The main reason for my post was to see if any trade schools out there in welder training land were operating with a $150k to $200k budget. Over the past five years my company has had the giant task of having to train and test nearly 250 newly hired employees in order to replace our aged and now retired workforce. These welders had 35 to 45 years of experience and they had earned the right to retire early. Five years ago, when I transferred here out of field construction and into manufacturing, 60% to 65% of our 560 member workforce was either eligible to retire or very soon eligible to retire. We are now down to about 12% to 15% remaining that could retire in the next five years or so.
I don't know how much you may know about northeast Mississippi, but it is not very populated and thus we didn't have the luxury of a large pool of people experienced in industrial, construction, or manufacturing welding to replace this exiting workforce. There was no way in the world that the surrounding community colleges and vocational schools could have even come close to supplying us the qualified personnel we needed initially to fill our needs. And so it was that I and my weld specialists here at this plant worked two shifts, five days a week, 8 hours per day on solid welder training and testing on an average of 20 days per welder and for up to 20 welders in the lab per shift at a time just to get them "qualified" enough to go and begin working on our product. Believe me I can go on and on about the number of tests and all kinds of issues we have had to endure in order to get good help.
Fellow tradesmen welders, inspectors, engineers...you probably know just as well as I do that it takes a certain period of time for an individual to become skilled in welding. So in some ways I feel that we have pulled off a miracle when we can take people off the street who oftentimes have marginal welding training and in a compressed 20 day period we have them ready to weld with the SMAW, GMAW, and
FCAW welding processes; carbon, stainless, and inconel materials; unlimited thickness ranges and diameters in each process; plate and pipe; and then provide mock-up training for certain of our product lines. All total, each of our welders must pass 13 weld tests to be able to become "welder" in our plant.
Now, to be quite fair, not all of these people are "welders" when they come out of our weld lab and I most certainly will never make that claim to my managers nor anywhere in public. The fact is that most of these guys and gals are still rod burners/wire consumers. Not everyone can make the claim to fame that they are a welder, truly until they gain that thing called experience. And that magic length of time to become experienced is certainly greater than 20 days or 90 days. There is a big reason that there are skilled welding trade apprenticeship programs that last four and five years.
All of our welder training has taken place over the past five years and my company has spent an un-godly amount of money training and testing these welders. And by the looks of our remaining work force, we're not finished yet. But is it truly a company's responsibility to have to endure all of these costs associated with welder training? Could these welders not have been trained sufficiently at the vocational/technological education institutions so that I didn't have to retrain them when they show up at my door? What ever happened to the "make or break" welding tests? Why do we as a company have to train people how to read a tape? Or a blueprint? Or perform simple
shop math?
So my point to posting the original message was not so much a plea for help in training the welders as it was a complaint that I have when it comes to welder training and education. I don't think that there are too many places in the world that would have to have an operating budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as we have had to endure. Maybe I'm all wet, but I don't think so. I'm not talking facility and equipment overhead in these numbers either....just labor hours we had to spend on each welder and for my weld specialists and my time plus the test materials we used for the training and final testing. How many schools have that kind of money? Better question yet, how many would like to but couldn't because their institution would take the money and apply it to some other "better" program? How many company's can even think about having to take that kind
of money out of operating budgets to support such a program and still remain competitive and still make money?
I apologize for the length of my post....I hope you can tell that I am
quite impassioned with this thing called welding. It has been my life....it
has made me a very good living....and I hate to see the trade seemingly
disintegrate from existence because of a lack of understanding from those who should know better, the education system. And no, I am not educator bashing here...please do not take it as such. The "problems" generally lie way before the secondary and post secondary educator ever gets involved.
There are some good schools around the country which I have had the opportunity to see first hand and they work hard to preserve the trade, and if you are associated with one keep it up...do us proud. But there are far more out there who seem to be quite content with their little 1 year certificate program and whose final test consists of being graded on how well they made their barbeque grill or utility trailer. Nothing inherently wrong with that providing there is a major boom in the marketplace to sell these things. Could these be the welders that were a dime a dozen I heard so much about 10 years or so ago?
And finally, it is totally unacceptable for the school systems to pass through the grades individuals lacking in simple shop math/tape skills and who had been the schools worst misfits having no better place to go than in welding or metal trades just for the sake of getting them out of their hair.
Anyone else experiencing the same afflictions?
im from the mississippi area and will be looking for work after i get out of the Navy in Oct 02 ...what is your avg. pay for a welder that has certs in SMAW ( pipe and plate) or your avg starting wage to a qualified candidate. I will also be CWI certified by that time. Do you need any to join your workforce
Thanks
David
Thanks for responding to my post. At this time, all welders regardless of previous certs enter our facility through what we call a Fitter/Welder C program. This is our training classification. Our average completion time spanning the five years I have been involved with the program is 4 weeks or 20 days per welder to go from the entry level helper pay to Fitter/Welder C pay. The maximum time we allow a candidate is 6 weeks and we have had some who were able to test out within 7 to 8 days. The successful candidate then has a 90 day minimum trial time working on the floor where they hopefully learn some fitting and blueprint reading skills to go along with their previously tested welding skills.
If they are able to prove themselves on the job they are then eligible to take 4 more welding tests and attempt a bid into the Fitter/Welder B classification. Most candidates reach this classification within their first 120 to 180 day time frame. The candidate has a maximum time of 1 year to reach the Fitter/Welder B classification.
What does that equat to per welder in the program? Also, what does it equate to per welder qualified & employed?
Hello Andy,
What this equates to per welder strictly in "non-productive" time is approximately $4,500 per welder. Out of the 250 or so welders we have trained and placed into the workforce, we have had less than 5 who could not meet the challenge to become a welder. Pretty good average I'd say. The average "total" dollar per welder including their time on the floor (where they are supposedly making all perfect welds you know) is on average $12,250 per welder by the time they reach Fitter/Welder B. (See post above.) That equates to about 40% of their time being devoted to training within their first 180 days.
But of the remaining 245 not all of these have managed to keep their jobs due to silly things like not showing up for work, refusing to work safely, refusing work instructions, etc. and others just quit and move on to work elsewhere. Just guessing off the top of my head we probably have lost 40 to 50% of these new hires to issues such as these.
So what does that tell me? It is fairly clear that just training welders for entry level jobs is not all that is required in any training program. Getting the job is entirely different than that of KEEPING their job. There are far more issues than just the tactile event in learning the hands on skill of welding; somehow we must address the social side of the occupation and we must do a better job in recruiting candidates to occupy our welding classes/schools. How do you teach desire or pride in your work?
I teach in a secondary high school level 3 welding program in western KY. I would estimate my yearly budget to be 10% or less of the amount you and your company are spending on welder education and training. I am training my students on equipment that is old but still acceptable for training. Our local population is also a rural community with very little industry available for job placement of our graduating students.
As for the problem of having employees who are reliable and eager to work, I see the same poor habits in many of the students who enter my program. They are frequently tardy for class or have unexcused absences. When they are on time and in class, I have to constantly reassure them that they cannot make just a couple 1F lap joints and be certified welders. That welding is something that must be practiced constantly in many different processes, procedures, and positions and then be able to reproduce the same acceptable welds to be prepared enough to try and certify. Many of the students that enroll in my class do not posses the most basic education skills (writing, reading, mathematics, communication skills). To add to the problem, our students must be assessed each year to determine that they being educated to the level that our state says that they should be. If the students tested have scores that remain at about the same level or improve, then our school is said to be reaching a predetermined level of proficiency. If our students' test scores fall below their previous scores, then the state says that we are in a period of decline. If we are reaching proficiency, the local district receives money from the state called rewards money. This is to be used to continually improve scores by adding new text or materials. If we go into decline, money is withheld from the local district at the state level until the scores improve. What this "incentive method" has done is place importance ONLY on teaching the material that is covered on the assessment test. Unfortunately, welding is nowhere to be seen in the assessment test questions. Neither is shop/welding math, tape measurement, employability skills, blueprint reading or job quality. This has forced me and other career and technical education instructors to become math, science, English, and even history teachers as well as welding, carpentry, or diesel instructors.
The plan for next year is to improve my program. I am going to try to purchase some new equipment so I can teach my students to use some advanced technology and see how it can improve their skills and employability. I will offer a curriculum that will match what is being taught in post-secondary career and technical schools. This will allow my students to receive credit for courses that they have passed in my program and reduce the amount of time and training that they would have had to repeat at the career and technical school. I also plan to offer adults the opportunity to enroll in my program when I have vacancies. This should help an older workforce get new or additional training as well as allow my students to interact and learn along side others who have seen just what life is like once they left high school. Most importantly, I intend to involve what little business and industry that there is in my area in the design and improvement of my program.
One step that could help both situations is for you and your company to get involved with the local career and technical welding schools and help in developing curriculum, aid in purchasing equipment and materials, provide advice in planning for future changes in the local industry, provide on the job training for students and off site training for your companies’ new hires. This could help improve the quality of students that the career and technical schools produce, and help to lower your companies’ training cost by letting the schools do the training to suit their individual needs, plus free up you and your welding specialists time to do the jobs that you were initially hired to do. I would bet that if you talked with the welding instructors in your area, I would be on target with their same thoughts and ideas.
I don’t have all the answers to either of our problems, but it sure couldn’t hurt to at least give it a try. I don’t know how to solve the disintegration of the soft skills that both our students and employees are exhibiting. I think at some point individual responsibility has to become an important virtue again.
Would you mind greatly if I printed your post and showed it to the board of trustees at my college who think that they need to cut our welding program? They really have NO CLUE how the entire nation is in need of welders and that the problem is getting worse. If I cannot share it with the board, would you mind if I share it with my department, or my teacher? We are in California, but due to some really great people in the AWS I have found out to my dismay, that there are shortages of money and welders all over the nation. As it is, I will have to relocate to continue welding, all my teachers will be laid off and the entire welding and auto department will be rumor has it, turned into a college bookstore! Someone told me to come to the forum to get help for my college, Santa Monica College and so I am here! Oh... as I heard from the auto teacher ( our welding department is considered part of the auto department) that we need $800K to stay afloat. I am assuming that is per year. I'll tell ya, I bet your new welding employees have no idea what a luxury it was to be trained by your company, huh?
quality 101,
I didn't see where you responded to the question about pay. What do new hire welders make ? What do fully qualified welders make? What type of benifit package do you offer?
These are critical questions to answer in a difficult search for highly qualified welders, especially in an area you describe as not highly populated.
There are good welders out there and they may or may not be drawn to your company for many reasons, including compensation.
My first thought when reading your post, is that if you used the money presently spent on training on increased welder compensation, you might attract a more qualified candidate, and retention of good employees might well increase.
Our welders are paid very well. I expect and get, a lot from them, including strong work habits and representing the company well in front of our customers with little or no supervision(most of our work is in the field).
As a small construction related welding service I know our situation differs a lot from yours. Just a thought.
JTMcC.
Quality 101: You're really just spinning your wheels and throwing money down the gutter. Listen, most manufacturing jobs are going out of this country and greater than 80% of all jobs are service related. Soon America will not know how to manufacture anything but sure will know how to paint your house ,cut your hair and wash your dog. If I'm a CEO and my business is to make money for shareholders why am I going to pay your spoiled American kid $20.00/hr to weld something when I can go to Vietnam and pay a Hungrier kid $3.00/ hr. to do the same job and do it with more pride? Today, American kids know that the American Dream cannot be begotten by working in the construction trade. Parents all across this nation are busting their arses and making tremendous sacrifices to send their kids to college and not to welding school. You will never see the kid with a 3.5-4.0 GPA enroll in welding school--doesn't happen. 4-5 year welding apprenticeships?--What's the reward at the end of those 4-5 years-- a $15.00/hr dirty job. Joe College Boy spent his 5 years getting his pharmacy degree and now is making 6 figures puttin' pills in bottles and doesn't get dirty. ---Very few Americans can handle the truth anymore...
If your hypothetical young welder does a 4 to 5 year apprenticeship, and is making $15/hr, then he is doing something wrong. Between $20 and $35/hr is more like it, depending on location, plus benifits. This in one of the many construction trades that entail quite a bit of welding.
JTMcC.
And I suppose that Pharmacy dude "Joe College Boy" is going to put that boiler back on line when the lights go out? What about that college dude or dudette working at Mickey D's because they can't get a job in their chosen career field after they spent their money or their parents money going to school? Do you think that they would rather work at those wages rather than for working for the piddly $15.00 an hour in that "dirty" old job as you seem to imply?
No, I'm not spinning my wheels. I know that there soon will be a huge hole to fill in manufacturing, industry, and for construction when the seasoned tradesmen leave the trades. ONE of the skill sets that will be missed most will be from those who USED to know how to weld and join those various materials for our bridges, buildings, pipelines, and for a whole plethora and variety of products that require welded connections.
I wouldn't count the American Dream as one that is down and out just yet. With my 3.85 GPA AND my skills as an accomplished welder, I have done very nicely in life thank you very much. And if the guys can't seem to get a handle on the possibility that they might have to "get dirty" while earning a living wage...I'll just bet you that there are a bunch of women out there that could get used to the concept real quick! And they are doing it! Funny thing about dirt...it washes off.
By Muskwa
Date 04-16-2004 01:47
I am a Welding Instructor at a technical college in Canada. With a staff of 41 Instructors we will train approx. 1455 apprentices by the end of this school year. The certification proccess takes a min of 3 years at a tuition cost of @ $3100/per 8 week technical training /per year. During the apprenticeship period, a welder is required to attend three terms of technical training with stringent pass requirements.
The technical training is 240 hours of which it is half practical and half theory. Simply training someone to "burn rod" does not a welder make. A welder needs to have a strong background in the "why" of metal fusion. The curriculum is set by a group of committees called LAC (Local Apprenticeship Committee) who in return report to the central PAC (Provincial Apprenticeship Committee) These committees are made up of stakeholders such as employers and welders. They keep in touch with industry and tell the Technical Colleges what they need from our graduates.
One of the largest complaints/requests that we receive, is the desire for the apprentice to have skills on the job....ready to go....after each period of technical training. And we are indeed meeting that goal.
Now obviously, the hand skills are important. Yet, with Industry support, we do NOT graduate a welder that does not show appropriate levels of skill in work ethic, attitude, theory, math.....and even english. And at the end of their training....they can expect to make 40-100k+/year.
Welding as a Trade is not dying, it is evolving into a higher skillset. And in recognition of this, Employers here have created a charitable foundation with the mandate to approach the high school student with Trades as positive and viable alternative to University. Where you will make the same or better money with no debt at the end of your training.
PS: we are seeing about 10% women entering the Trade here....and the fact that they are good....challenges the men to do better.
Quality101,
This is a very interesting thread that you started. I find work ethic to be our most challenging obstacle. I too have to train a large portion of our welders. I can't simply test a newly hired welding employee anymore, they now need training. Years ago, I can remember new hires could come in and pass a 2G test in SMAW and FCAW and we could put them right to work. I have very few new hires that walk in with those skills already under their belt ready to start work on day one. I find that the Community college here in town wants very much to work with us and we with them, but I think we have different agendas or maybe train of thought as several teachers have pointed out in earlier posts.
I have not sat down to try to put a dollar figure on the training portion of an employee's get up to speed training. Maybe that is something to look at on our part as an employer. I certainly don't have the same amout of training required as you do, simply because of the processes we use, the positions we require our welders to weld in (everything can be positioned either 1G or 2G), and the material is plain ole carbon steel (ASTM A36, ASTM A572 Gr. 50, or ASTM A992) and we use the prequalified procedures right out of AWS D1.1 Structural Steel code.
So, where is the middle ground that we all can stand on to be united in this quest for qualified and skilled welders and fitters?
John Wright
Sorry Ratboy69 my friend,
I have to disagree a little bit. Straight out of high school (back in 1990) I went to college to get an engineering degree in electronics. Everything was really booming in electronics then. My dad (a pipefitter/welder in the union) suggested I check out his union instead. He was making $40.00 an hour then. I wanted to do the electronics thing and make lots of money. 3 years later after much studying, tests, homework, labwork and commuting 2 1/2 hrs. a day and receiving an AAS degree in electronics engineering what do you think my first job as a field tech. paid? a whopping $12.50 and hour. I thought somethings wrong here. 8 months later I tried looking for better pay. Couldn't find much better. A few yrs. later after being electronics tech. at a better company with great bonuses but not better pay a door opened where I could take R.O.P. welding classes FOR FREE at a big pipeline company called Corey Delta. It was free 'cause they wanted you to work for them as soon as you passed your cert. Starting pay there--after me taking roughly one year of classes 3 nights a week would be $17.00 hr. A short time later $20.00 hr at another shop. I know a dozen shops that will hire any cert. welder for $20.00 on the spot, with raises soon after. 10 years later now and I own my own welding business and it's the best thing I've ever done.
3 years and $20,000 worth of college got me $12.50 hr.
1 year of free welding classes--priceless--
Point is-skilled labor-especially darn good welders- are getting harder to find-and pays VERRY well.
Dr.D, The community college you went to did not give you a 4 year degree. A 4 year degree is the engineering degree. A 2 year degree in electronics is absolutely worthless no wonder you didn't make any money with that degree. A and B high schoolers don't go into welding period. They go on to college for what ever reason.
Hey ratboy69, I was a A and B student in high school. I graduated joined the army and learned how to weld. I did not want to go to college get a degree and spend the rest of my life as a desk jockey pushing paper work. Many years later I am the Quality Control Manager at a steel fabrication shop spending most of my time pushing the paper I would have hated at 18. The best part is I do not have any student loans to pay back. I had to take bogus placement test when I got out of the army.The guy who gave me the test was mad when I told him what I was going to do for a living. He told me I was to smart to waste my time with welding. That is the problem with schools today.To many teachers and other people are telling kids what jobs they need to have instead of letting them chose the job the student wants. I hear alot of people who went to college always saying I hate my job my job sucks. You tell them to quit the job they hate and all they can say is no I like the money. I enjoy my job. If a time comes when I hate my job,you could not pay me enough money to keep doing it.
