Structual Welding unsafe conditions

Date 02-21-2007 02:25

I am wondering why beam setting is done with welding instead of bolting? This sounde like amateur hour, both with the erector and the EOR. Is there an EOR, or is this designed in the shop?

By wrangler97 (*)

Date 02-21-2007 02:36

i agree, all of it should be bolted, however we are doing an addition so maybe it has something to do with the existing conditions?

By wrangler97 (*)

Date 02-21-2007 02:39

def ametuer hour!

By CWI555

Date 02-21-2007 04:16

All I'll say to that is my life and the life of others is worth more than any job.

By wildchild200200 Date 02-21-2007 05:23

dee de dee sounds like a accident lookin to happen, puttin deckin down n no weld out on top side???

By darren

Date 02-21-2007 10:23

next
you are not going to change the situation. the only question is whether you inform the authorities. my personal belief is that it will do nothing but sully your reputation to stay or to report them, so just carry on and forget about this job.

ask yourself if your son was in the same situation?, what would you want for him and that is what you should expect for yourself. lead by example.

i also realize that real life is tougher than a response from a stranger on a welding forum. know that there are people out there that want someone who is interested in being safe.
darren
good luck

By wrangler97 (*)

Date 02-21-2007 10:57

thanks darren well put,

i guess you could say i would be afraid of messing up my reputation, i really like this company, but he is taking on a job that he is not equipped(machinery/experienced people) for. we have never been in an unsafe situation like this before, ive never had this feeling at the job before. i cant say but so much before i start pissing people off. well we got all the decking laid last night, and as we laid it i did puddle it down so its not sliding everywhere, and to keep the sheets square...only a few more days on this job so i will only be able to ride it out.

By TimGary (****)

Date 02-21-2007 15:10

Hi Wrangler,

I've been where you're at, and it sucks. Your employer is allowing greed to override common sense and it will eventually catch up with him.
I used to work for an offshore oilrig manufacturer and operator. When a rig goes down for repairs or additions it stops making money and starts costing money instead. This would drive the employer crazy with greed and they would push to extreme limits to get the job done. Not one extra penny would be spent on anything not absolutely required, including safety or adequate material handling equipment. It was so bad that even if we could set a beam safely with a crane, but the crane was on the other side of the yard, we not be allowed to slow down long enough to wait for the crane and had to improvise jury-rigged methods instead. Compound this by working 18 - 20 hour shifts for days on end, in the southern Louisiana heat. I took it all in as just doing what it takes to get the job done and did my best. We had a lot of close calls, but we all knew what we were doing and got the jobs done anyway.
Then one day, while doing something stupid but required to keep the work flowing, I watched my friend get crushed from the waist down. When the doctors were finished, they had amputated everything below his navel, including his pelvis and most of his intestines. They just sewed his butt cheeks to his stomach, installed digestive drains and waited for him to die. The tough SOB lasted for 3 years like that. Do you think the company then wised up? Hell no! They just let their insurance company sue my injured friend for damaged equipment and down time and refused to pay medical bills, while they continued on as usual.
I now consider that putting myself at risk for that company was one of the stupidest things I've done. There are plenty of places to work out there that do not operate with self-defeating methods. You only get one go around at this life. Why take chances that you know are bound to catch up with you eventually?
Think about it....
Tim

By wildchild200200 Date 02-21-2007 16:28

well guys it wouldn,t be the first time some one dropped dime n called OSHA, pretty much what they are there for ,sometimes companys got to kicked in the balls to learn that we are NOT disposable.look them up n call from a pay phone, tell osha the situation n see if they can help.never know

By hogan

Date 02-21-2007 18:37

i worked a job, as a replacement inspection firm was required, after the collapse of a 4 story parking structure. the erector was putting only one bolt in each connection, and moving on to the next. this was the reason for the collapse - two of there employees were killed in the accident. aisc requires the use of at least two bolts per connection, i'm not sure about the welding requirements

By eekpod

Date 02-21-2007 20:41

Which makes me wonder, does the top flange of the beam need to be full pen'ed to the column, and now that the decking is covering this connection will it ever get welded if it's that design? Will they take the time to cut the decking back to weld it, and if needed allow UT insp.

In the long run, you have to be able to sleep at night. Anyone can cut corners and go along w/ the crowd, it takes someone who cares and has the courage to rise above the others. Good Luck

By wrangler97 (*)

Date 02-22-2007 04:21

hey guys, i really appreciate the input. i got a call today from metalskills, in which i thought the timing on this was a "sign" i guess you could say. so i will get the full info on that job...

as far as the current one,

i finally let him get pissed at me and hit him hard with the fact that the welding needed to be completed, we got all the decking laid and tacked(finished the few noched places and i welded out what i could in the time frame i had

what the whole deal is... in greenville, sc the local baseball team(greenville drive) had a stadium built last year(we got the contract for all ornamental steel(including, handrails, cable railing, fencing, the big green wall, and a few other things)) so i think that we got the contract for these mods, because we were local, and were willing, and they like our previous work. EMJ is the gen con. so we added a 30x60 party deck and more storage are in the elevator area...

i hung and welded all the beams in the elevator area... welded clips to the exsisting beams and bolted to the new beams(the placement of new beams didnt allow for us to bolt to exsisting beams) welds were great no problems... well for some reason he comes back and wants me to weld all clips all the way out....so i do.

i had some other aluminum work going on at the shop and some other guys started setting the other set of beams... seems like it went downhill when i got to the shop...

hopefully ill be able to scoot out of that shop and move on...

i dont want for them to have to make a mistake to learn from, but you can only do so much before you are wasting your breath.

once again thanks.

By XPERTFAB (**)

Date 02-23-2007 03:20

If you have ever had to sift through the rubble of a building badly damaged by any disaster like an earthquake, an explosion, or worse yet a structural failure; you would pay very close heed not only to the words in this forum protecting your butt but also the words of those who are depenednt on you for teir life safety. cheating on the required welding to get the job done is only inviting the angel of death to take up residence. In 1994 I spent too much time searching for survivors in an apartment building in Los Angeles following a disaster while their loved ones waited anxiously on the sidewalk out front. The general contractor had cheated on the nailing of the wood frame construction and the results were obvious. I along with many others did not have the news these people were hoping for about their loved ones. There is group of those who felt the same pain in Kanas citry. This is no joke and your inner voice is telling you so. The people who sponsor this forum don't see this as a laughing matter either. Building codes including the adopted portions of this welding code all have one common intent throughout and that is life safety. Not that you understand that! Do not compromise another's life!!! If you can't deal with your boss then somehow let the structural engineer know what is going on. If that is not an option, then speak in private with the local building official. The decks you puddle welded do not typically get poured with paper mache'. at an average of 150lbs per cubic foot for structural concrete, there is a hell of a load on those welded connections. Gravity takes no prisoners so you figure out what to do! If you are still in a quandry about what to do email me privately and I will help. Crap like you are writing about only strengthens my resolve to work harder to put jokers like this back into the hole where they belong. I love ironwork in any capacity and your idiot employer is making my trade look really bad right now!!
Xpertfab

By XPERTFAB (**)

Date 02-23-2007 03:23

My apologies to the forum members for the typos in last post here but the hairs on back of my neck affect my typing skills when I get this conviction....
Xpertfab

By ross

Date 02-23-2007 15:21

No apologies necessary.

By the way, you can always go back and edit your own posts (after you calm down). There's an edit link that shows up under each of your own posts.

Ross
AWS Marketing

By hogan

Date 02-23-2007 18:52

i have also seen where the special inspector bought off a second floor deck, for the puddle welds, button punch, and stud welding. the only problem was that the contractor had forgotten to perform work in two bays. this was on the second floor deck. when it was poured the deck seams split open in the area of incomplete work and dumped about two to three inches of concrete from the entire floor on the floor below. luckly the onsite policy did not allow crafts to work under a floor being poured.

By wrangler97 (*)

Date 04-19-2007 23:46

THANK YOU

thats what i needed to hear, i know deep down that crap is not right, and not safe, well we got the job finished and as of today i quit that company and now im going somewhere else. the job now is just a small fab shop and nothing like that will be taking place. we put 70+hrs a week in that job and we were all tired and working when we were wore out(the worst time possibly) there was a few nights were we were out till 1am in the morning after getting there at 7am. i finally got fed up w/ the boocrap and jumped out. after that stadium got finished, i started working up some ornamental alum railings for a bank in tennesse. im about half way done and they wont get me any decent help, nor will they get me appropriate equipment. only thing i can say is thier day will come(hopefully not i dont want anyone hurt) but they will wake up. i am the first of 4 people to leave this shop in about a week.

once again thank you and i do understand what you are saying and shortcuts are what they say they are.

i plan on moving on down to charleston, sc in december and gettin me a job on or around the shipyard, i really want to get into u/w welding
and i think that will be a great place to start and its local to some family.

thanks again!

By XPERTFAB (**)

Date 05-10-2007 04:24

Reading your post made me smile and I am glad you saw the light!!! Make sure that there are no skeletons that remain to haunt you in the future. As for underwater welding, I wish you luck. A very good friend of mine having spent countless thousands of dollars on schooling and a couple of years in the u/w trade just gave it up and set up a truck to work on his own in the field. As he pointed out, the demand for u/w welding in locations of the world you would actually consider risking your life to work in is becoming far fewer. U/W construction is again evolving and beginning to move more away from this rather costly (to the companies) process.
Sadly in today's world there is an increasing number of jokers like that superintendent you spoke of. Remember the life and safety of an innocent other begins with you and continues through every electrode you burn. Take crap off no one when it comes to this!! You may lose a couple of jobs, but in the end you be way ahead. There are others on this forum whom like myself, with some years of experience, have found some of the best triumphs of their careers came from the jobs they lost or walked away from because of situations just like you described. This is not an easy trade and it matters not whether your welding structural steel, pipe or shopping carts together, there will always be challenges. They either kick you in the face or you turn around and kick them! Whenever situations grow to the point for a whoopa#$; I say it's always better to "give" then to "recieve". Don't ever forget the biggest problems in construction today do not come from the materials or tools used, but rather the people. Most of these people are the ones you'll be working for.
Your skills are what you have become and what it is you do. Each day they get a little better even with no other effort put forth on your part beyond just the repetition of welding/fabricating. Your skills are sold as a commodity by either yourself directly or by others for a profit. When you drag up and move on for just cause, you send a very clear message to the bean counters of the group about the dent you just put in their profits without your skills to sell. Small is the percentage of people in this country clamoring for a job working hard as a welder.
Be gracious in your demands, while being true to yourself and the others around you. One day some years from now you might possibly find as myself that learning to weld was the greatest gift ever given to you on this planet and the freedom to pursue this is the envy of many of those firmly stuck in "Corporate America" Work for yourself to develop a "thick skin" as this certainly is an asset in this trade. Best to you! Keep us posted on your progress.
XPERTFAB

By aevald

Date 02-21-2007 21:09

Hello hogan, would you be referring to the PDX incident? That truly was a sad example of putting the cart ahead of the horse and the result was, as you said, the loss of life for a couple of family men and no chance to backup and do it right. Regards, aevald

By hogan

Date 02-21-2007 21:42

it was pdx

By eekpod

Date 02-22-2007 20:27

What happened on the PDX job, I never heard of it.

By hogan

Date 02-22-2007 20:58

the building had a typical square moment frame. they had erected a few floors, using only one bolt in most of the connections at the web. with only one bolt the connections were allowed to pivot. once it started to pivot it just kept going

By makeithot (***)

Date 02-23-2007 17:09

I would not worry so much about pissing the boss off when it comes to safety issues, if he does not whish to listen to the voice of reason thats his mistake not your's . I believe that going to the inspector in this regard would not be out of the ordinary,nobody can fault you for taking the moral high ground. I never loose much sleep myself when dealing with people like that. No amount of money is worth it .

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 05-10-2007 09:34

HMMMMM.......

Sounds pretty bs to me dude......Columns are BOLTED not welded......If there is an Ironworking Union in your area you should call them and apply.....Welders are like gold on an Ironworking site (usually) and you will be treated well. A 3g AWS on mild steel is usually all thats required to do Ironwork. The pay might be better and you can definitely get benifits with the union job...as well as much safer conditions.
Jeez man I did not even have to strol out my leads or get ladders and such.....firewatcher on every weld...pretty easy money considering it was Ironwork.

I guess what i am trying to say is....you got to make a living and eat...but if the job is comprimising your own principles then you need to leave...there are more jobs out there.