5P+ in the oven.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-30-2007 19:32

Better late than never

Here is text from Lincolns own electrode handling guide
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c210.pdf

5P and 5P+ are not to be stored in an oven and when they become wet they are not to be reconditioned in an oven.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 04-30-2007 19:36

I agree with Lawrence. 5P or 6010 in the oven is a no-no. Feel fortunate you don't have to work with the uninformed who should at some point find his/her own ignorance face-to-face with fact..... you're right, life is too short... you were correct, the inspector was wrong.

By 803056

Date 04-30-2007 19:43 Edited 04-30-2007 19:46

Some individuals may get a hair across their aXX when I say this, but I would have asked for the inspector's credentials. I would hope that inspector was not a CWI. If he was, shame on him. He should know better.

As a welder, you need to know what is right the right way and what is the wrong way to handle welding electrodes. I suggest you purchase a copy of the appropriate filler metal specifications (A5.1 or A5.5 for carbon steel SMAW electrodes) to be better armed should something like this happen in the future (and it will). The recommended storage conditions are listed for the various electrode covering types in the specifications. They may well differ from the requirements of the applicable welding standard, i.e., AWS D1.1, NAVSEA TP1688, etc.

Many covered electrodes used to weld carbon steel pipe are one of three types, the flux is either cellulose based, rutile based, or limestone based. Only the low hydrogen limestone base flux coverings need to be stored at elevated tempoeratures to exclude moisture from the flux. Normal storage temperature for the low hydrogen type electrodes (limestone based flux) is around 250 degrees F (AWS D1.1). Low hydrorgen electrodes that have been exposed to the atmospheric conditions for periods of time in excess of the applicable welding standard may have to be baked at temperatures on the order of 800 degrees F to "recondition" them. Some welding standards require the high strength covered electrodes to be conditioned at 600 to 800 degrees before being placed into the holding ovens (at 250 degrees).

Other than low hydrogen electrodes (low hydrogen electrodes for use with SMAW end with the numbers 5, 6, and 8), SMAW electrodes do not need to be stored at elevated temperatures. The cellulose and rutile based fluxes require a certain amount of moisture to "bond" to the wire core. High temperature may cause those fluxes to crack and separate from the core wire.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say you should dip the electrodes in water to recondition either the cellulose or rutile fluxes. I may consider purchasing new electrodes if they are not operating properly. Cut outs are always more expensive than welding rod. What do you think Henry?

Best regards - Al

By makeithot (***)

Date 04-30-2007 20:02

I have never tried dipping them in water but was told it was a solution to excessive finger naling. Thanks for the replies. I do have a number of rod manuals and not one of them says you should put 6010 or 5p+ in the oven. I did for a brief minute think I might have been wrong but as it turns out that was my only mistake. Next time out tough I will be asking for papers. This is the only time in my career thought that I have dealt with an inspector with this kind of attiutude mostly I have found them to be an invaluable source of information.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-30-2007 22:21

I concurr with you Al!
I would only add that it really befuddles me to know that this individual did not base his argument on facts... In other words, The contractors that ended up making the decision to fire "Makeithot" based on the hearsay of one individual - an opinion without any facts to back it up, was reactionary to say the least!!! ;(

Btw, I like your analogy of visiting the Doctor's office and observing the plaque hanging on the wall ;)
You're also correct about the world being a great place and that only certain individuals make it difficult at times as a result of their ignorance!

I'm hoping that if the electrode manufacturers can come up with an economical method of incorporating Aluminum (oxide?) powder in a similar manner or something the achieves the same results to the flux so that the need for keeping certain (Low-Hydrogen) electrodes in an electric "dry-rod" oven(s) will become a thing of the past... Just think of the savings in the electrical costs! I know they'll be small in comparison but, every little bit helps when it comes to the bottom line.

I do believe that if the costs for doing so are are miniscule when compared to the long term costs of maintaining the current "mix" of Low hydrogen electrode flux coating "recipe blends" currently in the market dry, the end users will welcome the improvement and it's associated extra costs.

Respectfully,
Henry

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-30-2007 19:54 Edited 04-30-2007 19:57

Hey "Makeithot"!
Now that you've got the ammo err - evidence to back up your claim, send it to the contractor just to let them know what kind of inspector they listened to instead of your experience!!!

I would do it as a matter of pride because getting fired from a job when you know you were correct but did'nt have the proof to back it up needs to be justified in this and only in this manner...
So my advice to you is not to go throwing a big bruhaha to these contractors because you'll only give them more justification for not keeping you on the job...

Just let them know by showing them the facts that they could've had the right person to do the work instead of some inspector dictating something that simply is'nt true and will end up costing them more money in the long run in a very polite manner!!! They'll get the message and you'll keep your Pride & Honor!!!

Finally, If they want to hire you back, make darn sure that you let them know that it's going to cost them extra now!!! ;) Btw, Larry's fees are reasonable so do'nt forget to take care of him if you get more work from these folks!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By makeithot (***)

Date 04-30-2007 20:11

By all means I will be forwarding said info for their records , as you have stated it is a matter of pride. I do not mind being wrong and am the the first to admit my mistakes but when told you are wrong when you are right is altogether an other issue.

By 803056

Date 04-30-2007 20:29

The world is a great place; it's the people that make life difficult.

Just remember inspectors are human, and just like every profession, some inspectors are more knowledgeable than others.

I'm sure you've looked at the plaque on the wall when you visit your family doctor. It says where he attended medical school and that he's recognized as meeting the requirements to practice medicine, but it doesn't tell you if he was in the top 10% or the bottom 10% of his graduating class.

You may have encountered an inspector that is a member of the 10% club, and I'm not talking about one of the upper 10%.

Best of luck - Al

By JTMcC

Date 04-30-2007 22:04

We've run into that situation several times over the years and my usual reply is "can I see that in writing?", that works with a lot of odd requirements people sometimes try to put upon us. That usually resolves the matter quietly. But like you said, some will get pretty bowed up over these things.

When you get sideways with inspection you are many times doomed. Right, wrong or indifferent. Some people are just like that be they inspectors, x-ray hands, welder foremen, ect. It's that innescapable human element.

JTMcC.

By darren

Date 04-30-2007 22:13

reveal the info to the contractor and see what his response is, and ask if you would rather have an informed welder or a misguided inspector. you've already lost the job it really can't hurt in fact your name has been sullied and you have the right to reclaim your reputation, at least
darren
jtmcc
is right on like always life isn't fair, life is life. and it speaks volumes that in 28+ years you have not been fired more often when you have ran into these types of personalities, because they are out there and it is really all we can do is not try not to be one ourselves.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-30-2007 23:44

I would let the company the inspector is working for know about this. Depending on what you are welding on the result of this guys requirement could cause a failure of the weld. This could result in loss of $$$ and lives. I would be concerned if the contractor went along with this and did not throw a shoe about this. Somebody is sniffin somebody's britches and they need changin!

By ZCat

Date 05-01-2007 03:00 Edited 05-01-2007 03:02

Sometimes an inspector needs an @ss whuppin'. This was one of those times. I've been on a job like that before, inspector said 5P had to be in the oven.

We used to get a rag wet and moisten the rods with that. It helped some, but once you bake those rods they will never weld right again.

The best way I've seen 5P stored was in a big wooden box with a light fixture in there.

By reddoggoose (**)

Date 05-01-2007 16:18

6010 is a cellulostic electrode. Cellulostic electrodes acutually have a small amount of moisture in the coating to help bind the flux. This moisture is what gives these rods their deep penetrating characteristics. When put in an oven this moisture is baked out of the flux and the arc becomes "soft". This is why cellulostic rods are to be kept dry but cool. Even exposure to heat from sitting in a toolbox in a hot evironment can cause this to happen. It's the low hydrogen rods that need to be kept in an oven. Sounds like this inspector is a product of the ignorance that seems to plague our trade.

By rebekah (**)

Date 05-01-2007 20:55

Hey

I was about to post a question about this. We are looking at portable road ovens to do an outside job and to hear that their is a rod 5P and 5P+ 6010 rod that doesnt need to be stored in a oven might save us some money. If the enginner is alright with the difference in strength, then the 5P rods would be the way to go. I was reading that they are great for vert and OH, but they can still be used for flat, right?

Thanks

By new tito (***)

Date 05-01-2007 21:04

6010 is an all position rod.

By aevald

Date 05-01-2007 22:32

Hello rebekah, keep in mind that if you are doing any structural welding that has any code requirement you will have to use a 70XX electrode. Some applications where there is a lot of dirt, rust, grease, oil, paint, and other types of environmental extras that are not readily removable will be much better served by using the E6010 electrode, however, if the application falls under a structural code of any sort you will likely be required to use E7018 or another 70 series electrode.
Some industrial applications will not require the 70 series rule, but they are becoming few and far between anymore. Some food for thought. Regards, aevald

By JTMcC

Date 05-02-2007 01:03

7010 and 8010 electrodes are in common use.

We've made untold number of structural welds, pipe pile splices, open butt v welds, with 7010 and 8010 electrodes. These met or exceeded all requirements in the spec's and contract doc's. Not your typical structural weld, but we're pipe welders so it's really our home territory.

JTMcC.

table 3.1 allows 60xx consumables for group 1 materials, doesn't it?

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-02-2007 10:29

Yes, Table 3.1 shows a 60XX electrode as a prequalified filler for Group I materials.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-02-2007 10:26

Just don't overlook any lo-hy requirements or the requirement for a 70XX series electrode that might be stated in the customer's specs.

By rebekah (**)

Date 05-02-2007 14:09

Hey

This is one of those situations where I am the customer, at least the customer is looking to me for all the answers. He wants to weld this frame to code, but doesn't know what that means, except that I need to be certified, and is leaving it to me to discover the other bits of information that are relevant.
D1.1 seems to say that I can use 60XX electrodes to weld Group 1, and what I am welding is A36 and some A500. So as to the previous posts, is 70XX and 80XX the most commonly used or the requirement? Because I am confused now. Don't worry, it's a pretty normal state for me.
Thanks

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-02-2007 17:04

Here is something else to consider...When using Table 3.1 be aware that the thickness of A36 governs which Group it falls into and that the preheat requirements are different between the Groups as shown in Table 3.2.

ie.
A36 up to and including 3/4" thick = Group I
A36 greater than 3/4" thick = Group II

By js55

Date 05-02-2007 17:41

rebekah,
I have never been confused. Ever. Well sometimes. Most times. Well maybe more than I thought. Or less. Seldom. I don't know. I've forgotten. When I figure it out I'll let you know.

By JTMcC

Date 05-02-2007 17:50

Right, LoHi is often called out, 70XX filler is often called out on drawings, and D1.1 compliance is often thrown in so there are quite a few variables that can limit your filler choice but there are still structural applications where the cellulose rods are used. Not mainstream structural work of course.
We have spliced hundreds of big bore pipe cans (with the cans in the horizontal position) for pile jobs with 5P+ and 70+, welded downhill just like cross country piping and that combination will beat the mid to lower grades of pipe every time. And I've seen I don't know how much pipe falsework spliced in the same fashion. Your typical structurally geared guys would use chill rings and LoHi (uphill of course) but we can crank those babies out at a really fast clip using our methods.
The kicker being that the spec's and contract document planets have to all be in alignment, and not prohibit any of those factors (cellulose consumables, downward progression, open butt v, ect.)
And of course there are areas where the only weld spec is "it has to work".
I'm not recomending anyone else do it this way. And we are pretty well geared toward high production downhill pipe or we probably wouldn't ever do it this way either. But in some circumstances it works well.

JTMcC.

By hogan

Date 05-02-2007 18:20

decking is the only other thing that is typically welded with 6010 for structural.

By JTMcC

Date 05-02-2007 19:04

All of the deck I've been around for years was welded with 6022. Where are they using 6010?

The only reason I know this is they typically throw stubs all over the place.

JTMcC.

By aevald

Date 05-02-2007 19:29

Hello JTMcC, I also welded down a great deal of decking with the E6022 rod. Of the structural steels that I have welded that was the only time that a 60 series electrode was used. When comparing the E6010 to the E6022 for deck welding, the 6022 appeared to have less puddle blow-out, a softer and more forgiving arc, it was easier to tie the beam to the decking without leaving burn-outs, and dealt with the zinc much better. Just my personal opinion. Regards, Allan

By hogan

Date 05-02-2007 21:07

my mistake. i was trying to say that decking is welded with 60xx

By CWI555

Date 05-02-2007 02:43

As an inspector, I would have to agree. I spent a lot of time and money learning how to weld, even though I don't do it for a living. It was done so that I would not be ignorant, unfortunately There are some inspectors who wouldn't know the proper methodology for welding if you stuck the ground up their @ss and went uphand.

This particular case; is case in point for why feel every weld inspector should have taken weld classes.

As Jttmc has pointed out, it's not the exclusive realm of the inspector to be an ignorant ass. The managment of the project in question should have known better than to buy that arguement from the 'inspector'. If your going to provide GC services for construction of any major steel project, the company should at least know what the material characteristics are that they are using. Based on the story as presented, they have shown as much if not more ignorance than the inspector.