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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / starting a lincoln SA-200 gas welder
- - By GMANIAC Date 02-03-2007 22:41
I am having a difficult time starting my dad's old lincoln.  The machine hasn't been firedup in years.  Battery is shot, so I'm jumping  with a battery booster.  All it does is click.  Removed the plugs and squirted liquidwrench in the the four cylinders, nothing.  Do I need a bigger battery and connect directly to the cables, or can I still jump with the 850 booster?
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 02-03-2007 23:55
GMANIAC, in a case such as the one you are describing you may want to do a few things before you try starting this machine. You are on the right track by first removing the spark plugs and squirting in the liquid wrench. You may want to see if you can turn the motor over by hand next with the spark plugs removed, by doing this you may well break loose any stuck rings or similar type things. Double check to see that you have coolant in the cooling system, pull the dip stick to verify the oil level and also lack of water in the oil or anything else strange. Check the airfilter or oil bath air filter system depending on the one that is used in this case, make sure that nothing has made a home here that shouldn't be there. As far as the battery goes, remove the old one and install a like sized new one or one that you know is good, if you try to jump start the motor with the old one still installed it will not work, the old battery is robbing any of the charge that you are trying to get to the starter. Take a good look at the plugs and once you get a battery in the machine and get it to turn over install one of the plugs onto one of the wires and insure that you have spark, possibly even repeat this process with the other plug wires. If you don't have spark you will likely have to start checking things such as the spark plug cap for corrosion on the contact points or the rotor, you may also have to change the points and condenser. If it has a magneto there are some like components that can be inspected but it will not have an ignition coil. Try some of the things that I have mentioned here and see if you can get it to work. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-04-2007 05:25
In addition to Aevald's suggestions, I would allso drain out any old gas that might be left in it and put in fresh gas. If You are in a cold climate get the machine into a heated garage if You can. If You try starting fluid use it sparingly. You might need to clean the OTHER ends of the battery cables too. I hav a machine that sat for about 10 years, old dead gas was the problem. Now I use gas stabilizer and make sure I start the machine every year just for so if I havn't used it.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-04-2007 16:21
Hello Dave, a few more very good points to consider in this situation. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By tompit9 (***) Date 03-27-2007 15:26
could you give me a quik run down on the wireing diagram from battery to switch (battery,siloniod,regulator,to switch). trying to refresh my memory. thanks
Parent - - By PlanB (*) Date 03-27-2007 17:54
Email me at planb@txwinet.com I think I have a diagram you need. Thanks Troy.
Parent - By tompit9 (***) Date 03-28-2007 06:57
my email is tompit9@aol.com if you don't mind sending it?
Parent - - By fw3372 (*) Date 04-03-2007 02:19
if you have that diagram would you mind send it to me to  fw3372@sbcglobal.net  thanks
Parent - By tompit9 (***) Date 04-04-2007 06:54
email planb and he can hook you upwith a diagram.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 02-05-2007 02:17
Your problem is definately the battery or connection, if it clicks you're not getting enough juice.
Parent - - By GMANIAC Date 02-11-2007 20:59
Thanks guys for the help.  I got the motor turning with the starter and  grounded one of the spark wire, no spark. Help!
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 02-11-2007 23:01
Distributor ignition or magneto?
Bill
Parent - - By GMANIAC Date 02-12-2007 00:40
I have a distributor with points and condenser. Cleaned and lightly sandpapered the cap 4 contacts, rotor tip and points. No spark grounded on the motor.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-12-2007 03:27
Do the points open with a gap of aprox .025" and close leaving a gap between the cam & wiper on the points ? With the ignition on and the points open if You stick a screwdriver between the points You should get a spark from the coil wire to ground when the screwdriver is removed. There should be some minor sparking at the screwdriver too. Try this tell us what happens.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-12-2007 03:49 Edited 02-12-2007 03:51
Hello again GMANIAC, if you have a voltage tester you should check to see that you have voltage to the battery side of the coil once you have turned on the key, also check to make sure that the negative side of the coil has continuity to ground. If not, you will need to track down why you don't, another thing you can do after doing the first thing that I suggested is to disconnect the positive wire to the coil and jumper that terminal to 12volts +, also disconnect the negative wire to the coil, while holding the high tension wire from the coil next to the engine block, touch the negative wire to the - terminal on the coil, only ground this wire momentarily, this should trigger a spark if the coil is working properly. If that test yields a spark then reconnect all of the wires and try cranking the motor over with the high tension lead from the coil next to the block as done previously, this should also cause sparking while the engine is cranking. If you don't see any spark in this second test I would start looking at the points, condenser, cap, or rotor.
     One other item to consider has to do with any low-oil pressure shutdown switches. Sometimes machines that are so equipped will have the 12 volt supply to the coil fed through this pressure switch, if the switch is faulty it won't allow the engine to start due to not allowing voltage as it should. This switch is usually a (normally open) contact switch which allows the oil pressure as it builds up to close the contacts in the switch and allow the engine to start. Thus if the engine should lose oil pressure, it will cut the voltage to the ignition system and shutdown the engine.
     When you're at this point you may want to go ahead and do a compression test, generally there is a range that is allowable before you need to worry about any major engine repair. Sometimes, what is more important in this instance, is that all of the pressures are with 15 to 20 PSI. of one another. Also do a dry test and then do a wet test by shooting a little shot of oil into the cylinder before testing the pressure, if you notice an appreciable pressure increase with oil this is a sign of the rings having wear. If you have one or more cylinders with low pressure readings and they don't increase any with the addition of oil, check the valve adjustments and adjust.If they still remain low, it is generally a sign of burnt valves or seats.
     It also sounds as if you would be doing yourself a favor by trying to get ahold of a service manual on this engine, it will likely also have a trouble shooting section that could help you out immensely. Keep us posted and good luck. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 02-13-2007 01:14
Plugs out.  Ignition off.  Finger over the number 1 plug hole.  Have someone crank the engine by hand until you feel pressure on your finger (note the direction the distributor rotor is turning while doing this).  Then continue cranking in the same direction until the top center timing mark is aligned.  I am sorry I don't know where it is on this engine but the lower pulley is a usual place (somebody help me here).  Loosen the clamp on the distributer and turn  until the cam follower on the points is on a high spot on the cam.  Gap the points, usually .015 inches but a responder above says .025 and he may be quoting a manual that I don't have (watch for a built up peak on one point which should be filed off before gap is set)(a new set of points and a condensor is not expensive, probably available at the local auto parts, and recommended).  Now you need a test lamp.  First test it across the battery.  Now ignition to on, one side of the lamp to ground, both low tension terminals on the coil should light the light.  If neither does check for an oil pressure switch and put a jumper across it if you find one.  Perhaps the ignition switch is bad.  Perhaps the circuit is fused and the fuse is blown.  If only one lights the lamp.  Check that you haven't inadvertantly closed the points.  If not take the wire off either at the coil or at the distributor.  If the light now lights you have a ground in the distributor.  If not you have a bad coil.  When you get it so both are hot with the points open rotate the distributor body till the cam follower is at the flat part of the cam.  Test at the terminal on the side of the distributor, the light should be out.  If not points are bad.  If you now take the center wire from the distributor cap and hold it 1/4 inch from the block and open the points with your finger you should get a nice spark.  If not suspect a bad coil.  Now testing at the terminal on the distributor, rotate the distributor body opposite to the way you noted the rotor turning above until the light just comes on.  This will put the engine roughly in time.  Tighten the distributor clamp.  Note the direction the rotor is pointing, the wire that emerges from the distributor cap there is number one.  The plug wires should be installed in firing order starting with one where the rotor is pointing and continuing in the direction the rotor goes.  The firing order is probably cast into the engine somewhere.  I don't know it but there are only two possibilities 1 3 4 2 or 1 2 4 3.  This should be enough to get the engine to run assuming compression and carburation are ok.  After it runs you should reset the timing with a timing light and remove any jumper you may have installed to disable any protective system.
Good luck, call back if this doesnt help.
Bill
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-13-2007 05:46
My mention of .025 is jus a guess, I don't have a manual. The main point being that the points need to close leaving a gap between the cam & wiper, and open cleanly so the magnetic field in the coil colapses. The actual gap is not real critical, in a low speed 4 cilinder engine there is plenty of time for the coil to build a magnetic field. In testing the coil You need to have the condenser in the circut to get a hot spark. Hope this helps.
Parent - - By GMANIAC Date 02-15-2007 09:26
I found there is a fairbanks-morse magneto X4B16A-1.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 02-15-2007 16:13
The Magneto has a impulse mechanism to make it fire at low speeds. Most likely you need to remove the Magneto and go through it.

Not a complicated devise just uses residual magnetism to produce the spark. Sometimes the magnets get weak but not a common problem.

Putting it back in is not like a distributor. The impulse needs to be timed also.

I have rebuilt more of them than I care to count. Contact me via e-mail if you need.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 04-04-2007 13:36
GMANIAC: If the Magneto has been sitting for a long time you may have moisture in it and it will not fire with even a hint of moisture in side.

Check the cap and rotor for any thing out of place or a crack that can lead the spark away. If you used Emery cloth to clean the contacts you need to make sure you did not leave any conductive material in side.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 12-24-2007 01:01
the gap on the points for a distributor is .019 from my book now you know lol
Parent - By Root Pass (***) Date 03-30-2007 03:04
If you have fresh gas and the proper amont of oil you can start it with a friends welding machine by hooking the leads from his machine to yours. This will turn the generator which will then turn the engine over faster and longer than the starter. If it does not start running with this method then you need a mechanic. Just my .02.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / starting a lincoln SA-200 gas welder

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