By Kurt 2
Date 03-27-2007 09:56
Edited 03-31-2007 11:48
I believe that my dragline buckets are made of magnesium. Does this sound right? In fact all the bucket components, chains, links,ect. are very light and non magnetic. What do I use for build up, and crack repair. I have both stick and wire machines. Usually have to work on bucket in evening so we build a fire beside the pond and flip bucket over on it to preheat. I've had good luck with 8018 but would like to know the specifics. Also, are there safety issues with this material?
Is mangenese magnetic ? How much does material analysis cost? I only paid 5,000.00 for the dragline,but with our wetland laws and this machine's portability it is very useful. Esco would be happy to sell me buckets and chains but shipping to alaska takes all the fun right out of this idea. Otherwise they are vague at best as to building up chains and keeping 50 year old buckets on-line.
I've been told that the "carriage" and chains are some kind of magnesium alloy that makes for a very hard but malable piece that is also very light. One bucket is Esco, the rest have no markings left. I found one bucket that had been dropped and broke. It is a cast bucket and where it broke it is 1.5 inches thick. I suppose I'll have to leave a heater on this for a couple of days after it's fixed providing I can find a suitable consumable.
Thanks for all the help.
I doubt it could be made of MAgnesium. I believe it may be made of Manganese steel. Possibly, "Hadfields Manganese" is used for the cutting edges and bits. E8018 probably should not be used. With this material you should get a manufcaturer's recommendation for the proper electrode to use when making repairs. If it is non-magnetic, it probably has in excess ot 9% Nickel, or it has hard facing material on it where you put the magnet.
I'm guessing that Joe is right, manganese is used for wear resistant surfaces. We use a SMAW rod made by stoody that welded "sorta OK". We used it to repair the manganese plates in our shot blast. If you use some of those electrodes with alot of manganese/nickel in them, keep your head out of that plumb, it is some nasty stuff(read the MSDS sheets on it).
Magnesium is similar to aluminum...way too soft for a bucket.
As the others have mentioned, it is highly unlikely the bucket is magnesium - it is probably at least partly manganese steel.
For manganese build up and joining, Stoody Nicromang (wire or stick) will work. If there is carbon steel involved, use Stoody 110 (wire) or 2110 (stick). Data sheets are available at www.stoody.com
As for the chains I would be cautious - I doubt if those are Mn-steel...might need to ask the manufacturer for more information.
The material is DEFINETELY NOT magnesium. It may be possibly, but not certainly, high manganese steel, as the other gentlemen guessed. But it could be also, for example, alloy white cast iron such as Ni Hard (Inco's proprietary alloy).
As we're not sure on what metal it is, Kurt 2 should get in contact with the dragline manufacturer and ask his recommendation as to which electrode to use, unless he's willing to run a chemical analysis of the material.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
this is all assuming that it has not been re-edged or rebuilt with an unknown material, for the best results, the metal should be either tested or identified as original equipment manufacture issue, if oem then have the oem give their metallurgical profile (if they will) and either go with the consumable they suggest or make a decision based on the metallurgical profile given by oem or independent analysis. it might seem like a lot but depending on size, usage and production/maintenance schedule of your bucket you could make a very big difference in overall costs. as always there are some very informed answers from the other members in this forum so if you can find out more info post it as i am sure there will be more great responses forthcoming. it will also give others the info they might need to solve their problem in the future.
any pictures you could post?
darren
Darren,
what does "oem" mean?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Hello Giovanni,
Original Equipment Manufacturer,
The material composition is usually a closely guarded secret by the OEMs and it can be a nightmare to find out anything from them.
We have done extensive repair work on draglines manufactured by 3 very large American companies and getting information is nigh on impossible. Even when you own the multi-million dollar the specifications and manuals that you are given contain coded numbers for the materials instead of the grade.
Generally we cut a small piece off and send away for chemical analysis. We have also taken drill swarf to do the same thing when you can't cut some of the metal.
It is vitally important to get the composition right so you can use the right electrodes because every hour that dragline is not moving dirt it is costing someone a fortune.
Regards,
Shane
Nobody has given a real answer yet....I'm stamping my foot and have a furled brow!
Sourdough,
Nobody can give an answer because the type of machine and type of bucket is not mentioned and even if it was it is highly unlikely someone knows unless they have done a chemical analysis of the exact material before.
As I said before the chemical composition is proprietary information and the OEM is not usually keen on letting their competitors or anyone for that matter know what it is.
I would bet you there are thousands of companies out there who weld up cracks daily in heavy earthmoving machinery without having a clue of what the material is.
Must be carbon steel so E7018 will be fine.
Now stop stamping and unfurl ya brow,
Cheers,
Shane
By Sourdough 
Date 03-28-2007 19:04
Edited 03-28-2007 19:07
Shane Feder ....I GOT YA!!
The base material on these buckets is -almost- always T-1 plate. It's fine to use 7018 on minor patches, and I do mean minor. The "wear package", which is the second layer is 9 times out of 10 ar400. This requires 8018 up to the cap, which you should always cap with11018!
You guys thought I was just being a pain in the arse again, huh?!
Oh, and the bucket will move. DO NOT make more than 16 inches at a time. Heat will really screw you on these repairs. You cant afford to buy a dragline bucket, neither can your insurance.
By Kurt 2
Date 03-31-2007 11:21
Shane, I think you are exactly right about all the people who just have to go for it without knowing what they are working on. I am getting a new grasp on the fact that oem may not want to let out their trade secrets. They also would be happy to sell me buckets and chains. Unfortunatly this is Fairbanks, Alaska. Fortunatly, we have been doing so much with so little for so long that we can now do almost anything with almost nothing. Thanks to you and everyone else for taking the time to help inform me, Kurt
I think that cumulatively the answer to the question is there, he needs more info; and the real question is if someone can afford to purchase/operate this equipment why cant they afford a wps and a comprehensive maintenance program? youd think that they would have a repair procedure right from the day they bought the equip. kinda insane to think that a drag-line would last forever and not have a maintenance service plan in place BEFORE spending money on equip.
these things do happen and often as it seems it is left to the welder to figure out, good on kurt 2 for having tried to solve what i would consider an engineers, the product rep/salesman or at very least managements decision.
please keep us posted
darren
awsome info gents, what does a metallurgical analysis cost by the way
The huge weldment that makes up a dragline bucket is composed of a lot of different materials. There is some High Yield Q & T alloy steel in there, some milder steel plates like 572 gr 50...the structural plates that construct the bucket are strategically covered with some type of hard wear plate package that is specifically engineered for the type of dirt the dragline is digging into, the jaw plate parts are sometimes cast austinetic magnesium alloys designed to accept replaceable consumable teeth...etc.
Sourdough,
90% of the buckets in Australia are made from the American equivalent of AS 3678 Grade 350.
There was no point posting that on this forum as it is an American forum and no one would have a clue what I was talking about.
We only found this out by doing a chemical analysis.
Have a look in a Bucyrus, Marion or P&H parts manual and see if you can find the grades of steel used in the building of their machines.It isn't there, the only things are part numbers.
It is pretty hard to formulate welding procedures when you have no idea of material.
And before you ask, why didn't we just ask them ? we were in direct competition with them for lucrative repair work so they weren't going to assist us.
Regards,
Shane
No sweat, man! I just like to give some flavor to things around here.
Kurt,
I am suprised that no one asked who manufactured your bucket, or how big it is. Bot have some brearing on how you will repair it.
here's the deal. It's an old koering dragline, 1947. It's also very small, 3/4 yard. This makes it very mobile which is very desirable. I have several buckets at least one of which is a Esco. For the most part they all have what I have heard called a carriage, this makes up the shape of the bucket with the lifting and pull points and then wear sections that are either welded or riveted in place. I have one that has a cast carriage that was dropped and broke the cast where it is 1.5 inches thick. The rest are plate with the arches welded together. I,ve been told that the material was magnesium,same as the chains. They are very light for their mass, completely non magnetic, and have a distinctive high pitch "tink" to them when hit together. One of my pull points are broken off and I would like to square it up and replace the missing "chunk". I would like to try to get as close as I can to using a comparable metal. I've also had good luck with the repairs and build-up that I've done using 8018 and stoody hardfacing, but no one likes being clueless. I really cannot thank you guys enough.
I don't think magnesium will give you that "tink" sound when tapping the pieces(links) together, magnesium is way too soft to make that sound. Magnesium is soft like aluminum and is sometimes confused as such. To make the "tink" sound, I would venture to say that it is a very hard material.
Kurt, I beleive that your parts are made of Manganese, which is non magnetic and is commonly used for lips and chains. There are several products for joining manganese, go to the Lincoln site and search consumables.
I have not yet had to repair a broken part, but I have done rebuilds joining steel to manganese using 309L stainless
If you have welded it with 8018 I really doubt it's magnesium. Magnesium (pure) would catch fire. If it's manganese steel (or any other mystery metal for that matter) be really careful about ventilation, wear a respirator and so forth. Inhaled manganese vapor has serious and irreversable bad effects as do many other metal vapors.
Bill
Maganese steel was used for hoist chains, trunnions, bushings and bucket lips on alot of older buckets, 309L works great for repairs or mild buildups. Ya can tell thier manganese steel after running 7018 on them and you here that, "Tink" sound..(:0.. Oh... and it makes some real pretty colors in the finished bead.
Use a magnet to check components for manganese steel. If it's non magnetic or slight use the 309L.
On the magnetic parts use properly stored/handled 8018, preheat and maintain critical welds to 200f until complete. Open root type gaps are ok, but wear plates need to be gap free for toughness.
Try it
Randy
