area of a "Drop Spray" Mode when using a diameter 1.2 mm plain steel wire electrode under Argon/CO2-Shielding-Gas is only between 235... 270 Ampere(!) and this is - I hope you may agree with me - a relatively small range compared with what the daily practice shows in Shop-GMA-Welding. However, what I would have liked to tell you also is, that we have discussed in Quebec after Ian Richardson has presented his results, to include the so called "Drop Spray"-Mode also into the "IIW-Classification of Droplet Transfers" since it is a natural "pulse-comparable" conventional CV-existing arc- or droplet transfer mode, respectively. Well, there has been decided finally to avoid an integration of this very interesting, but also very sensitive and thus impractical for the daily welding-sequences droplet transfer mode. It has been decided that it should be sufficient to know there is a range for every wire or consumable depending to all the factors you have precisely explained (different physical forces, peripheral parameters...) and to which I agree with in a full extent. The "Drop-Spray" (or whatever) is existing - but only as a "natural miracle" or better phenomenon of plasma- or arc-physics.

And if I finally may cite what Dave Boyer has kindly stated in his post:

"...as to the spray/pulse question on Ed Craig's site, He somewhere says that this is at or close to the spray transition point before the droplets become fine as usually associated with spray transfer. Is that what You mean By "Drop Spray"?...",

I guess it might be a "Drop Spray" or what kind of term ever should be used for this kind of transition. It would be helpful to know if Ed Craig has used a "Pulsed Arc Power Supply" or a "Conventional CV-Power-Supply" for creating this High-Speed-Image which can be observed on his website and where he asks "Pulsed" or "Spray"? By the quotation of Dave Boyer (thanks for that), where he mentioned Ed Craig has said, "...somewhere that this is close to the spray transition...", I am nearly certain that it might be the small and narrow band of the existing area of - forgive me - "Drop Spray".

By the way, I am curious to see what we have to discuss in terms of "Droplet Transfer Classification" on the Annual Assembly of the IIW being held in Croatia this year.

Henry, once more thanks a lot, it's a pleasure discussing with you!

My very best regards,
Stephan
Attachment: Drop_Spray_Transfer.pdf (37k)
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-05-2007 23:21
Hello Stephan, you just said a MOUTHFUL, it'll probably take me a week just to come close to comprehend all that you have just said in this post. I mean that in a very good way. Part of your post hits on something that is very important with anything regarding complicated issues, if it can be put forth in an understandable manner where the average person can gain from it, then it is of immeasureable value. It would be nice to see many topics approached in this manner. My experiences with reading your posts is that you have a definite understanding for the very complicated parts of an issue as well as the ability to break them down so that many average individuals(such as me), can gain from them. I very much appreciate the time and effort that you have put forth on the forum and welcome future comments and information. Thanks and regards, Allan
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-06-2007 15:56
stephan,
your simply stated but detailed responces are a great refrence. i was hoping that you could touch on another fcaw-ss issue. i know that there are problems assiocated with smaw repair of fcaw-ss welds. i've had a difficult time finding a good resource on this. from what i've researched, it appears that the smaw will rob the fcaw-ss of AL. any input would be greatly appreciated. this has become an issue on the west coast of the U.S. in regards to seismic zone requirements
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 02-07-2007 20:13
Hogan!

Thank you so much for your kind words!

As I have written to Henry a minute ago, please forgive me for not having already responsed on your fine post, but I have (fortunately) lots of work to do presently.

I personally have an idea of what you mean - hopefully.

Give me a little more time to think about. What I mean is, I do not think that the SMAW is detracting Aluminum from the high-alloyed-FCAW-deposit. From my point of view Aluminum might being used for the slag-system of the FCW...

As far as no one else has responded until I'll find time (I am sure someone of the appreciated colleagues would have done so) I beg your patience.

Thank you and regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-22-2007 16:34
hogan,

good feeling being "back".

Most of work I have mentioned has been done and due to I have seen no one else has found time to response, now I would like to take the chance to humble reply your interesting post. I am honest, I have considered and, yes, I have hesitated a time due to it might be reasonable to write a relatively short answer. You know, the subjects matter is not so easy to explain and the balance between the share what might being necessary to describe and the will of keeping it short and simple by the way of description is a true "adventure". Thus of course - once again - I do honestly hope, to finding the right words.

Before I begin to write down what I am considering, I would like to inform you about three phone conversations I had in regard to your topic. You have to know, although I had to work and thus having had no time to attend the forum, I haven't completely been inactive intermediately. I know personally the head of the R&D-Department of »BOEHLER Welding« in Austria. As you certainly know, »BOEHLER« is one of the worldwide leading companies in manufacturing high-alloyed welding-consumables, and in particular also high-alloyed flux-cored-wires. I have asked him, moreover another colleague from »BOEHLER Germany«, and my old fellow, working with »ESAB Germany«, if they would have ever heard about the issue that there is a deterioration of mechanical properties when using specific welding-processes, just as SMAW, for re-work already FCA-Welded seams. They, so far, did not, and they told me that my - or let's better say  y o u r  - question was a kind of premiere for them. Now it is up to you by perhaps saying: "O.K. this answer is sufficient for me!" or... to read further on.

Recently I have read a very interesting article in the 01/07 edition of the AWS Welding Journal, where a fellow (under the rubric "Q&A") had asked "Does the temperature of the stainless steel weld metal have an affect on ferrite measurements?" (see also: http://files.aws.org/wj/2007/01/wj200701/wj0107-20.pdf ) The fellow who has answered this query was - as probably always - no one else than the famous Dr. Damian J. Kotecki, among many other responsibilities technical director of LINCOLN Electric's stainless and high-alloy product development. Once again he has replied the inquiry in an incomparable way, so, that no further questions would have remained. But what I have liked most was the honest sentence stated: "I didn't know the answer to your question, so I undertook a test." What a sentence, isn't it? Pure honesty coming from - my personal point of view - one of the greatest experts in welding at all. And this is what I meant when once I stated "...there is no one who knows really  e v e r y t h i n g  in welding..."

Also my highest goal ever is to be honest, and thus I would like to respectful cite Dr. Kotecki when I must admit: "I do not know exactly the answer to your question", and unfortunately, I haven't likewise the chance to execute an examination. But, I had a period in my life where I have busied myself very intensively with the welding of high-alloyed base materials and the sequences being responsible for hot-cracking and particularly for Intergranular Corrosion of welded high-alloyed steels, about what I have written an article for a German professional journal at that time. So what I would humble like to try subsequently is, to use my own knowledge and describe some sequences of which I mean they could be important and helpful in regard to your question and finally to hope you might agree to these.
I suppose it will be unnecessary to talk about the fundamentals of mechanisms for creating high-alloyed-steel materials. Too many - good - books have been written by good authors to explain these sequences.

For specific information in regard to creating welding consumables for high-alloyed steels I would like to recommend a sound link, coming from the LINCOLN Electric. I hope you may not already know it(?):
http://www.lincolnelectric.co.uk/knowledge/help/article.asp?PID=978

Firstly and since you have spoken from "...rob AL...", I do honestly hope you do not mean high-alloyed heat-resistant base materials, containing Aluminum for forming a dense surface oxide-layer. In this case the coherences might be more complicated since these materials are being welded with dissimilar fillers. Assuming you may not have meant heat-resistant and Aluminum containing base-materials, my very first assumption was, that Aluminum does not play the major role in achieving the mechanical properties of the weld deposit. I have researched - thanks the Internet is a wonderful tool to carry out - for the materials data sheet of high-alloyed flux-cored-wires in the quality I have mentioned below. And what I found was great, see also the attached »Material_Safety_Data_Sheet.pdf«.

As you can recognize there, Aluminum as chemical compound »Aluminum Oxide« takes only a relatively small share among all other compounds being used for creating the flux-cored-wires for welding high-alloyed steels. Therefore I must repeat myself when guessing, it is used only for specific sequences in generating the correct slag-composition for protecting the molten droplets and the weld-pool.
Considering that there are no further details known in terms of base- and also filler-metal composition I would like to deal with only one well known base- and filler- material. The AISI 347 base-material - which is a Niobium stabilized 18 Cr/10Ni austenitic steel, and the adequate filler for this material, the ER 347 - which is 19 Cr and 9 Ni also Niobium stabilized. I hope you may agree to this combination due to the German or European standardization in terms of high-alloyed materials is different as you know and I have derivated this combination from the German Standards. As you see I would like to talk only of  o n e  base- and filler-material since I guess it might be enough and every type of material more would complicate the explanations unnecessary.
When I have read your kind question the first idea running through my brain was: "If even there might be a deterioration of the FCA-welded seams quality being re-worked by SMAW, it might be founded on intermetallic compounds!" And now it comes. I am sure: "The almighty god joins everything to its predetermined place." Hence I was so positively impressed and surprised when I have opened the forum to see what has happened in the mean time and could read the topic:

»My 316L stainless steel weld is magnetic!!«

posted by "Farshid". What should I say? There are so many great replies on this topic that words have failed me! And I thought by myself: "Wow, certainly a few of the greatest experts on the forum (Chuck, js55, Henry, Sourdough...) have opened up a gap wide their treasure chests of personal expertise, to reply on Farshid's topic!" And as a great benefit for myself many of the replies in regard to the mentioned topic, have gone to the same direction I had theoretically considered to use for replying your post! I am talking about the austenitic weld deposit and its non austenitic constituents, in particular and basically - the Ferrite (Deltaferrite). Once again and in particular the links embedded by Henry (»ssbn727«) were excellent to explain the "Farshid" query and I have read immediately the: http://www.egmrs.org/EJS/PDF/vo291/151.pdf , dealing with the effects of low temperature aging of 316L austenitic steel weld metals on transformation of Ferrite phase. That was my basically consideration also on your topic, Hogan: "What about the transformation of Deltaferrite in high-alloyed steel weld metal deposits when re-working already welded FCAW-seams by using different welding-processes?"

So far so good. When I have read the paper mentioned above I was impressed, no doubt. It deals in a quite detailed way with the sequences being observable when putting a specific high-alloyed-steel weld-metal-deposit to higher temperatures for let them affect over longer periods of time. But forgive me when I am wrong, the fully understanding of the paper might require - from my point of view - a bit of a kind of "background" in terms of used abbreviations and specific technical terms, since the subject of matter the paper dealt with, is certainly not the easiest one in welding. Here we are. Due to I would like to try to explain subsequently (very partially and fundamentally!) what is going on when welding high-alloyed steels, I would like to describe firstly what prudent people - like M. Shafy in his paper "Effect of Low Temperature Aging of Type 316L Austenitic Stainless Weld Metal on Transformation of Ferrite Phase" - mean, when they are talking about Phase Transformation etc.

So my access to an attempt for finding out if there might be a deterioration in regard to high-alloyed FCA-Welded seams when using other welding-processes (e.g. SMAW)  for re-working these welds, is to ask and reply some very fundamental questions as follows:

1.  What is (strongly simplified) Deltaferrite?
2.  Anton L. Schaeffler - What was (strongly simplified) his contribution?
3.  How to use the »Schaeffler-Diagram«?
4.  What does the »Ferrite Number« mean?
5.  What kinds of "phases" can emerge from the Ferrite?
6.  Can the Deltaferrite - contained within a high-alloyed-steel weld-metal-deposit - be transformed into severe and dangerous brittle phases only by using arc-welding processes?

Ad 1:   What is Deltaferrite?

It is most commonly known that high-alloyed steels are basically defined by their microstructure. I am sure everyone might be able to name some "austenitic", "ferritic", or "martensitic" steels. When we talk about a base material like AISI 347, we are talking about an austenitic material being stabilized with an element having a great affinity to Carbon for creating relatively stable Carbides to prevent "Intergranular Corrosion", namely Niobium. In Germany we are using another kind of system for designating high-alloyed steels. Thus the mentioned AISI 347 is being named in Germany: X6CrNiNb18-10. It is good recognizable that the material has a Carbon content of ~ 0.06% mean, a Chromium content of  ~ 18% mean and a Nickel content of  ~ 8% mean. Furthermore the steel is - as mentioned - stabilized with Niobium in a defined Carbon/Niobium ratio of 10, i.e. the material contains ~ 10 times the content of Carbon and thus ~ 0.6 % Niobium. Whether of what the chemical composition of those materials in detail is, the most important elements affecting the high-alloy-material microstructure are Chromium - which is a strong ferrite forming element - and Nickel, which is a strong austenite builder. Chromium in a pure 2-component-Iron-Chromium System constricts the field of where the Austenite exists beginning with contents of ~ 13% Cr and is mainly "responsible" for the growth of a surface Chromium-Oxide layer making the steel "stainless". Nickel whereas extends the field of where the Austenite exists. In a pure 3-component-Iron-Chromium-Nickel System one would be able to achieve an austenitic microstructure which is stable down to room-temperature.
Important is, that - in relation to the ratio of Chromium and Nickel (and other specific elements where I would like to come later on) - the alloy can have different ways of solidification from the molten condition. Simplified one could say: "The more Chromium the more Ferrite and the more Nickel the more Austenite." And thus, the higher the Chromium-  - or Ferrite generating elements - content, the stronger the forces for a primary ferritic solidification of the molten material. And otherwise, the higher the Nickel - or Austenite generating elements - content, the stronger the forces for a primary austenitic solidification of the molten metal. Hoping very much so far it is understandable what I wrote, since it is a strong simplification and I request already now the forgiveness of all the "materials scientists" on the forum. What's important is the fact, that pure Austenite is a "critical" microstructure, due to its susceptibility for hot-cracking, I request your understanding for not further treating this fact. But, sometimes pure Austenite is required due to its excellent properties in regard to corrosion resistance or e.g. very low values of magnetic permeability, please see also the detailed points, been given by Henry ("ssbn727") and others in their replies to Farshid's post. However, due to the Ferrite - being formed while the molten metal is solidifying - has a positive effect on different properties of the material (e.g. hot-cracking-resistance, increase of the yield-strength...) it is mostly wanted that there is generated a specific, but little amount of Ferrite when the material is being cooled down from its melting-temperature to room-temperature. The term »Deltaferrite« again has its origin in the utilization of the commonly well known »Iron-Carbon-Diagram«, where the different breakpoints - from room-temperature to melting-temperature - have been named by using Greek characters, i.e. »Alpha-Iron (magnetic) = Alphaferrite«, »Alpha- or Beta-Iron [old designation] (nonmagnetic by passing the Curie-temperature) = "Betaferrite" «, »Gamma-Iron (nonmagnetic) = Austenite« and »Delta-Iron (nonmagnetic) = Deltaferrite«. In the Iron-Carbon-Diagram it can be recognized that Deltaferrite is being formed above the temperature of t = 1390°C. Finally one can say, Deltaferrite is being generated from the melt, whereas Alphaferrite is being generated by the transformation from Austenite to Ferrite (Gamma-Iron to Alpha-Iron). What's also very important, is, please see also here the replies been made by the appreciated colleagues mentioned previously several times (topic of Farshid), the time for quenching or cooling down, respectively, the material from its melting-temperature. Here one can say, so far there are Ferrite-generating elements (come to later on) in a sufficient amount, resulting to a microstructure contains both Ferrite and Austenite finally, the amount of Deltaferrite is as higher the higher the cooling rate is. Nevertheless - Duplex-Steels excepted - the amount of Deltaferrite should not exceed 20% at all.

Ad 2:   Anton L. Schaeffler - What was his contribution?

Well what we have "spoken" about until here was a strong restricted view on the sequences being necessary for creating a share of a specific microstructures constituent, called »Deltaferrite«. We have heard that this kind of microstructural constituent has a positive effect on specific material properties (yield-strength, resistance against hot-cracking...) and thus it is mostly desired when high-alloyed-steel weld-metal-deposits cool down from melting- to room-temperature. What we have to distinguish therefore - since there are different amounts of Ferrite and Austenite forming elements - are high-alloyed-steels, being real "stable" Austenites (i.e. pure Austenite apparently "free" of any Deltaferrite) or "metastable" Austenites (i.e. containing Deltaferrite whose amount is among others affected by the cooling rate and the amount of Ferrite forming elements).

Well, a time ago there was a very intelligent man, named A. L. Schaeffler, and I am certain you have already heard of this man or perhaps even worked with its famous contribution to verify which amount of Deltaferrite in Welding dissimilar steels is sound and which is not.
Schaeffler was willing to find a way of convenient and accurate selection of welding-consumables - at that time stick-electrodes - for using it in joining dissimilar steel-materials (un- low- and high-alloyed). You know the problem in welding dissimilar steels is to find a filler material which meets the requirements of both base materials. This is a huge problem since due to the dilution of both dissimilar base materials by the filler metal its microstructure can be altered significantly compared to its original condition. Schaeffler therefore has carried out bead on plate welds using 3/16" austenitic stick-electrodes and different base-materials for finding out their final microstructure by chemical and metallographical investigations. Due to the previously mentioned it has to be denoted that the use of the subsequently created Diagram has to be restrained by these restrained attempt-conditions. The very first "draft" of his created "Schaeffler-Diagram" has been presented in 1947 in the Welding Journal's Research Supplements (601-s - 620-s) and was named »Selection of Austenitic Electrodes for Welding Dissimilar Metals«. I assume you would be surprised when having a look on it, since it doesn't look like the very well known diagram been presented in 1949 ("Constitution Diagram for Stainless Steel Weld Metal" ("Metal Progr." Nov. 1949). Mentioned by the way, the first draft was founded on the fundamental work of "B. Strauß" and "Ed. Maurer" the real famous German Researchers and Developers of the KRUPP "VA"-Steels.

What Schaeffler did was - simply expressed - amazing, since he did not only judge the main-alloying elements Chromium (Ferrite-builder) and Nickel (Austenite-builder) but he has calculated two equivalents for further important alloying-elements - Molybdenum, Silicon and Niobium as Ferrite-builders and Carbon and Manganese as Austenite-builders. Within these equivalents the elements above were being used for defining their "strength" in regard to work as Ferrite- or Austenite-builders. Thus the "Chromium"- and the "Nickel-Equivalent" have been invented, please see also the Schaeffler__jpeg. One can see that Molybdenum in its worth for building Ferrite is equivalent to Chromium, Silicon works 1.5 times more and thus stronger than Chromium and Niobium counts only 0.5 times the worth of Chromium and thus 50% less than it.

Considering the above mentioned, the Schaeffler-Diagram »Chromium-Equivalent« can be stated as:

Cr Eq. = % Cr + % Mo + 1.5 % Si + 0.5 % Nb.

Moreover one can see that Carbon works 30 times stronger in forming Austenite compared with Nickel and is thus a very strong Austenite-builder. Manganese again has only 0.5 of the worth of Nickel in forming Austenite. Thus the Schaeffler-Diagram »Nickel-Equivalent« can be written as:

Ni Eq. = % Ni + 30 % C + 0.5 % Mn.

Ad 3:   How to use the Schaeffler-Diagram?

What can be recognized in the jpeg »Schaeffler_« are different fields of microstructures being expectable when different material compositions, cooling conditions etc. can be stated. And now I would like to come to your question hogan. When you are writing that you have heard that high-alloyed FCA-Welded seams are being deteriorated by using SMAW we should use basically the Schaeffler-Diagram (I will come to the DeLong-Diagram and its Ferrite-Numbers later on) to see if this might show us the right direction in estimating the final microstructure of the material. Therefore we simply have to calculate the base materials Chromium- and Nickel-Equivalent first. As I have mentioned above "we are going to use" a AISI 347 base-material which has a mean composition of:

Carbon (C):     max. 0.08%
Silicon (Si) :    max. 1.0 %
Manganese (Mn):  max. 2.0%
Phosphorus (P):  max. 0.045 %
Sulfur (S):    max. 0.015 %
Chromium (Cr):   17...19%
Nickel (Ni):    9... 12%
Niobium (Nb):  min. 10x %C (max. 1.0%)

Thus one calculate the Chromium-Equivalent by:

18 Cr + 1.5 Si + 0.3 Nb = ~ 19.8

and the Nickel-Equivalent by:

10 Ni + 1.8 C + 1 Mn = ~ 12.8

Now we are going to set these both equivalents by fixing an "x" into the Schaeffler-Diagram (see also jpeg Schaeffler_1).

Now we're having a look on the filler material for the mentioned and calculated base-metal. Since we have to weld similarly we use an ER 347 welding-consumable, e.g. a flux cored wire having a composition of mean:

Carbon (C):     ~ 0.035%
Silicon (Si) :    ~ 0.5%
Manganese (Mn):  ~ 1.4%
Chromium (Cr):    19.4%
Nickel (Ni):    9.5%
Niobium (Nb):  ~ 0.5%

And thus we can calculate the Chromium-Equivalent for the filler wire by:

19.4 Cr + 0.75 Si + 0.15 Nb = ~ 20.3

and the Nickel-Equivalent for the wire by:

9.5 Ni + 1.05 C + 1.4 Mn = ~ 11.95
  
Now we can fix these filler equivalents by setting an "o" into the Schaeffler-Diagram, see also jpeg Schaeffler_1.

One can see that both materials are to find in the field of a Deltaferrite-content between 0% and 5%. Assuming there will be an intermixture of both materials of approx. 50%, i.e. both materials will be molten off in same ratios, one can assume that the final solidified metal has a Deltaferrite content of ~ 3... 5%, which is - and this has to be emphasized - only an approximation. However, one can suppose that there is no extensive hot cracking to expect on the one hand, and no kind of excessive danger for corrosion on the other hand - once again emphasized - in most cases!

However, joining similar materials is not the main field for using the Schaeffler-Diagram, just as already mentioned. This is in fact to find, in joining dissimilar steels just as un- and high-alloyed ones. And herein the Schaeffler-Diagram shows, what it is able for (please wait, I will come later on to DeLong and his Ferrite-Numbers). You know, although there are a few very sophisticated diagrams available intermediately, just as the Welding Research Council (please see also jpeg WRC_Diagram), in many cases the good old "Schaeffler" is working very well and its Diagram is the basis for every Diagram that has followed afterwards. Due to, please let us make a short skip to another kind of welding-application using different base- and filler materials. Since I do not know what kind of materials you have meant when you have posted your topic, I would like you to virtually "join" an unalloyed steel (comparable to your "A 36" structural steel - I hope I am right) and the high alloyed base material AISI 347. But this time we should use another filler wire, e.g. a massive wire electrode comparable the ER 312 containing approx. 30% Cr and 9% Ni and which is used often in joining difficult to weld steels etc.

O.K. first we are going to calculate again the Chromium- and Nickel-Equivalents for the unalloyed structural steel "A36":

Cr Eq. = 1.5 Si = ~ 1.5

Ni Eq. = 6 C + 0.5 Mn = 6.5

Now we can mark these equivalents by setting an » x « to the Schaeffler-Diagram (see also jpeg Schaeffler_2). As you can see the materials position is being located within the field of Ferrite + Martensite.

Now we set the point for AISI 347, just as already done before, by setting a » o «. Subsequently we have to connect both marked positions by setting a wider line (called also Dilution Direction Line), see also jpeg Schaeffler_2.

Assuming now that both base materials being intermixed by welding in an equal ratio (= 50% of each), we can divide the lines distance in its centre, see also jpeg Schaeffler_2.

Now we calculate the Chromium- and Nickel-Equivalents for the filler wire:

Cr Eq. = 30 Cr = ~ 30.0   and

Ni Eq. = 9.5 Ni + 3.6 C = ~ 13.1

Now we mark these equivalents by setting a black square. Afterwards we connect the centre of the both base material equivalents with the equivalents position of the filler wire (black square), see the yellow Dilution Direction Line in jpeg Schaeffler_2. And now we can finish the work by assuming a ratio of dilution for the used welding process (GMAW using massive wire electrode). This is being set by approx. 30%. By dividing the yellow Dilution Direction Line distance by 10, we achieve 10 equal sections where every section stands for 10% of dilution. In case of a dilution ratio of approx. 30% we can locate the final weld-metal-deposits microstructure beginning always at the point of filler materials equivalent, i.e. the black square in this case (blue cross in jpeg Schaeffler_2). As you can see the finally solidified weld metal has an austenitic + ~ 18% Deltaferrite microstructure and thus a high resistance against martensitic induced cracking on the one hand and pure stable austenite induced hot-cracking on the other hand (I request your forgiveness for all these simplifications until here).
In conjunction with the ratios of dilution it should also be mentioned that different welding-processes has of course different behaviours of diluting the base material. Although there are many different data in regard to this fact I would like to list the well known approximately ratios of dilution as:

SAW - Strip Surfacing: 8...15%
SAW - Wire: ~ 50%
GTAW: 15... 30%
SMAW: 15... 30%
GMAW: 25... 40%

What I would have liked to show by describing the previous, is a bit of the background needed for - hopefully - understanding the subsequent facts in regard to whether the microstructures constituent called "Deltaferrite" can be altered into brittle phases and thus being the reason for a significant deterioration of the already welded high-alloyed seam by using other arc-welding processes, in particular SMAW. But before I would like to come to the mentioned brittle compounds I want to make a very short side trip to DeLong and the Ferrite-Numbers, since of these ones is being spoken also in many coherences when talking about Deltaferrite containing high-alloyed weld-metal-deposits.

Ad 4:   What does the "Ferrite-Number" mean?

Well to keeping it short and simple. After Schaeffler has created his diagram - described previously - there have been executed many other investigations and attempts to see and prove if it really would work in practice. And it did and it does also today. But of course there were other researchers who have modified the diagram by integrating other important alloying elements into the original Schaeffler-Diagram. One of those was W.T. DeLong who has integrated the strong force of Nitrogen (N) in regard to form austenitic microstructure. Already in 1960 (Metal Progr. February 1960 - "A modified phase diagram for stainless steel weld metals") DeLong has evaluated 600(!) pieces of specimen by mean of Magnetic Gauge. Here he has found out that up to a Nitrogen content of 0.055% (using 19Cr 9Ni or 19Cr 10Ni + Nb stick- electrodes, respectively) the Deltaferrite contents calculated by using the Schaeffler-Diagram and his magnetic measurements of Deltaferrite agree very well. But for the evaluation of distinct Nitrogen contents (different to 0.055%) DeLong has determined a new "course" for "Ferrite-Lines" from 0... 14% Deltaferrite, for the area of Chromium-Equivalents from 18... 26. Therefore he has suggested a new formula for calculating the Nickel-Equivalent which was:

Ni Eq. = %Ni + 30 x % C + 30 x % N + 0.5 % Mn

Here one can see that also Nitrogen has the ability to form an austenitic microstructure and that, approx. 30 times stronger than Nickel itself induces austenite (!).

DeLong has thus created the so called "Ferrite-Numbers" which is another way of designation for the amount of Deltaferrite content integrating the effect of Nitrogen as a strong Austenite-former basing on magnetic gauge values. Until 6% Deltaferrite both Schaeffler and DeLong agree in the amounts of Deltaferrite-contents. Above this point the Ferrite-Number Lines in the DeLong Diagram deviate in comparison to the Schaeffler-Diagram, see also jpeg DeLong_Diagram. As promised, I have kept it short.

Ad 5:   What kind of phases can emerge from the Deltaferrite?

As heard the Deltaferrite has a number of advantages in terms of mechanical properties of the material. But moreover it has also some disadvantages to be aware of. The most negative fact is, that Deltaferrite can be transformed into so called intermetallic and thus brittle compounds or phases, respectively. These, among others, are - mentioned by the way - those phases the appreciated colleagues have spoken about in regard to replying Farshid's topic. The problem is, that Deltaferrite is a relatively unstable constituent which can be affected by temperature by time. Therefore different compounds can be formed from the Deltaferrite, which can deteriorate the weld metal properties due to their physical character - they are brittle. These phases are - as mentioned above - by underlying the law of thermodynamical equilibrium, influenced and formed by temperature and time the temperature can affect on the material. Subsequently I would like to list the most important kinds of phases and want to describe them, and their conjunction with the Deltaferrite they are being formed of, very shortly.

·  Sigma

There are two different fundamental mechanisms known this phase is being precipitated, whereas I do not want to treat further the mechanism of decomposition of carbides in stable austenitic steels, since it would - from my point of view - complicate the matter in an unnecessary way. Basically, in a pure alloy-system of Iron and Chromium this brittle phase has a composition of 52% Iron and 48% Chromium. In metastable austenitic steels the non-magnetic Sigma-Phase reduces the materials ductility and increases its hardness (700... 800 Hardness Vickers). »Sigma« can also increase the materials corrosion susceptibility. The phase is being precipitated only above Chromium-contents of ~ 16%. It has been proven that the phase is being formed by a decomposition of Deltaferrite into Austenite and Sigma-Phase. within a temperature range of 500°C... 900°C and has a maximum forming-rate at ~ 800°C. Weld-metal containing higher amounts of Deltaferrite is more susceptible for forming Sigma-Phase. Mainly the Sigma-Phase is being formed by exposing the metal temperatures within the described range.

·  Chi

Alloy systems based on Iron-Chromium-Nickel-Molybdenum can precipitate another equilibrium-phase, called Chi-Phase. This constituent is formed within temperatures between 760... 980°C and can be dissolved again at temperatures above 1000°C. The brittle Chi-Phase has been among others also been investigated in steel AISI 317 (X3CrNiMo18-12-3). Although both Sigma- and Chi-Phase have different crystallographic modifications (Sigma = tetragonal - Chi = Body Centred Cubic) both phases have been found to have a quite similar chemical composition with AISI 317. Increasing contents of Niobium constrain a formation of Chi-Phase.

·  Laves (or Eta-phase)

Molybdenum alloyed high-alloyed and Niobium-stabilized austenitic stainless steels can form in temperature ranges between 600... 1000°C the so called Laves- or Eta-Phase, a compound of Iron and Molybdenum (Fe2Mo). However, for forming this phase longer time ranges on elevated temperature levels being necessary (e.g. ~ 6 hours at 800°C).

I request your understanding for not further treating the details in thermodynamical mechanisms for forming intermetallic phases. I am sure there are appreciated colleagues on the forum (Henry?) having good hints for specific information and can attach some links for more in depth information. From my point of view it is - here and now - firstly more important to try to clarify the question whether arc-welding processes can cause a deterioration of already welded high-alloy-weld-metal-deposits and thus I would like to come to the final question to be answered:

Ad 7:   Can the Deltaferrite - contained within a high-alloyed-steel weld-metal-deposit - be transformed into severe and dangerous brittle phases only by using arc-welding processes? 

Due to what has been said until this point and by the current knowledge in this field, the question must be answered basically with "Yes, this might happen."
Due to the forming rate for intermetallic phases - and in particular we are talking only about Sigma-Phase subsequently - is relatively increased in Deltaferrite compared with Austenite, in weld-metal-deposits having a relatively high content of Deltaferrite, Sigma-Phase can be formed already by the affecting through the weld-heat. In those cases the weld-seam-intersections can be subjected to an embrittlement(!). Therefore it is being recommended to avoid any unnecessary additional warm-up of the already welded seam. Particularly higher alloyed Molybdenum and Niobium containing weld-metal is susceptible to form Sigma-Phase. Already > 3% of Molybdenum in weld-metal can increase the forming rate for Sigma-Phase in an unacceptable amount and can provide Sigma-Phase contents in multi-layer welded seams. The forming rate for Sigma-Phase is additionally increased by Niobium containing high-alloyed weld-metal-deposits. Thus - if we assume that welding over an already deposited weld-metal and having a "critical" weld-metal composition - it might happen that Sigma-Phase can be formed by the weld-heat affecting and the weld-deposit is subjected to an embrittlement. This again would deteriorate the mechanical properties of the seam been welded over.

Finally I am unfortunately not able to say if there is any difference in arc-welding processes being used for re-working the seam and thus to say if the SMAW is being better or worse than e.g. GTAW, but as I have written at the beginning of my response, the mentioned fellows working in depth in this field, do not mean that it might be so. Therefore I would recommend to reduce the "re-work heat input" down to an absolute minimum whether which welding-process is being used for re-working.
The only thing I would like to mention - real finally - is, SMAW in welding high-alloyed steels can be accompanied by an increased absorption of Nitrogen by too long arc-lengths. Nitrogen again - as described above - is a very strong Austenite-builder and thus can influence the non-balanced forming of microstructures constituents in a significant way. But how far this displacement can deteriorate the properties of the already deposited and subsequent re-worked weld-metal, I am - unfortunately - not able to say.

By the way, Sigma-Phase can be dissolved and thus the embrittlement of the material can be deleted, by solution-annealing the material at temperatures between 950°C... 1050°C.

Oh, I guess the very crucial point comes at last, of course the filler-material composition for being used for re-working the already welded seam has to be properly chosen. But I guess also, this to mention is certainly unnecessary...

My very best regards to you and apology for the late reply,
Stephan
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Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-22-2007 18:33 Edited 02-22-2007 18:54
thank you stephan
as always lots of good info.
let me give you a little more background on my question. in the usa, on the west coast we have more stringent seismic provisions. the current code code dealing with this is FEMA 353. the precursor to this code was sac interim guideline 267/267b ( http://www.sacsteel.org/design/interimguidelines.html ). if you look at chapter 8, page 8-14, at the bottom of the page the last paragraph states that:

Except to the extent that one requires Charpy V-Notch toughness and   
minimum yield strength, the filler metal classification is typically selected by the   
Fabricator. Compatibility between different filler metals must be confirmed by   
the Fabricator, particularly when SMAW and FCAW-SS processes are mixed.   
Generally speaking, SMAW-type filler metals may not be applied to FCAW-SS   
type filler metals (e.g. when a weld has been partially removed) while FCAW-type   
filler metals may be applied to SMAW-type filler metals. This recommendation   
considers the use of aluminum as a killing agent in FCAW-SS electrodes that can   
be incorporated into the SMAW filler metal with a reduction in impact toughness
properties.
i have not seen info on this befor or after this publication. i'm just looking to edgucate myself on this tooic a little more. any elabiration on this aspect of reworking fcaw-ss with smaw would be greatly appreciated
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-01-2007 19:40
hogan,

thanks!

Well as I have seen I have interpreted your post a bit too different to that you have meant basically isn't it? Do not hope the entire forum is laughing on me since I have understood "FCAW SS" as "FCAW Stainless Steel"? If yes, o.k. doesn't matter! Hope nonetheless my reply could deliver at least a bit interesting information...

O.K. I have had a look onto the papers you added the links to your post. They are talking in there of welding un- and low-alloyed steels by using un- and low-alloyed welding consumables.

In particular self shielded flux cored wires have undoubted higher contents of aluminum as a constituent of the flux core. As you can see within the table attached, "Coreshield_8_pdf", besides aluminum also higher contents of magnesium are used as constituents for the flux. Both elements have a relatively high affinity to oxygen or nitrogen, respectively.

Aluminum is being used for removing nitrogen and oxygen by chemical combination to Al2O3 (2 Aluminum + 3 Oxygen = Aluminumoxide) and AlN (1 Aluminum + 1 Nitrogen = Aluminumnitride). Aluminumoxide and Aluminumnitride themselves are being dissolved again within the weld-metal-deposit on the one and within the slag on the other hand. The amount of dissolved nitrogen by aluminum is varying in some wide ranges and is particularly coupled with the contact tip to workpiece distance. In "normal" cases the droplet size being transferred to the molten bead should not step over ~ 1 x wire electrode diameter. When e.g. increasing the electrical Stickout of the wire and thus welding with high contact tip to workpiece distances the resistance of the wire does increase as well known. Due to the droplet size does increase, the droplets surface is being increased likewise and thus the molten droplet can dissolve higher amounts of nitrogen. This again does rise the total nitrogen content - as AlN - above a harmless level. Higher amounts of AlN again do decrease the ductility of the weld-metal and embrittle the material itself. Although Aluminumnitride does work also as a grain refining constituent (forming seed crystals) at AlN-particle-precipitations > 1 micron the amount of embrittlement does significantly rise and thus the ductility of the weld-metal does drop. There have been conducted investigations having the goal to find out the reduction of impact toughness when welding with low alloyed self shielded flux cored wires and the results were impressive by showing the significant coherence between increasing contact tip to workpiece distance - increasing Aluminumnitride content and the dropping of impact toughness values.

The other "negative", since ductility decreasing, compound can be Aluminumoxide (Al2O3) being formed by the reaction of 2 Aluminum + 3/2 Oxygen2 (2Al + 3/2 O2 - > Al2O3) at high temperatures within the arc-atmosphere. Aluminumoxide remains within the solidified weld-metal as a coarse dendritic crystal compound and pollutes as this the weld-metals purity and, having thus negative effects on the mechanical properties of the weld.

The third aspect Aluminum can deteriorate the mechanical properties of the weld metal - but I am not absolutely sure in how far this may also count for using self shielding flux cored wire electrodes - since a sufficiently high enough content (higher that one being segregated by nitrogen and oxygen at all) of Aluminum can also force the forming of very brittle and very hard (FexAly-type, eg. Fe2Al5 ~ 1050 HV or FeAl3 ~ 900 HV) intermetallic phases, see also the binary phase diagram "Iron-Aluminum_Binary_Phase_Diagram_pdf." But perhaps, I am not certain, by decomposing sequences and partial strong non equilibrium states of matter (high cooling rates...) it may occur that also those brittle constituents within the weld metal can partially be formed.

Finally when welding now over an already self shielded FCA-Weld by using MMA-Welding (more or less varying arc-lengths and thus more or less varying input of additional gaseous constituents [Oxygen and Nitrogen] ) and not knowing how high the basically content of aluminum-based constituents (Al2O3 or AlN) within the already deposited  weld-metal is, may risk decomposing these constituents, forming new additional brittle constituents and deteriorate thus the mechanical properties of the weld-metal.

Regards,
Stephan
Attachment: Coreshield_8.pdf (75k)
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-24-2007 11:09
Hello hogan,

I would like to come back once more on your interesting topic with regard to the combination of different welding-process weld deposits (SMAW and FCAW) in the field of welding steel-constructions in geographically critical seismic regions.

As I have read the article

http://files.aws.org/wj/2007/02/wj200702/wj0207-28.pdf

in the February 2007 AWS Welding-Journal, I was remembered immediately on your topic.

Although I do really not know what kind of specific US-American standardization details are being buried behind the different designations within the article (I request your understanding), I personally found it very interesting of what has been stated generally in terms of filler metals. There one can read that when using or combining, respectively, different welding-process weld metals - in particular when combined with already deposited FCAW-S filler metal deposit - "...the combination of the two must be checked to ensure that the minimum required Charpy V-notch toughness is obtained." And excepting, that when intermixing FCAW-S with FCAW-S fillers these tests are not required, to be executed. This is for all « D1.8 - Welds » (I suppose valid for "normal" conditions(?)).

For « Demand Critical Welds » one can see that the filler metals have to meet higher or more stringent requirements with regard to different mechanical properties being available mainly as a function of different heat input. What follows are the explanations of different specifically standardized tests in order to prove the filler metals capability to be used for demand critical welds.

Herein - although I have searched accurately (I hope I haven't overlooked something) - I could no more find any hint onto the coherence between the Aluminum content of different weld-metal deposits been molten by different welding-processes and thus being combined finally.

Well, that's already all I actually wanted to "say"...

My best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-07-2007 20:02
Henry!

I am very busy currently but meanwhile (by night) I had a closer look to the links you have embedded!

Some I have already known but some were new for me and Henry, be aware... these are fantastic!

Great stuff to work through :-)

Once more a heartfelt Thanks for that and regards,
Stephan
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 20:28
Stephan!

I had a hunch that you already seen a few... I also included a few that might just catch your attention!!!
Btw Stephan, when I'm not aware - I'm not there!!!! So, here's to being there!!!
I'm glad you liked them.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By darren (***) Date 01-24-2007 05:16
asked the wire and rod control agent about moisture and storage told that there was no moisture problem and that was that. i however truly appreciate the knowledge i have gained from this topic posting, i have learned alot, the moisture in the wire because of the way it has been stored on the shop floor seems to be the most probable reason. (multiple shifts with MANY temperature and humidity variation -10 degrees c to +15 degrees c, snowing and raining, sometimes wire sits on shop floor on top of welder for weeks even months                           )
started out with no idea and am down to a very likley and thats damn good.
thanks 
darren
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-27-2007 06:51 Edited 01-27-2007 07:03
Hi JA!
Ask the question directly to Ed Craig here:
http://www.weldreality.com/discussion/

Here's his home page:
http://www.weldreality.com/default2.htm

Here's a link inside that might help:
http://www.weldreality.com/flux_cored_pipe_welding.htm

Check out this story:
http://www.weldreality.com/Land%20of%20Myth%202003.htm

This guy tells it like it is!!! Enjoy!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 02-04-2007 23:05
Hi All!

Long time since I've posted on this site! But gotta send a message out to stephen and ssbn727 about the excellent posts!

Been looking for an answer for this one for about 10 years!

Regards

and thank  you!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-05-2007 04:19
Happy belated new Years Glenn!!!

Thanks for those kind words, and I apologize for not getting back to you after you sent me that wonderful Christmas card from the Family!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-05-2007 07:02
Stephen: as to the spray/pulse question on Ed Craig's site, He somewhere says that this is at or close to the spray transition point before the droplets become fine as usually associated with spray transfer. Is that what You mean By "Drop Spray"?
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-05-2007 15:06
Hi DaveBoyer!

I believe Stephan is referring to this publication by L.A.Jones, P. Mendez, D. Weiss & T.W. Eagars from M.I.T.
Which was presented at The Ninth Annual Conference on Iron and steel Technology, Pohang, Korea, August, 1997...
http://www.mines.edu/~pmendez/Publications/Papers/1997korea.pdf

On page two, in Figure one the article refers to "Drop Transfer Modes" such as:"Globular, Drop Spray and Streaming Spray." Am I correct there Stephan?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-05-2007 18:01
Glenn,

thanks a lot for your kind words!

Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-06-2007 07:06 Edited 02-06-2007 07:09
Stephen [and others following the Ed Craig question] I have looked that site over pretty carefully, I hav'nt ponyed up the cash for the MIG & Flux Core book yet, but intend too. I didn't see anyting on the website suggesting that the drop/spray transfer in the picture was a particularly usefull production method. I think the pictures are there mostly to attract attention and arouse curiousity. At least that was My reaction. As anyone who has read Ed's website knows it is His position that a lot of folks have been sold expensive gas mixes and expensive pulsed equiptment in an attempt to solve problems that could have been solved with argon-CO2 mixes and proper settings on simple power supplys. And to make matters worse the pulse machines in many cases were not reliable. I was away from high volume manufacturing before all this [pulse MIG] got popular, so I don't have personal experience to draw on.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-06-2007 12:58
It is only an intuitive guess.

But Ed has had those spray transfer images on his sight for over 4 years.  But until 2006 Ed has had on outspokenly negative opinion of any pulsed spray transfer, (for good reasons I think).  I doubt he would be using video images of a process he detested.  No facts here just a guess.

Now the high speed images of FCAW Stephen mentions above I would be interested in seeing. Such a touchy process with parameters changing between vendors producing the same electrode designation or sometimes even from lot to lot by the same vendor.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-07-2007 20:51
Lawrence,

your reply honors me!

May I agree with you?

As far as I could read on Ed Craig's website - and interpreted it correctly - I assume that he has used a "conventional" power-supply for imaging the droplet transfer due to, he is - probably understandably - no "fan" of using (mostly) the pulsed arc.

And I may be allowed to agree also with Dave Boyer when he assumed that Ed Craig has used the High-Speed-Image for "arousing curiousity" to the welding community for the "miracles" of Gas Shielded Metal Arc Welding.

My very best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By sra (*) Date 03-04-2007 19:40
Re: Pluse arc on cs .045 hard wire 85-15 gas 1/4" continious single pass.  Pre set factory suggestions 25-50-200(wfs). Looking for some input on the pluse-arc.
I too enjoy reading Ed Carig's site. Until receintly he downplayed the use of pluse arc. After he made some tests with the Miller 350P, deep in his site article he (ED) said had to change his view after 2006. The machine was cost effective and versitle on 1/4" or so weldments. He does have some issues with penetration, I looked in depth at his article and concluded--- it wasn't going to have the deposit of spray, but shouldn't have the cold lap or non fusion as you can sometimes deal with using short-arc.
We bought the machine prior to reading his downplayed articles, primarly because of its ablilty to have a slope adjustments not available on our Miller 452, and have since found other uses for the machine with ss mig.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-22-2007 17:02
Lawrence,

please let me come back to what you have predicated in your post by saying: "Now the high speed images of FCAW Stephen mentions above I would be interested in seeing."

Unfortunately I am not able to present the High-Speed-Images to you, but please let me attach the great mentioned IIW-Paper coming from »Izutani et al« for your kind information.

Herein you can find a lot of interesting data and also jpeg's from the different droplet-transfer modes.

I hope you will enjoy, the authors would have deserved it...

Regards,
Stephan
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