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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Insurance for CWI???
- - By Stallsmith (*) Date 02-02-2007 16:01
I am taking my CWI in MAY.  I am a welding teacher at a tech school.  If I would do inspection work periodicly for local fab shops do I need any kind of insurance?  Where does the liability lie?  I quess what I am trying to say if I inspect and approval a weldment according to D1.1 and do everything correctly and document everything accurately am I free from liability?  This might be a stupid question but I want to cover myself.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 02-02-2007 16:18
out west i needed 1million for contract ndt and visual (cwi and api 570, 653)
Parent - By BamaDave (**) Date 02-03-2007 12:53
The dollar amount is typically dictated by your client and if not addressed or required it is a decision you will have to make.  This will become a concern if you aren't incorporated as any liability issues falls entirely on you.  To be honest liability insurance isn't that expensive and I would and did have at least $1MM as was previous stated.  It can be purchased at your same insurance carrier as your home or car without any real difficulty.  The real problem kicks in when you have a client that require Workmans Compensation coverage, now this is where the costs really become taxing as it is based on the amount you make and the type of business you perform.

Hope this helps.

David
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-03-2007 15:32
I'm incorporated and my General Liability policy is 2 million, and runs $3000 per year. Until around 6 years ago, my GL policy was around $1000 per year. The GL policy covers things like bodily injury, property damage, personal injury that may happen on a job-site.  This coverage is usually mandatory.  The key to getting the best rate is working with your underwriter to make sure you are in the best classification for your services. I have yet to find a carrier that has a category specifically for " non-destructive testing" or "welding inspectors". Each company is different when they try to place you. In 30 years, I have been in 5 or 6 different categories.

Workers Comp / Unemployment Insurance for a corporate officer is around $500 per year, which is very reasonable.  This coverage is  not always mandatory to work for certain clients, but more and more clients requiring it.  I would not be without this coverage.  The cost in my state is based on your wage EXCEPT that corporate officers have a base wage that is fixed. 

It sounds to me like you are talking about Professional Liability such as Errors & Omissions which protects you if something you did was done incorrectly, and that this error cost your client money or caused them harm in some way. This type of insurance may be appropriate for anyone who gives advice, makes educated recommendations etc.  The last time I looked into this, it was VERY expensive.  I think the price was 10,000+ per year, and that was many years ago.

All that said, I have a lengthy disclaimer at the bottom of my reports and in my quality assurance manual.  This disclaimer is also included in any contracts, purchase orders etc:

The information reported appears to be a reasonable sample of the condition of this item, but is not judged to represent the condition of this item with absolute certainty.  Accordingly, XXXXXXX has applied ordinary skill in making the inspections and shall not be held liable for errors or omissions of any kind.  The manufacturer / owner must satisfy itself as to the adequacy and accuracy of the evaluation.  The results reported represent opinions only and are not to be considered as warranties or guaranties of quality.  Nothing herein shall be construed to be a guaranty against loss occasioned by failure of the structure upon which the examination is made.  XXXXXX assumes no responsibility for misinterpretation of indications.

~thirdeye~

PS - I for one would be interested is what others are paying and what categories you are placed in.  Each one has a separate identification number and is sometimes found on your certificate of insurance, but always in your policy.
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 02-03-2007 16:07
Thirdeye has it right.  Get the $1m coverage, and go on the web and search for LLC information in your state.  All companies we deal with require both Liab/ Comp when we enter the door.  The LLC only cost around $50 for the year, and your Workers Comp will be really cheap when you are the only officer of the company.  This LLC also seperates your personal assets from being part of a lawsuit if it ever came to that.
It took us about 4 months to research, quote, and get the Lia, Comp, and LLC all filed, but it really is not that expensive (< $3,500 for the year)...And well worth it!!
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-22-2007 18:14
Update - I received my insurance renewal this week and it has increased 25% over last year to just over $4000.  This is for a 2M GL policy, auto is not included.  Needless to say, the search is back on and I'm going to be getting some quotes from different agents.

I will keep you updated and as always, any input is welcomed.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By MonteyWelding Date 03-13-2007 20:11
That's nothing, our quote was for 1M, GL policy, and was $12,000 per year two years ago.  I'd like to know some agency's to go to for reasonable quote.  Thanks.
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-14-2007 01:48
MonteyWelding,

My first quote came back today (they had over two weeks to work on it) for $28,000.  Apparently they had me confused with the two other quotes they were working on.  They think in 4 or 5 days this can be straightened out.  The next three agents that responded were so confused about what I do, they have asked for MORE time.  One indicated that since Exxon posted such high quarterly profits, the underwriters think the market is strong and contractors should be willing to pay the "market price".  One guy tried to sell me health insurance while we wait for the commercial quote.

I'm about ready to write a check for renewal and swallow the $1K.  Correction .... pass the 1K on to my customers.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By BamaDave (**) Date 02-05-2007 14:12
Well, the corporate officer rate is acceptable but is it actually realistic for an individual conducting inspections?  My insurance carrier wouldn't provide coverage based on my title and you will find that an inspector working in the field will have rates that far exceed those of office personnel.  Additionally, there are limits of coverage and you may be able to trick the carrier into providing coverage based on your title but you may need to read the fine print.  You may find out you're actually not covered as all.
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-05-2007 15:35
BamaDave,

I'm not exactly following everything you point out but here goes....

I believe that the corporate officer wage for IU & WC is fixed by the State for two reasons.  1. It protects  those that may have a huge corporate salary from paying too much for coverage. Let's face it, if you make $1M a year chances are your company has alternate insurance plans for comp or unemployment. States like mine like to be business friendly in order to attract new businesses and low fees and taxes are how it is done.  And 2., It provides a basis for good coverage for corporate officers that are paid a low corporate salary.  Many self employed folks take a low salary to keep personal taxes as low as possible, lower withholding and lower the expenses relating to the company match.  Officers are entitled to shareholder distribution of profit (bonus), which depending on your corporation election and your tax bracket, may be taxed at a lower rate than income.  As long as your salary is not suspiciously low, and your bonuses are not too large this is a legal strategy.  One downside to this is that it lowers the annual contribution your company makes into your SEP or other retirement or pension plans, since that is based on salary. 

I'm not following when you mentioned that your insurance carrier won't provide coverage based on your title.  Once your business is put into a proper classification, your GL insurance rates are based on payroll only.  Your state assigns your business a classification for IU & WC. Of course you have to declare your position, but in smaller companies one person can hold several corporate positions and that same person can have more than one title or perform several jobs.  This should be spelled out in your Articles of Incorporation, which is accepted by the State you have filed in. The government uses the term "Mom & Pop" companies.  It is not unusual for Pop to wear several hats and his titles could be President, Secretary, Treasurer, General Manager, Bookkeeper, Inspector, Errand Boy etc.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 02-06-2007 11:53
Thirdeye, you are correct in your post.  Our inc. does not care if you are an "office" person or not.  We have it layed out the same as you have mentioned, and we don't have fine print, or laps in coverage based on our titles.  We are the "mom & pop" shop, but don't skimp on our coverage, or the attention to detail we know about or coverage.
Good information here!
Parent - - By Bob Fellers Date 02-13-2007 00:23
Can anyone give me an insurance underwriter's name. I am looling for liability insurance for independent work, but my insurance company seems to be having a hard time finding a company. They also don't know what category CWI work falls under.
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-13-2007 16:25
Hi Bob,

Underwriters work for insurance companies and basically they identify and calculate the risk of loss from policyholders, establish appropriate premium rates, and write policies and so forth.  You might want to get in touch with an another agent that deals with several insurance companies.  This way they will send your request for coverage out to several underwriters at the same time for a quote.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you are placed in a category selected by a particular underwriter so the more information you can give them the better.  I have had some really work to find a spot. Some have been very willing to listen to me explain the inspection and NDT business, sadly others have not been that interested at all.  Some companies know exactly what I am after but they have a minimum policy charge, which I fall well under.

I work in a state with a lot of oil, gas, mining and construction and for the last several years I have been classified in something like "Oil & Gas Service Companies".  In the past the categories have ranged from "Pipeline Inspection" to "Engineering Support Services" to "Materials Quality Control".  The term "welding" has never been included in my category because underwriters associate that term with risk of fire, explosion etc.  A number of years ago I had an NRC license for radioactive materials and that was a real doozie when it came to insurance.

Keep us posted on any progress you have and rates you are quoted as many of us are interested in getting the best deal available.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By Bob Fellers Date 02-14-2007 00:29
Thanks, Thirdeye
I had a welding fabrication company for about 15 years, and had liability insurance all that time with no issues. I did CWI work for other local fab shops in the area for the several years while running my fab shop. I worked at a Technical School as a welding instructor part time for about 12 years and did welding qualification testing to D1.1 and some to ASME Section lV. Now all of a sudden when I tell the insurance company I am doing inspection work they don't want to talk to me. It is kind of frustrating, but I will keep trying. Sounds like I am not alone.
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 02-14-2007 17:29
Fremont Insc. is the company that I use.  They handle both lia. and comp for us.  Our local agent works with companies all over the country. 
Send me an email and I'll give you his contact information so you can give him a call.
mdgwelding@yahoo.com
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Insurance for CWI???

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