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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Where Have All The Welders Gone
- - By wrightgt Date 05-02-2007 11:51
Saw this article in the Wall Street Journal Aug 15th 2006 "We need welders like a starving person needs food". Would like to hear your opinion on this and why do you think it has come to this situation. The company I work for has had the same problem recruiting suitable welders. I work for a company in the United Kingdom. 
Parent - - By downhandonly (***) Date 05-02-2007 13:55
Maybe if the companies doing the complaining paid more than McDonalds they would get more skilled tradespeople. check this out http://www.roadtechs.com/const/wwwboard/getpost.php?rec_nbr=26817 I won't even work by hand for that kind of money. I gotta go check my blood pressure. grrrrrrrrr
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-02-2007 14:22
Hey downhandonly!

I have discussed the WJ article with some German colleagues and have told them what the current situation in the United States appears to be and... what they could earn on money in the USA.

Believe me, many of them would have been willing to start immediately a new life in the United States of America where the welders were "merchandized as Gold".

But now when I read what you have posted, it does not really agree to the Wall Street Journal's information...

And it probably doesn't match with the predication: "The people who weld the future!"

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By cmays (***) Date 05-04-2007 02:46
Hey Downhand,

The scary thing is that there are all kinds of hacks aroung that area that will go work for that rate because they
1. just threw a machine and some tools in the back of a truck and call them selves welders
2. they have all equipment and their truck financed for a lifetime
3. dont pay their taxes
And finally these comapanies let them work without the crudentials such as certs and proper insurance that you and I wouldnt think twice about showing up on a job without. I dont know how bad it is up where you are at but down here these guys are a dime a dozen. And then they cry about my rates to come out and repair some of the trash these idiots put down in the first place. Its makes more work for me so Im not gripping about that but when one of them pulls up next to my rig (all paid for)with their cracker box in the back of thier half ton and they call them selvse welders.......maybe its just me gripping but I put in alot practice and time and money to get where I am today(and by no means am I through learning either). Its just frustrating that these companies let junk go into the ground and they have no idea what profesional work is worth
Parent - - By downhandonly (***) Date 05-04-2007 04:33
You totally took the words out of my mouth. OH my blood pressure is rising again... anyway MY truck is NOT a toyota its a 2006 Dodge 1 ton 4X4 cummins with a deck and my wife drives a Ford!The last time i checked my truck and welder are not SOLAR powered and my time is not FREE! If someone wants to donate their services to a company that's their own decision (you get what you pay for, if you pay crap you get crap.) I went to renew my smallbore and heavywall pipe tickets today and they weren't free either.  Later
Parent - By cmays (***) Date 05-04-2007 20:45
Amen buddy!!!
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-08-2007 21:27
You guys heard me and another guy go round and round over this one before. I'm trying to think of the name.....must not have been important. Lately, most of my business has been repairing someone elses "repair"!

I think they ought to drive them all off a cliff, like lemmings.......
Parent - By cmays (***) Date 05-09-2007 19:10
LOL!!!
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-02-2007 14:27
The problem is certainly not limited to the USA, it is worldwide.  Most of the talent is reaching retirement age and very few of the younger folks coming out of our schools today are ever educated regarding the value of learning a trade; they all have "higher education" pushed down their throats by society and employers themselves.

In addition to that, the talent that is out there have attitudes such as the person posting the roadtechs advertizement so this adds to CEO's greed by pushing the workforce off to developing nations like China or others who would be deleriously happy to work for the equivalent of $22 USD per hour... I understand we're all in it for the money but if the person posting wouldn't work for $22/hour and $75PD then there are "others" who will...

Long story short, it is mainly society failing to see the value of talent vs. education, followed by greed of the people at the top....
Parent - By norcalwelder (**) Date 05-02-2007 14:57
Well It seems to me that the push in schools is to get a "soft" job instead of a "fun" job such as welding or other trades.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 05-02-2007 15:01
Well, why should anyone get paid what they do?  Why does management make more money then their welders?  Why is gold and helium worth as much as it is right now?  With the demand for welders getting to be the way it is they're going to be worth more money as well no matter what they're skill level or the training they've had.  Why do teachers get paid what they do and they're the ones that tought the guys that make the big money what they know.
    Some of the welding that is done out in the field requires so much skill, knowledge and experience by the welder himself that i feel they should be getting paid right up with what engineers and management make and that is not allways the case.  Don't get me wrong there is some welding that is done in places that i could teach my mom to do in 5 minutes.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-02-2007 15:17
norcalwelder, you are right on the money.  kix, you make very good points, the thing is (and I know this is hard to grapple with) we can also push our work away by having attitudes which may be perceived as arrogant... look at the American automakers, now Toyota is number 1... why?  It could have something to do with the costs of union labor, it could have something to do with Toyota building a better vehicle... it could have happened for many reasons but at the end of the day who's left holding the bag?  We are, as Americans, we've made our own destiny.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-02-2007 15:28
Jon,

precious evaluation...

In Germany - on the level of the German Welding Society - we are also talking about capturing young people for the fascination of welding.

I guess a main reason is the kind of negative association between what the young people think about what welding is (dirty, unhealthy,...) and the lack of knowledge of what kinds of perspectives "welding" can open everyone who is willing to open himself for welding.

Currently I guess every national welding institution (and as far as I know also the IIW?)  is searching hardly for finding ways to improve the "image" of welding and some activities have already been agreed.

For me personally its great to see how professional the American Welding Society is acting here. This is truly incomparable to what happens in Germany - o.k. we are only a very small country, but nevertheless.

A simple but very effective proof is (for me) - once again - the AWS Forum. Here one can see, welding is much more than "sparking and spattering". And the people can see how many great colleagues have the same passion for welding as themselves.

I agree 100% with you, it is surely a worldwide problem and there are surely general social reasons with special regard to "work" at all.

Today it seems to me that most of the young people think, it is sufficient to converse smartly in "Coffee & Cake-Meetings" and anyone else will be found for doing the job afterwards. It' s probably not the fault of the young people but rather the suggestion they are treated to and living with day by day, by watching smart and "clean" people on TV and in multi-coloured journals, appearing to earn lots of money only by looking good.

By the way, I have read a pretty fine evaluation just a few days ago.

Here young people have been asked on what their understanding of "Progress" is.

Different possibilities were proposed as answers.

I can't remember the detailed analysis, but what I remember very well, only 6% (!) have ticked off "Endeavour"...

Kind regards,
Stephan

Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-02-2007 16:06
Speaking of images of welding....many pictures you see are of someone welding with a huge shower of sparks and smoke..... to make it a dramatic picture, I suppose, but I would shudder to think that my welders are welding with sparks and spatter flying way up above their heads like these pictures show. Talk about a process that is out of control!!! I like to see virtually no spatter and a welder with his machine set so that the majority of the filler is actually being used as filler rather than flying into the air being wasted....
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-02-2007 16:48
John!

Can't be expressed better than you did!

Excellent!

My best regards to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-02-2007 17:49
Hello everyone, this thread could take on many different forms as I see it. I read norcalwelders post with interest as I am one of those educators that could make a better living in the "regular" working world. I teach because I have the gratification of seeing, working with, and influencing developing welders and observing the life changing evolutions in these younger and older individuals. Teaching also gives me many choices for how to spend my off-time when I'm not teaching, I have four kids and have been able to be a part of many things in their lives that I couldn't have otherwise shared with them on a more demanding schedule that is required in most trade related employment. Thus I have no regrets in choosing education as my primary choice for employment.
     Attracting individuals to choose to be welding educators is becoming exceedingly difficult as things like wages, benefits, and other driving forces make the choice between education and trades tougher as the money and benefit gap becomes greater and greater between the two. Personally, I wrestle with the politics, budget shortfalls, educational system support (or lack of), wages and other issues, quite often as I access where I am at in my career and where I would like to go. Personal satisfaction still keeps me on track with staying with the teaching as my full-time choice. Along with the things I mentioned above are the attitudes of administrators at many of the educational institutions. They fail to see the expanding gap between what the industry has to offer and what educational institutions offer perspective instructors. The institution that I work at recently hired another instructor to partner with me as my old partner retired. This person had to take a 15K cut in pay and benefits in order to take the position at my school, I'm glad he decided to take the plunge and make the commitment. That's just a small example of the types of things that welding training institutions face. Sadly, the administrators and others that are responsible for setting these scales for pay and such, already think that they are offering too much for the jobs.
     Another train of thought here could go something like this. Most parents, myself and my wife included, would like to see our children do better in life than we have. To have more physical amenities, to be healthy, to work "smarter", to have more time to devote to family and the enjoyment of life, etc. So many times we buy into the saying "go to college, get an education" instead of saying I made a career out of being part of a trade and it has served me well and given me all the opportunities and other things that I could desire in life. Along similar lines here, many of the teachers, advisors, counselors and others that our kids have been exposed to in their earlier schooling paths are the same individuals who have been in school their entire lives and haven't held a job such as a trade job and have no idea of the benefits that can come from them. They have been in "education" and know nothing different from that mode. I could go on here but I'll give this portion a rest now.
     Even our governmental agencies have had a hand in the issue here. Labor and Industries has deemed many jobs as too dangerous for individuals who aren't eighteen years old yet. They have also put other restrictions on younger kids working in many environments for other reasons. In the area that I live in kids used to be able to pick berries and do other types of farm work, for the most part these practices have been discontinued due to governmental legislation. Discontinuing these types of things has caused losses in work ethic for these kids as far as I am concerned. I believe there are also less and less families where the parents have workshops or garages where kids can have a chance to become exposed to working with tools and doing other types of things that might spark their interest in looking to the trades for employment. Once again I could go on and on.
     Obviously if there was a way to change the general publics view on how the trades are perceived it would be much easier to entice and show individuals the many benefits that can be had. I guess the $64,000 dollar question is how to go about truly doing it. I believe it will boil down to a combination of industry, government, schools, and individuals, before we will actually see any great advancements. Done with the rant. Regards, everyone. Allan
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-03-2007 05:03
As Allen notes parents tend to encourage kids to go to college and persue white collar jobs, particularly the "smart" kids. Now one has to think this would lead to a lot of not so smart people working in the skilled trades, a lack of skilled trades persons, or both, and at some point this will become a problem. Upper manegment wages have risen greatly in the past 30 years compaired to trade wages which only makes this situation worse. The cleaver bean counters get rewarded for figuring out new ways to deprive everyone else.  On the blacksmithing site We have just gotten done with bashing MBA's who make short sited decisions to enhance the next quarters profits. When there is plenty of work to be done those who don't want to pay much will have troubble getting workers, at least legal ones. When things get slow and You have bills to pay and mouths to feed You might end up working for less than You want. 30 years ago I was a senior in a good high school VoTec machine shop program. I don't know what trades are still taught there, but I know there are not as many as there were.
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 05-02-2007 17:45 Edited 05-02-2007 17:50
Saddest part of the way our educational system works is that by pushing higher education down these poor kids throat, the ones that would love to be in a shop class, automotive, wood or metal, arent given any way to value or respect their abilities.  They are taught that if they cant pass tests and remember who was the second governor under the third Texas state constitution, they are idiots and second class.  So what do you think they do?  Drop out and get high or get a job.  But there isnt funding for alot of schools to provide trade based classes in highschool.  My husband, Principal Paul, is always struggling to get kids to stay at school, but when they drop out to work at the Auto body shop what can he offer them?  More classes about books written by dead white guys.

He had one student come in with a wire brush burn across his face (I guess he was really intently working!).  He told him what I do, work as a welder for a university, and the kid was so excited that there were jobs out there for kids that like to make sparks, noise and build stuff.  Maybe that one will stay in school--you have to have at least a high school education to work here.

Not much out there otherwise, in a town of 5,000, we lost 5 kids last year to accidents/suicides involving drugs and alcohol...

Stephan, was my perception of German vocational training skewed?  I went the Koblenz Handwerkskammer and was amazed at all the youths that went to that school full time, learning the ins and outs of welding, manual machining and CNC, automotive, and I dont know what else.  The school was stocked with state of the art equipment provided (from what I understood) by the industries that would benefit from having new workders coming out of school knowing how to work the laser cutting, laser welding, and laser engraving machines.  We went on tours to different factories and interned at some--I got Schauf in Remagn, a bicycle factory.  It seemed like a system that understood the importance of the workforce.  Maybe they were showing us the shiny side...but the other day, a local water jet company was showing off their new "Cutting Edge" laser cutting machine that no one else in the whole city had--it was a smaller model than the one the school had SEVEN years ago. 
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-03-2007 17:47
Hey Rebekah!

Very interesting aspects coming from you - surely and unfortunately a lot of truth in there...

Rebekah, I truly can't believe you have been in the Handwerkskammer Koblenz!

Then you should know this, please see the attached jpeg!

When I have been there in 1998 for holding a presentation, the welding-instructor showed us the "Manually-Laser" where I was allowed to weld this cube. I remember it was their little present to everyone who was interested in their fine equipment - just as you have mentioned it - and who ventured to burn his fingers on the cube been heated up by the "little" laser.

Yes, institutions just like the mentioned one are excellently equipped since they are financed by the regional chambers of handicrafts and those members - even the craftsman - put great worth on the education of their apprentices and successors. And they are able to provide a wide range of different trades to the people. Amongst others: Welding. The Handwerkskammer is - by the way - also admitted as a Welding-institution of the German Welding Society.

From my point of view the deterioration of the German Welding Education began when the European Community (bureaucrats) started to rework all the national valid standards. Then "Universal-Welders" (being able to weld just more than a horizontal fillet) having been educated very fundamentally and solid became "One-Way-Welders" just like the industry needed them. If a company had to manufacture components to be welded only in flat position the welders had to be educated only under meeting the requirement to be able to weld in flat position! At the same time the officials cut the financial resources for the welding- and continuing-education and this was just like a stab with a dagger for the people who wanted to be edcuacted privately in welding...

Rebekah, what should I say, it is truly unbelievable you have visited Axel Schauff (he was surely proud to present his company wasn't he?) who is a venerable partner for the company I work for. I have realized a very interesting project togehter with him at that time. He has done a big deal with a large German Automobilist to manufacture a part of their "Accessories-Series" - Aluminum bikes for people having the money to buy them...

We have used 4043-wire electrode 1.0 mm in diameter and an analogue controlled power-source on a small welding-robot. Great times...

Meanwhile Axel and his company have to fight a hard due to some facts having been mentioned by Jon in this thread. Aluminum bicycle frames coming from Vietnam and other countries having welders being true artists (as far as I have heard, sitting down on the street clamping the frame between their knees and GTA-welding better than any robot would be able to weld). These frames are being imported to Germany and just assembled here furthermore to selling them "c h e a p" ! Sad story...

But nonetheless I really hope that Axel and his guys will win the fight by manufacturing furthermore sophisticated and highest-grade quality bycicles. They would have deserved it!

My best regards,
Stephan
Attachment: Handwerkskammer_Koblenz_Manually_Laser_Cube.jpg (0B)
Parent - By rebekah (**) Date 05-10-2007 15:41
Stephan

They were doing the same thing in 2000 when I was there.  I have a set of "cubes" as you call them.  For the rest of you, they are dice cut on a laser cutting machine and the folded at the score lines.  The little laser was in a small box with glove ports and a viewing thing that looked like a double lensed microscope with a sight-cross hares-target thing where, when you pushed the pedal the laser would shoot.  You manipulated the cube in your hands while triggering the laser and it was the sweetest little weld!  They also had a laser engraver which I am sure was how Stephan's name got on the dice.  Such fun!

I dont remember meeting Axel, but the company offered me a job there.  I worked with a robotic welding machine inspecting and repairing the welds that it made on a frame for the post office system, I think it was called a Luna. 

It was an amazing experience all around.

Too bad that industries tend to lower standards in so many aspects of life to meet their requirements with no regard to the future.  Environmental quality, nutrional quality, education standards, everything seems to bow to the force of the industry.  It is so sad.

Rebekah
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-03-2007 10:45
It's not all about money for all of us.  I started welding in the 9th grade, made a decent hobby out of it.  When the time came for me to get my stuff in one sock and make my own way in the world, I was lost; I wandered into a Navy recruiter's office, tested, he asked me what i wanted to do.  I said I wanted to weld.  So half a million miles and 20 years later, here I am again.  I am either lucky enough (more likely) or good enough (less likely) to have landed a job as management, in the QA realm.  The money is enough for me.  Sure, I could be out on rigs pulling down so much per inch and per hour, with per diem in the mix.  But after 20 years I like the idea of settling down.  As far as the job goes, it's immensely satisfying to see positive results; better weld quality (most of our guys are level 1), tighter fit ups, less rework.  As far as the rest of life, it's payment enough for me to come home every night, mow my lawn, work in the garage, or what have you.  The going rates for skilled welders, at least in the SATX area, is not great.  Unless you're dang lucky, you'll be pulling down somewhere in the neighborhood of 17-20 for code work here.  Non-code, 12-15.  maybe more, if your bargaining skills are good.  There's more than one company in town whose idea of good pay for skilled labor is pretty much nothing.  We have a hell of a time keeping guys, because they don't want to stick it out, don't want to learn anything new (hell we OFFER FREE training!) and the guys jump ship for a 50 cent raise across town.  How do you fight against that?  I think welding is a trade that you either love or don't want anything to do with it.  People who just want to try it, because "hey I saw them doing that on the history channel, looks like an easy buck" are just wasting our time.  They apply, they test, they fail, we try to train them, they figure out this is too much like work, and they bail.  Sad.

Okay, off my soapbox!
Parent - By drifter57 (**) Date 05-03-2007 12:35
As a person follows this post it is really kind of interesting. Up here in the uppermidwest we have access to trade school welders plus we do a lot of in house training for welders. We currently have about 75 welders doing code work. Probably 60% of these were trained in house. They have " bid " their way into welding from ou clean up or sandblasting dept. Up here with wages from $14 - $17we have no problems finding people who want to train for welding. Now I understand in some areas that is chicken feed money but up here those wages plus 401K and full insurance and the low cost of living a person can live pretty damn nice. Now granted it takes time to train a welder to be a welder not just a trigger puller, but once traind the company loyalty make it worth the time. We do not have a big turnover of people.Now also it makes a difference because we do not have a lot of the Hi tech type jobs ther is a lot of manufacturing jobs up here so all of the trade schools have a good turn out of kids going to them it really doesnt matter for what, electrians, welders, construction whatever if you love to work with your hands and want to work you will find a good job.
Parent - - By Local14 (*) Date 05-06-2007 01:58
Jon,

FINALLY!!! Someone who understands that our school systems NEED TO CHANGE!!!! It's getting bad. They've taken art AND physical education from my school (a change in effect next year) AND they're instituting a new rule that if test scores are low, you get an EXTRA math, science or reading class but you only get an elective credit for it. No onever ever says,"hey go get your hands dirty and make something." or "Hey , go learn a trade, you won't have to work yourself to the grave to make a good living and you don't have to start in Micky D's for 8.50 an hour." And then everyone complains.."Oh, we don't have enough welders, we don't have an qaulified people..." At our Ironworkers Union here in Washington, the demand for apprentices is going up but they just can't get any. It's really sad!!
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 05-06-2007 20:32
Hello again local14, I venture to say by the post of yours that I just read that you are a Washington state resident. I am also going to guess that you are possibly located in the northwestern corner of the state, I reside in the southwestern corner. The work is definitely going gang busters in a lot of different sectors and you're also right when you say that it is odd that not many are taking advantage of this. I continue to hope that our population will wake up and get with it in regards to securing a prosperous future through involvement in the trades. I do see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel that I haven't seen in a while, there are more younger folks that are inquiring and making the effort to go into a trade as of late. I believe it's the word of mouth scenario where they have friends that have made the plunge and they see their successes and want an opportunity to join them. I keep my fingers crossed. Keep yourself focused and enjoy the journey. Regards, Allan
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 05-15-2007 03:39
I think it's more the greed at the top, which trickles down. Society comes into it when they don't support the local craftsman, but rather let their representatives sell their jobs across the ocean to china.

The quality of work that comes out of China is proof of the old saying "If you pay peanuts, all you'll get is monkeys".
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 05-07-2007 00:03
I must be testing these jokers. I have the contractors and the company people on me because of the welder failure rate. Lot's of welders, few weldors. QC and field people love me though because when they go out, they can weld.
Parent - By Odie (*) Date 05-13-2007 01:39
Amen to that im in Texas city the big Boom!!! Town..The scale around here is at about $26hr to $32hr for Combo Pipe Welders..Combo rigs are at $30 on the arm an $13 on the truck! really hot around here...Noticed some big bore pipeline work to..
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-04-2007 13:55
Hey Gareth!

May I kindly ask, because you was the one who started the thread, what is your personal opinion on what has been discussed up to now, or why it has come to the current situation (particularly in the UK)?

Would be interesting to find out what you're thinking...

Best,
Stephan
Parent - - By tsalagi (*) Date 05-05-2007 10:39
i'm with stephan, what are you thinking.

also, most of us are in the good ol' U.S.A. and tend to do the ever so common thing and that is forget that there is a whole big world out there. what is the situation in other countries like china, australia, europe, ect.? i know that all of the bigger countries push higher education because they are in a race to have the best engeneers and scientists, but what's up with the stuff we don't read about?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 05-05-2007 17:51
In this great race to acquire and educate the best engineers and scientist, the peoples of the world in general are forgetting history. History forgotten, is a history that will be repeated. While I agree that education should not be under valued, the educated tend to overlook many points of ingenuity in deference to "accepted practices". There are many root technologies that exist today, because someone dreamed and no one told them it couldn't be done, or they ignored the naysayers. The Wright brothers were told it couldn't be done, yet they did it and they were essentially bicycle mechanics to begin with. History throughout the world is riddled with inventions by the "uneducated, and the ill educated" that we today just take for granted.
to quote Einstein "the spirit of learning and creative thought are lost in strict rote learning" In reference his time at Luitpold Gymnasium. He later applied to Swiss federal institute of technology, but failed his entrance exam the first go round. He may have been problematic in school, but not to many people these days don't consider him to have been one the brightest minds of the last century.

From a personal perspective, I've been inspecting for near 22 years, and I can distinctly recall several incidence of "educated idiots", and their subsequent failures because their "numbers lied to them". A couple of these incidences were at the cost of some lives. The welders/craft told them, the inspectors told them, yet our voices went unheard for lack of a piece of paper, and people died.

Those two are on the extreme side, but there are many lesser examples I've witnessed in my life time.

Modern business emphasises education, but who's going to know more about designing a weld joint; the welder who's been doing it for 30 years, or the engineer who's ink isn't dry yet on the degree?
Education is great, and a  necessary part of the world, but lets not educate ourselves into ignorance marginalizing the Einstein's and Wright brothers among us.
Parent - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 05-10-2007 06:00
Like many members on this forum I got a bunch of weld certs.  I've also worked hard and have a couple of college degrees. One in mechanical engineering and one in inspection.  In the simplest of observations, successful weld certification testing proved that at that moment, I had been proven capable of performing weldments to a particular standard whatever the standard I was certifying to happened to be.  However, the receipt of both of those college degrees did not prove me to be capable to perform either engineering or inspection work to any standard.  They only acknowledged some level of proficiency in educational performance.   Hmmm!  If I had truly had a "Higher  Education", then would I not be able to perform engineering or inspection to a standard of performance right out of school.  The real answer is no, I did not recieve the common held belief of the  benefit of  "Higher Education".  All I got for my efforts was the possibility to take what it was that I learned and make it "Work" for me in the form of an opportunity made.  Hmm!  I had to work as does everyone else to make something for myself .  In no way different then every person on this forum, who by virtue of a desire to self develop a skill, has put forth effort (work) to make it an opportunity for them.  Ironically, it seems in this post that we have re-discovered what we knew all along. That is that those expounding about claims to possess a "Higher Education" are not really as prepared for the start of their life's work as those whom, like a welder, must pass a certification of proficiency examination prior to recieving a nickel for their efforts.  I could have easily taken easy class loads and just shown up at school, completed the required credits and got a degree that for all the world looked and was worth the same as any other person like subject degree.  That degree obtained in that fashion would generally define me as having a "Higher Education" when I was in reality little beyond lazy and certainly unable to perform meaningful work worthy of just compensation.  I sure can't operate like that to pass a weld cert even today.   I am not knocking the system of education here.  But rather wishing to point out that at any given moment a person educated (mostly through the efforts of self development) as welder, certified to a standard, is certainly by demonstration in performance to be more  "Highly Educated" than someone whom immediately after recieving an engineering degree, cannot perform engineering work to a comparable standard.   Certainly some hard evaluation of the product of "Higher Education" as to usefulness seems necessary.
XPERTFAB
Parent - - By wrightgt Date 05-09-2007 14:25
Hello Stephan.
Have read all the threads and I think all the opinions expressed wages, image, education and today's society are playing a part in why, not just welding but trades in general are not attracting enough youngsters. My personnal opinion is that the wrong people are in places of decision making  and until we go back to the grass roots of the educational system where youngsters can try out hands on i.e. metalwork, woodwork along with all the new technology it is not going to get better. The other problem is that if there was suddenly a change in intrerest in trades where would they go because as we know it's a very competitive world now and companies can't or won't invest in young people i.e. apprenticeships so the governments have their part to play and take some if not most of the blame. The company I work for has experianced the lack of good tradesmen welders and has started the apprenticeship scheme again. Obviously the problem here is not on the scale as in the US. Would love to have had the opportunity to work in your country.
Regards
Gareth
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-11-2007 09:20
Hello Gareth!

Thanks for the reply and the insight into your personal estimation of the tricky reasons being responsible for the current situation - which appears to be a more or less global one.

I truly hope that the measures, been already, and will be performed in the future for improving the circumstances may grip...

Lots of interesting posts - once more!

Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By BevelBreakdown Date 05-06-2007 02:58 Edited 05-06-2007 03:03
Hey ya'll I'm a 17 year old high school senior and i've took welding for two years now. And reading this thread in a way pisses me off 'cause i go into the shop at 6:45 in the morning and leave at about 9:30 looking dirty as hell and every damn body else (cept for my fellow classmates) looks down their nose at me 'cause i'm covered in grinding dust or covered in black smudges from head to toe and most other people think their shooting for the stars with their 4 year college degrees and all that other crap. Hell I'm not even talented I mean i spent a day or so beveling some pipe with a grinder for a 6g test(mind you its something i volunteered to do) welded on it for five minutes and  I'm like "ah shit...its ruined". but with my skill level aside i enjoy striking an arc and doing a good job, it just satisfies me to see myself pull a good weld no matter the process. and i do plan to go to my local community college to take addition tig plate/pipe classes as well as get my own rig so i can practice. 'cause i aint in this for just the money i want to make something of myself.

                                                                                       with regards to the future
                                                                                                                           -jake
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-06-2007 10:06
jake and local14, just keep in mind school only lasts for so many years, then you either graduate or you don't.  A skill is something you can take with you for a lifetime... I don't know how much I've forgotten from my "formal" education but I'm sure its a high percentage of what I learned, lol!

The both of you have a very, very high respect among virtually every single forum member here, we all recognize you are the next generation who will lead this country and our chosen field.  While I certainly wouldn't downplay the advantages of having a sheepskin, some of the brightest and most talented people I've known did not have a degree but could dance all around many who did....

There are enough sources in our field that you can continue education yourself for a lifetime (literally) and never get bored from learning... I haven't.  After 33 years, I simply know how little I know about our field, its really pretty exciting.

Local14, by the way I began my career as a Boilermaker apprentice in Seattle, at the Shipyards... it has taken me great places because I have pursued a lifetime of being more educated in our chosen field... incidentally, I am also none-degreed...
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 05-07-2007 20:28
One of the problems that I see apart from the fact that their are not enough kids wanting to go into the trades. Is a lack of work ethic in genral, time and again I have hired some kid to start as a helper and after a couple of early starts you cannot get them to show up on time or but in a full day. I unfortuneatly have a zero tolerance for this type of attitude. If a person can get by that then the next  thing they want is top wages for zero skill level, where does that come from. I speak for myself I guess but I have no problem with paying a good rate if the work produced warrents it . But in genral if you start as an apprentice you should expect to be payed as an apprentice and journeyman rate is your insentive to completeing your apprenticeship. Mentioned earlyer in the thread was a rate somewhere around $14-$17 per hour. With the cost of liveing what it is today (house cost's etc) How can a person support a family and get excited about a career if that is where they are going to cap out, I would have to discourage my own kids from getting into the trades if that was the case every where. Welding as a trade has been a rewarding and satisfing career for me though and not a day goes by when there is not something new to learn or process in which to practice to furture inhance ones skill level. Some of my comments do not seem to be to point of this thread but none the less my 2bits.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-07-2007 20:52
makeithot, you are correct, there are very few "old school" work ethics out there and they sure aren't being taught anywhere I know of.  To any newbie welders, just remember, welding is a skilled art as well as a science... your work is your signature and it may well outlive you... do it with pride and always, always, always try to make that next bead that much better than the last one. 
Parent - - By drifter57 (**) Date 05-08-2007 13:29
Richard, I am sorry if I implied that that wage is a "cap". Around this area that is the average starting wage. Now with housing cost, 65K to 75K will buy you a NICE 4 bedroom house with pheasant,duck,goose and deer hunting right out your back door. NO!!! state income tax. With a full benefit package I still think that a person can live a pretty good life as a skilled trade worker here. Our kids are born and raised working,so as far as getting and keeping good workers that is not a problem.Nothing is handed to them, you want a car? EARN IT. Mom and dad do not but it for you . If you are not working as a kid you do not need a car! Yes, some of the younger generation move to the bigger cities to work in the "cleaner" jobs, but a whole lot if them realise in the trades you can make and earn a decent living if you work for it. A lot of them go to the trade schools for welding, electrican, automoive, building trades etc, because the know that if they want to work that they can retire in a pretty good like style.My son graduates in a week from votech as a electrcian, has a job lined up with a starting wage of 18.71 with benefits. Not a bad starting wage.
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 05-09-2007 01:38
No worries Tom, around here a house with a 1/2 acre goes for 450-500k .But I would consider 18.71 a good wage for an apprentice.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-10-2007 09:11 Edited 05-10-2007 10:25
downhandonly      EXACTLY!!!!!

The thing is what kid nowadays wants to mess with messy grinders, fire, sweat, electrocution, smoke, and all that jazz when they can go to school to make video games and sit at a desk all day????  I see a day coming when welders, electricians, sheet metal/ fabricators will command top dollar because there simple is a lack of them.  Now I dont mean lack of trade school grads but a lack of experienced dyed in the wool WELDERS.

I do this because I ENJOY my work...not because its all I can do...( degree in elecrical engeenering, experience as a planner, computer programming and made "self taught" and made a living with all three)  

Sad thing is there are tricks of the trade that are dying with welders.....like brazing iron for one......hmmmm the guys that know these secrets hold some vauable info that can't be taught from a BOOK.

BTW  XPERTFAB   your POST is right on the dang money man.  I know """" Educated"""" people (engineers mainly)  who could not figure their way out if a cerial box!!!!   I believe education without practical experience is almost USELESS!.
Parent - - By magodley (**) Date 05-10-2007 12:19
You still can't go to school long enough to get experience. Real engineers are as scarce as real welders.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-11-2007 03:49
ONE WORD;

PROFESSIONAL.....

DOES THAT NOT SAY IT ALL????????????????????
Parent - By GE WELDER Date 05-20-2007 13:22
Hey everyone,I am new to this forum.I just wanted to comment on the WJ article.I have discussed it many times with other welders and ther are many different opinions.I personally have been welding for 19 years and have been everything from a helper to a pipefitter/pipewelder up to a superintendent/progect manager/estimator.I currently am a pipewelder for GE GAS TURBINES.I can personally say that here in the South "real" welders are hard to come by.I can't tell you how many people I went through trying to hire good welders.The young people just out of wellding schol usually changed their mind after a few days in the real world welding.As far as all the hipe about higher education making you smarter or better than us craftsman,that's a pile of crap.Next time you are welding and an "educated person "comes by ,hand him a rig and let him show you something.Odds are they will look at you likeyour stupid.I've always said intelligence is " relitive". Now I am in no way knocking engineers or anyone else with an education but do they deserve more money or more praise ? I say NO!!!
Parent - By Marslo Date 05-21-2007 17:08
I used to study Graphical design before doing welding. The situation there was about the same, lots of people graduating, coming out with nice big pieces of paper. Telling who ever looked at it, that they knew what they where doing. But not many of them had actual talent. I hated this for so long, but i finally came to understand. To some one who doesn't understand what art is, hiring some one with a diploma is allot easier. A diploma to whom he can relate to and which he does understand. There is allot of horrible graphic designers out there, same as for welders, engineers, etc.

As for the respect, I have been studying welding for under a year now, at this moment I'm just turning 20. I picked up welding on a cross Canada tour, and found it was how i wanted to make society grow after coming around the canal lachine in Montreal, Quebec. I was stuck by how many monuments where left in honor of all the iron workers, whom on a larger scale, opened the first route to the great lakes. We may not get much respect, but we are the ones that make are country's grow.
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