Union work in shops?

Date 03-31-2007 16:21

There are union shops and there are open-shop companies. Depending on the area of the country you live in, it may be difficult to find a union shop and fewer still that have apprenticeship programs in place.

What trade are you interested in? I don't know of any "Welder Apprenticeships" because welding is considered to be a "tool of the trades", thus it is just one component of nearly every trade you can think of.

Most of the trade unions have a presence in Washinton, DC, you may be able to do an internet search to locate their headquarters and then direct your questions to them. They would have a listing of all the union companies that have agreements with that union. For instance, if you are interested in pipefitting, find their headquarters and ask what companies in your area are union and if there are openings in their apprenticeship programs. Most union companies do have apprenticeship programs, but it depends on their work load whether they have openings in their training programs.

Good luck.

Al

By Shipfitter Date 03-31-2007 20:34

I've worked both union and non union......If you're a good worker, and you being paid fairly etc. the only thing you need a union for is to protect you from getting screwed by some bosses that can be pricks......However on the flip side the union also tends to protect the slackers too.....

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 03-31-2007 21:55

The union does a little more than just protect one from some jerk bosses. How about retirement, insurance, paid apprenticeship training....

By Shipfitter Date 04-01-2007 12:53

Good point and I totally agree.....I wouldn't have the standard of living that I enjoy if it wasn't for the Union.....My Journeymans card has kept my family fed and well.

By Kix

Date 04-02-2007 12:40

Shop is only good in the winter time brotha.lol Shop gets old real quick after you have been out and about for a little while. In the shop you have to work twice as hard to stay in there and You could have someone breathing down your neck all the time.

By js55

Date 04-02-2007 13:54

Shops will also make you a better welder. You weld maybe 30 or 40 times the amount of welds. You are generally exposed to a greater diversity of alloys(depending upon the shop of course), and are certainly exposed to a greater diversity of processes. In the shops you generally have a greater opportunity to learn about things such as sand blasting, pipe bending, PWHT, and NDE as well. And you don't spend half your day draggin around those dayum leads, climbing up and down scaffolds, and out of ditches. You don't have to drive so far to work, and you generally don't carry your life in a suitcase and live out of motels (though some guys like this). And, and, you dont have to do your business in stinking sweltering/freezing blue rooms, or behind a bush. Shops were very very good to me.

By JTMcC

Date 04-02-2007 15:53 Edited 04-02-2007 15:57

There are inside people and there are outside people. There are people who crave stability and sameness and there are people who like to go new places and see different things. Inside people tend to work in shop environments and outside folks tend to work, you guessed it, out in the elements.

As for making 30 or 40 times the number of welds, that's total you know what. Seeing how in my line of work, pipeline welding, a welder will commonly burn a 50 lbs. can of 3/16" 70+ (or close to it) in the course of a 10 hour day we can assume that it's humanly impossible for one welder to burn 30 to 40 cans (2000 lbs.) of rod per day. As for dragging leads, that's the helpers job, not the welders. Why pray tell would a welder WANT to learn anything about sandblasting??? Pipe is bent everytime you encounter a hill in my world.

The drive to work is one of the best parts.

I wouldn't dog on a mans choice to work inside for his lifetime, that's appealing to many. But it continually suprises me the number of steady job types that dog on the guy who likes to be out in it.

The world is full of people with steady jobs, who spend their weekends and vacation time attempting to get away. I get paid to get away, get to go four wheeling during my commute, picnic every day, I love it but that's just me.

JTMcC.

As for "shops" making you a better welder, another load of you know what, The drive to improve ones level of skill resides within the individual, not in a climate controlled building. I will say that in my world, the fact that there is a ratio of almost 1:1, welder:inspector, and normally 100% X ray has an effect. Harsh inspection results in better welds and better welders.

By eagles1972fan (*)

Date 04-02-2007 16:25

That was said very well JTMcC ! I worked both shop and now in the field. I am a field guy. From setting up your welder with 500ft of lead to th wind all a big challenge. One day your one machine and the next your one anther. From 1" SS one day to weling 1/8" steel the next.All out of postion welding and you have to change the way you run your beads or you walk 10 floors back down to reset it. Now like I said it was nice tuning in your machine to run 7018 to were you could run strait and it was nice to get out of the cold and the rain .But i love being out there !!!!

By js55

Date 04-02-2007 16:52

I wasn't doggin on nobody, just arguing some advantages of shop work. And certainly your pipeline perspective is valid. Spent some time on pipelines myself, I still to this day have friends who would wish nothing else, and would be in complete agreement with you, but I never had much interest in firing line hopscotch. But, much outside work, in fact most of it by far, is industrial not pipeline, in which case welders don't have 'helpers', to do their menial stuff, up five, down five, fix my lunch, get my board, (just teasin a little) .
As for craving sameness, in my career in the shops I've welded SMAW, FCAW Semi auto, machine (inner and dual shield), GTAW manual, semi auto and machine, hot wire cold wire and magnetic oscillation, GMAW semi and machine (spray and SC, and metal core), SAW semi and machine and twin wire, Flux Cored SAW semi auto and machine, and Plasma manual and machine, (oh and capacitor discharge too) on carbon steel, stainless steel (austenitics, martensitics, and ferritics), nickel steel, duplex, super austenitics, super martensitics, and super ferritics, nickel alloys, copper alloys, aluminum, Cu Ni, CrMo's, vanadium steels, microalloyed steels, HSLA's, Titanium, and Zirc, small bore (1/4"), large bore (108"), thin wall(sch 5) and heavy wall (6"). I've done work for power (fossil and nukes), petro chem, food processing, and about 50 other industries. I've done low temp, high temp, no temp, in position, out of position, any position, butt welds, fillet welds, o lets, sweep olets, vessel lets, overlays, corrosion and hardfacing. V grooves, U grooves, narrow grooves, no grooves, single and double, uphill, downhill, no hill.
I've been involved in evaluating welds through RT, UT, PT, and MT (inspection in power, especially nukes, takes a back seat to no industry).
And add to that with two positioners, where I started out in California we could easily achieve over 200 diameter inches of std wall pipe welds in a 8 hour day (thats 20 10" welds), and thats no bull. And thats root pass to cap. Not just one section as in pipelines. Weren't no bead hands or firing line in a fab shop. Oh, and we did our own repairs too.
I've lived in four states where welding has taken me, and visited at least 20 others based upon welding. One company I worked for owned about 10 fab shops.
So I'd say there's a strong argument for variety in the shops. I've been very fortunate and I owe it to shop experience.
To each his own.

By JTMcC

Date 04-02-2007 17:30

Well yes, you really were taking a bit of a shot. The derogetory references pretty much make that plain to those of us that read your post but if it makes you feel better saying you weren't then go ahead.

I don't have time to read your resume right now but I'm sure it's long and impressive. I don't have time either to post every material I've welded on, every process I've used, every type of jobsite I've stepped foot upon, every thickness of pipe I've joined, ect, ect. And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be of any interest to anyone but me so I'll skip that part.

Some people long to drive to the same place at the same time every day. Others consider that a prison sentence. That pretty much sums up my take. So take it or leave it.

JTMcC.

By js55

Date 04-02-2007 18:21

JT,
My original response was intended to balance Kix's rather blunt and yet humorous post. At least as I took it.
And my post was framed entirely within my own experience. You might wish to read it again to verify.
Which leads me to conclude that arguing that I am being derogatory toward my own experience is a strange approach to say the least.
Now my second post contained sarcasm to be sure. That one was in response to your post.
Perhaps we both stepped over the line.

By eagles1972fan (*)

Date 04-02-2007 19:02

I think the piont is it all puts food on the table!

By New-Welder1 (*)

Date 04-03-2007 01:44

thanks for the replys all, i,ll definatly do some research, and im in florida by the way, and some of you mentioned exactly the reasons i want to work in a shop, i,ll be on the ground, i,ll be able to have a life of my own, i wont be living in a motel room surviivng on fast food etc, I think the shop scene is definatly more my thing, i just got my first job a little over 2 months ago and its in a shop, and i love the shop atmosphere, though im not saying i might not give the field a try one day,

By JTMcC

Date 04-03-2007 01:55

"i'll be able to have a life of my own",

"living in a motel room surviving on fast food",

You have no idea, no clue, and you surely are better off in a shop.

JTMcC, happily working 1/2 the year (or so), piddling around the rest of the time, not eating fast food, and I have more of a life than most people can imagine.

By JTMcC

Date 04-03-2007 03:02

I know many people, hundreds, who make their living on the road. I'm not sure I know anyone who lives on fast food. Grown ups generally stay in nice RV's, in RV parks, or in extended stay type apartments. Both have refridgerators, stoves, microwaves, ect. Why would one live on fast food? I guess if a person was incapable of feeding himself at home, he would be equally incapable on the road. But the people I know are all competent enough to find a grocery store, shop there, and prepare meals. Plus they are able to locate nice restraunts be they Mexican, Chineese, Thai, or you name it.
The assumptions made about folks who travel as a part of their job (by people who evidently never have, or at least never done it correctly) are very innacurate and a plain missrepresentation.
My advise to anyone posting on any internet forum, on any topic is this - If you've never done it, don't comment. That will never take hold, but it's my little attempt to inject a little reality into cyberworld.

JTMcC.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 04-03-2007 17:25

Hey JT,
Your summation really says all that needs to be said. Been out on the road, in shops, worked union & non-union, worked the 12hr/7day beast, and the rewards were all so satisfying. Every job I was on, there came the time I knew it was time to "move on". That scourge of curiosity of "around the bend" never ceased, and the education, wisdom and knowledge is priceless. I never looked back, 2nd guessed, or lost the positive mindset that you can fulfill any dream.....only ourselves hold us back.

I'm "old school", at 63, and our genre grew with unquestionable work ethics, integrity and honor....always gave 8 hrs work for 8 hrs pay, accepted the good with the bad, and did our best for that day. Self-sufficiency is a lost art with the last 2 generations it seems, along with many other facets of adulthood and responsibilities. We can only try to instill these ethics and values to the youngsters coming into this arena and hope they listen to the wisdom presented to them and the benefits of avoiding the pitfalls and traps that will eventually arise. I do agree that if you've never done it...don't badmouth it. Hearsay is simply BS that has no validity if one hasn't tasted the fruit of experience.

BTW, JT, to me, anyone under 50 is a youngster..... :>))) Denny

By RonG

Date 04-03-2007 20:13

Hip, hip! Denny spoken like a true old f*#rt. Must be terrible to be that old.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-03-2007 20:23

So old that he farts mummy dust....LOL

By JTMcC

Date 04-03-2007 22:40

Well Denny that makes me a youngster then ; )

Over the years I've known some outstanding individuals who worked in one place, doing the same thing, for their entire career. Truly good men and women. My Father in law drove to the same plant every working day for 42 years! He loved his work, raised 6 kids in a good manner, and in retirement works part time teaching apprentices for the same plant. An honest hard working and content man. If I stay in one place for 42 days I'm looking to move on, 42 years would kill me, different streaks for different freaks.

It takes all kinds is what I say, and I don't feel the need to downgrade a hard working honest man, who decides that for him a solid steady job, inside a shop is the best way to go. It puzzles me when others think it makes their choices in life appear "better" by putting down alternative choices (that work very well for some).

I also have known some very good, honest, hardworking men and women, who value their family greatly that have worked all around the world.

It's your life man, live it the best you can and don't badmouth people who choose a different path than you.

JTMcC.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-03-2007 23:13

Denny,

My oldest student this term is 57, former professonal figher... The dude is amazing. If he was not such a nice guy the others would be totally terrified of him. (he could flip any of us like a cheese omlette) Man I love having grown up example setters in our groups.

By aevald

Date 04-04-2007 00:13

Hello Lawrence, there is a lot to be said for age and experience showing the younger folks that they still have a willingness to learn and be taught. As you said, a peer for the other students, even if that peer could possibly be their grandfather, is a huge benefit and can add so much more to an educational experience. The diverse nature of the students at my school can certainly add a lot to the learning experience of the group as a whole. It also keeps my job from being dull. Sorry to get off the thread here folks, Lawrence's post struck a point I felt the need to respond to.

By downhandonly (***)

Date 04-04-2007 00:25

JTMcC I bet the other pipeliners on here want your autograph! I'm still laughing from your posts to js55. lol

p.s. I worked all winter now I'm taking some time off...jeez lifes tough on the road.