I've been here over 1 1/2 years. I was brought on board to start a QC department and gain the ASME U and NBIC R stamps. It has been a severe struggle from the beginning. From old school welders who have never had to undergo inspection, to lack of involvement from upper management.
Up until recently, I've mainly had a major problem with 2 out of 3 welders. One in particular (nicknamed by shop personnel as "God", or "King" due to his self riteous attitude) has repeatedly thrown huge temper tantrums (yelling, cussing, throwing things) when a weld of his has been marked for repair. I must say, this is the absolute most horrible attitude I have ever seen; I wont go into all the things I could say about him, as I have to act professional. Another welder basically seems to think that everything I mark up id the stupidest thing he has ever seen - this guy thought it was stupid for me to inspect a weld with a flashlight, if that tells you anything. I have had really hard time with these two guys. I have had no support from their boss, my supposed equal, when I have a problem with these guys' attitudes. Just recently has our boss finally started to get involved, only because I had a serious sit dwn with him regarding his lack of involvement.
Well today, I had my boss, the shop manger, and the "engineer" (there's a reason those are in quotation, but I wont get into that) come into my office for some discussion. Basically, the latest vessel I inspected and marked up for repair has gone untouched for 2 days because the welder decided he'd had enough and refused to repair it. He then complained to the shop manager that I'm way too picky. So then, shop manager tells our boss that it's BS the stuff I marked, they go and look at it, then make their way to my office.
1st question from shop manager - the little spec of buckshot you marked up, do you really think it affects the integrity of the vessel.
my reply - if it was buck shot, it was a workmanship issue, and should be removed. I explained that it was more than likely an arc strike, that is why I marked it up.
I kept explaining over and over that anything I mark up is rejectable due to minimum code requirements, and it is not my job to determine if it actually affect the integrity of that certain vessel. Ipulled out my little "cheat sheet" of visual inspection criteria that was given to and reviewed by him AND the welders, which the welder's readily have accesible, and told them that that is what I look for, and what I inspect to. Every welder knows exactly what I am looking for. I also explained that with indications such as undercut, the length and width do not matter...it's the depth. He just couldn't understand that. Same with pin holes, incomplete fusion, cold lap.....our spec says NONE. It does not matter how tiny it is.....if it's there, it's rejectable. Again, he just can not understand it.
Meanwhile my boss is trying to cool things off between us. He suggest that we get corporate QC involved and maybe pull another inspector from another shop in to look over my shoulder, to make sure I'm not being too picky. I explained that if they do not have enough trust in me to do my job as I'm supposed to, I should not be here, and that if I'm not allowed to do my job, I don't want to be here. My boss explained that he didn't mean it that way, and that all areas of the company are undergoing double checks in all departments (we have a pending merger).
The last question by the shop manager - "if there is a tiny pin head size spot of incomplete fusion, do I really think it would affect the vessel? Putting the code aside, if we were on the street just bs'ing, do you actually think that it would blow up?"
my answer - "I have no clue, it's not my job to determine that."
his response - "my point exactly, you don't know"
I don't know what they expect QC to do. Let things slide just because they may not cause a big BOOM??? It seems that this is the attitude of the entire shop!!
Sorry to vent. I'm just getting really fed up with crap around here.
Hang in there! We've all fought those battles at one time or another. Discouraging when management won't back you though. If it is any consulation, I've been called picky, and many other names also....LOL
i've dealt with this issue a few times in the past. In the worst case i wrote a ncr due to production consistently not following the qc manual. maybe not the worst, i had an iron worker halfway succeed in holding me over the side of the 16th floor of a building
I once bought process equipment for Chiyoda - millions of dollars a year for this stuff, most of it involving various vessels.
Tell your bosses they won't get our business until their welds are within spec. All of the welds and every inch of the welds.
Other fabricators have no trouble meeting this. Again, tell your shop they're out of their league.
Whooda thunk it!!!!!????!!
The ink isn't dry on your CWI Card, and you are in the position of all the veterns of both in house QC and Third Party QA! Did you think it was supposed to be easy!?
One of my old bosses used to say to me "Joe, it's your job to sit on my face if the bridge is going to fall down! Otherwise, you train the welders to do it right, but you do not interfere with production or delivery!"
In three years I signed off only four pieces! It was hard to agrue with him in many respects. As bad as some oif our welds looked, they were generally better looking than the other welds on the jobs made by big name bridge fabricators. (With some notable exceptions, such as High Steel, National Eastern, Montague Betts, who always had fine welds!)
You have to do what you can, and kep the faith. Start looking around for other jobs. If you go into other shops you will often see the same problems.
On the other hand, For the last two months now, I have had the pleasure of working at a shop (Greiner Industries, Mt. Joy PA) that has the finest attitude toward quality that I've seen in the last six shops that I've been in. However, soon enough I will be back in some frying pan.
Your frustration may be aggravated by that new CWI card in your pocket! You have got to stick with it. Good luck!
Well, I've been off of work for a while now. I came home, mowed the grass, and detailed my truck...all the while thinking how to prove my case, and make a solid point. Then it hit me, and then frustartion came over me as to why I didn't think of it at the time.
Three days ago a pipe from our field ops came in for repair due to a cracked weld that ran through the weld, the flange neck, and part of the reducer that it was on. That day, I studied it like crazy, wondering what could have caused it. Well the "main" cause was stress and vibration, but all of my training has taught me that damn near every failure will occour from a starting point ON THE SURFACE. As I examined the crack, it's hard for me to know exactly where it started, but I could see that half of the crack ran right along the root against the base metal, and in one small part, you could see a tiny chunk of root weld metal missin...like it broke off.
My point here is that, no I don't know for a fact, but 99% probability tells me that that crack started somewhere on the weld, and if so, there was some kind of stress riser to initiate it from that point. Did the weld cause it to fail, no probably not. But was something in or on the weld that caused it to crack there? More than likely. Was it a huge gaping undercut, a large pin hole, a giant spot of incomplete fusion? I don't know...but does it have to be???
I thought about this for a while, and I will most definately bring it up on Monday. Hopefully get my point across. Our piping and vessels are always subjected to vibration and stress. Always enough to cause a failure, nope. But is the potential there? YES!!!
Sorry!! I have no one else really to vent this stuff to right now, well no one that has any clue of what I'm really talking about. Not looking for sympathy, just getting it off my chest before I BLOW UP!!!!
It's really hard being an inspector. Not many friends (at work), people talk about you behind your back, people argue with you, people think you're an idiot because "that little pinhole is not going to do anything"!! I've gotten used to it for the most part. What makes it so bad right now is that even after a year and a half, the whole QC concept is new at my location. Which means management doesn't even really understand it. All they know is it's something corporate told them they had to get. This is a really hard uphill battle - trying to educate and get support.
There at the point where the 2 welders are threatening to quit because of me...and oh my God, we can't have that...that would slow down production!!!
My point on Monday will be - Either make the welders conform to the standards or find a new QC...because I guarantee you, I won't conform to the welders.
You will run into these bumps in the road from time to time, I still do. In time, you won't take them home with you. With all due respect, I certainly hope your delivery on the job is not a contributing factor..... because it can happen to any of us. When it does, it's hard to see.
But the bottom line is this, your shop has elected to buy into a game with an established set of rules that does not allow for very many personal variations or exceptions. The sooner everyone figures this out the better. Then all of you can get down to business and produce the level of quality that is expected.
On the bright side, everyone involved will have a couple of days to cool off. I'll bet you aren't the only one thinking about Monday morning. Get a positive picture in your mind of how you expect things to turn out and forget all the what-ifs. Let us know how things work out.
~thirdeye~
Hey Tito,
I know the feeling quite well.....it will take a toll on you "IF YOU LET IT"......Don't! In all the places I worked, as soon as the feeling started that I wasn't looking forward to going to work....I started looking elsewhere. I moved on before a company's attitude, lack of concern regarding work quality and ethics, and general disregard for the parameters established to maintain a level of excellence, to become a constant battle and effort to strive to get better and accept the corrective measures. It is a proven statistic that 97% of every failure of a company was because of management and management decisions. It's a shame that one or more of the "Prima Donna" vacuum-brained a-holes who "think" they are greatest, can manipulate management to cast doubt on your integrity to follow established guidelines & criteria that is to insure the reliability of their weldments.
All you can do is provide the information and corrective measures that have to be addressed, and if management chooses to disregard this, then simply make a decision that will satisfy you and simply move on if that is all that is left to maintain your sanity, emotional stability, and integrity of work. It simply shows you the nature and character of the company who's primary interest is "just get it done...anyway, anyhow". I never bring work home or take home to work.....It has never failed me.....Good luck...Denny
Good Morning,
I suggest to get some practical visual examples of what might go wrong from the defects you mark up, A while ago, I think John or someone had an excellent post about cracking caused by arc strikes. Furthermore anything that is subjected to vibration should be virtually 100% defect free, this is just fracture mechanics, Just do some reading on cyclic stresses and you will see the dangers of stress raisers in service where it is subjected to vibration. Vibration is the breaker of all structure, sooner or later, so you have to be prepared for the worse. We weld subsea pipelines and yes we also want the most lenient criteria for a job, but all our welds are subjected to very severe testing before these criteria is established. Stick to your guns and mark it up, and read about the cause and effect of failures, and if someone then asks you: " do you know?" Then you can give a clear indication of what might happen in similar service conditions.
http://www.key-to-steel.com/default.aspx?ID=Articleshere is a link with some general Steel Properties and Fracture mechanics etc etc
here is the link to the sicission on arc strikes and subsequent cracking
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=58419;hl=arc%20strike%20crack#pid58419Goodluck
HF
Please do not offer your boss an ultimatum!!!!!!! They may just take you up on it. Then what good can you do?!?!?! Do not get fired over this! Roll with the punches when you need to and stand your ground when you need to. Stick with it and perhaps you can cause gradual change. If you save just one life by being a concientious inspector, it will make up for a lot of the grief you are feeling now!
Don't jump right into amateur "failure analysis". (It is not necessarily correct that "damn near every failure will occour from a starting point ON THE SURFACE.") If you are going to perform "Failure Analysis" as part of your defense, you need to be sure you are right. You need special training, special equipment, a good ASM International library and some supervised experience.
The problems you are dealing with "in house" are the same thing that most of us have dealt with on a continuous basis. You have to keep the faith, keep your integrity intact and bend to your employers wishes where you can. Check your job description and analyze when and where you can quibble in favor of your employer. It will be tricky, so you need to err on the side of the real truth and integrity. Don't Lie!
As for the two welders who are going to quit because of you, the employer will look at your ultimatum the same way. It is the same threat just different subjects or a different point of view. It sounds like that they will be more valuable then they are right now!
Just from a welders point of view : We have our job to do & inspection has their job to do. When QC came to our business , we had to get used to it, and when you realize that without some type of inspection, well - anything goes. In the oilfield where I work we often remove old piping etc. installed in the 60's. Ive seen lots of welds that are really ugly. Ive also seen piping crack from the bead outwards under pressure and vibration. When an x-ray tech puts a ribbon on one of my welds , my experiance ( 29 years ) tells me he is seeing something, so I make the repair and everyone is happy. Sure we have had clients whos inspectors were fussey, but its their dime and as long as we are getting paid , whats the big deal. Most of the other rig welders I work with share this attitude. Hope things work out for you - WS
Another welders point of view:
I have at times felt sorry for inspectors (done boiler work before in a shoddy...just get it done shop). They always have personal pressure from the guys on the floor they have to work with and management who (in a poorly run shop in my opinion) only worry bout the bottom line delivery and a check. I remember a fellow who was a code inspector in one shop by the name of Richard....funny when the straw bosses were out on vacation he would always nominate me to do all the layouts and tell the crew not to chalk anything let me do it. It was like being on vacation for me....a whloe week or two without having to air arc out sub arcs and such. The only reason he would do that is because he knew the quality of my work meant more to me than him...personally wise. He did not have to correct me because i already beat myself up over it ...in the beginning anyway. BUT thats not why I liked him.....
I liked Richard because he had integrity, and principals and they meant more to him than his job. He stood up when it was not right and literally risked his job on a regular basis. He also had no problem telling the welders to "make it right" when we screwed up. This cost him personally and many guys in the shop hated his guts...but they also were the ones who were first to say F**%$$% it when doing thier work and it got tough too. I learned from Richard that being able to live with yourself when you go home at night is a lot more important than if someone else can live with you. I guess I am just trying to say is "Do what you know is right, what you have learned to do and you can't go wrong." In the end I reliazed that by enforcing the codes and making the hard choices Richard was actually protecting all of our livelyhoods and trying to improve quality and making the company successfull. Culture change in a shop is a hard row to hoe my friend...but if you stick to your guns you will be able to sleep at night no matter what the outcome.
This may be your first rodeo in the inspection field but I doubt it will be your only or your last.......because of the attitude you have.
Remember you will only be truly successfull if you enjoy what you do...thats why I am a welder and not an engineer.
Good luck man
Stick to your guns. They caught hell trying to get me to preheat everything up in Alaska, but I finally got to the point where I was tired of butting heads with the QC's all the time and just started doing it.
Tito,
Congratulations on your attitude toward doing the job you are supposed to do. I know it can be difficult. One thing going for you is that the industry (welding in general and certain areas in particular) is very active right now and many quality organizations are looking for good people. If you see no improvement in your current situation, it may be time to look around. What area of the country are you in? Houston's Oil & Gas related businesses are all crying for good people. Senior welding technicians and CWI's are in great demand.
I am not one to "cut and run" because of minor problems, but sounds like the roots may run a bit deeper. Keep the faith, but you have to "know when to fold 'em" also.
As an inspector I totally understand your frustrations. I too, have been called picky, along with a few other things. As a female (yep female) you can only imagine the reaction by the welders when I tell them thier welds aren't acceptable. I'm going into my 10th year as QC and I would like to say that it has become easier however I think that quality is never easy to achieve and it is a constant struggle to get welders to conform. An advantage that I have is the fact that I worked as a welder for 20 years prior to getting my CWI certificate. On a few occasions I have actually put on my hood and shown some of these guys that I know what I'm talking about. It takes a while to earn the respect that is required to be able to "do your job" but if you practice what you preach and don't waver from your convictions and what you know to be acceptable then it will come. Good Luck!
new tito,
One of my oldest clients, going on 27 years, has a manufacturing procedure manual containing a vast amount of information from material selection, procedures, & techniques specific to their company. Every welder has a copy. In the quality section of that manual it is explains that the welder is responsible for performing the first inspection on his/her completed weld (size, profile, cleaning, stamping etc.) before releasing it for inspection. A description and limitation of every defect and grinding requirement is listed for easy reference. An explanation of weld symbols or specific drawing requirements is also included. This put the "rules" right down on the production floor. Because of the shortage of welders a lot of new hires and sub-contractors are coming on board. Last year they added color photographs to the manual. It made it really easy to visualize exactly what is expected.
How much spatter is allowable? There are two pictures showing sizes and concentration. How do I blend grind this gusset termination? or what does a TIG dressed toe look like? Both are right there. Ok you get the idea. Not only has this eliminated a lot of re-work but saved time because the lead men or inspectors don't have to explain the same thing over and over. I can't tell you how many times I have drawn a soapstone diagram or taken a welder to another weldment and said "this is what your weld needs to look like". Anyway, the number of mark-ups are way down and the learning curve for the younger welders is shorter. Everyone benefits.
~thirdeye~
Thanks for all the replies and support. I have already called another emplyer that is looking for a QC Manager, just in case I cant win this battle.
Thirdeye, I have done a very similar thing in my shop when I came about. Obviously it has never been taken seriously due to the lack of support.
I will report back Monday when everything is cleared up.
It sounds to Me like somebody needs to remind Your boss that the sucess of the pending merger may hang on not being able to perform to the quality certs. That somebody is whoever [at the corporate level] decided they needed a person in Your capacity in the first place. If it turns out that the code level of quality is too expensive for the product, that is something the engineers and bean counters need to hash out.
Hi New Tito
Too bad your welders have 1 ear 2 mouths.
As a welder I lean toward humility.
I'll share a short story I experienced as a young welder 20 some years ago as a new hire going through the Lima Army Tank Plant, Welding School. To be accepted into the program we ran three vertical stringers on 1" plate that could be mistaken for flat welds.
Early in the program an engineer spent an afternoon with the class where we watched live fire films at an M1A1 Abrams Tank. We were truly amazed at the engineering attention given to crew survivabilty, NBC Filters, Heavy Armor, sealed ammo compartments. He emphasized that only through the welder's individual attention to every ounce of deposited weld metal would the engineering resolve to insure 100% crew survivabilty be achieved.
To conclude: he pulled out a 1' square coupon from a 1" thick test fire plate using a 50mm cannon, it was concave and clearly absorbed the impact centered on the "sound" X-ray weld, it would have held a basketball perfectly.
A second plate that revealed 1/2" LOF defect on X-ray, impact split the weld tearing out a 10lb chunk of steel the size of my large fist! He ask if any of us would like this fragment flying around a tank that we were in? How about your son? how about your grandson? When you see tank footage from Iraq,,,It's an
M1A1 or A2.
The point is we all do better work when someone is looking over our shoulder. Hang in there.
Randy
and here's another option , your a CWI now ,,,, you sound like you really know whats going on ,,,, you can always put all this QC stuff aside and go work construction...........?????
like you said , theres a zero tolerance here , if you can see it , its got to be fixed.......period
forget about bringing in another inspector , bring in the guy in charge of it all , you don't need an inspector to see whats going here,,,,,,,,these guys just don't like being told what to do,i can just hear them now talking crap about you from the day you started this , things like "look at him, i can already tell he's going to be a jerk about things , ect",,,,and i'll bet by now , its turned into somewhat of a "personal" matter. (with them anyway)...kings a natural born ass hole , and the shop manager isn't doing his job.......they need to be put in there place..........."temper tantrums" , "throwing things",,,,someone needs to throw his ass right out the door,,,who puts up with that kind of crap anyways......either fix it or hit the road,,,,,,and take your boss with you , since you and him work so good together.......
you would think that the owner of your company wouldn't want it any other way........
someone needs to step up and dethrone "king",,,,,,,,,and at the least , tell his boss either get with the program or else.......
i can't believe you have to put up with this kind of crap , not to mention the uneasy feeling that comes with it,,,,,,,it sure does ruin the day....
i sure hope things settle down over there for you , don't worry , it will,,,,,,it dosen't go away , people like that just find something else to complain about , thats all.......
like i said before , you can always work construction,,,,,,and probably make more money at it too........
i think that asking your corporate qc to come in and audit your shops integration of new qc standards might be a good idea. this is where all the new requirements are coming from. having corporate there standing by you can go a long way. and if it were to go poorly, this might answer questions about whether it is time to look elsewhere.
I agree with JA 100%. In this country there is such a thing as a hositle work environment. Its illegal. If you think you need to resort to this level it is possible it man be possible to bring a lawsuit against this company. If the managers are doing nothing to prevent this kind of behavior, they may be found liable. I was in a similar situation several years ago in another company where I did not get along with a couple other guys. It almost came to fists on a couple of occasions. You can find out more info by looking on the internet under your states labor laws. However I would view this as a last resort option. I've worked with these idiots like this "king" guy before. Usually they don't know anything because they are too busy running their mouths rather than using their ears. Chances are this idiot is just trying to run your off. Employees like him are poison in a company, they destroy morale and kill productivity. Keep doing your job and stand your ground. The first time you let them walk over you and you'll be done. Stick to your guns, be fair and consistent with your inspection.
Well, I have not heard any mention of anything yet. I spoke with our corporate QC and explained my position to him and that the basic "problem" is that the welders are tired of having to follow inspection criteria. He gathered some info from me as to how I'm interpreting the code and what the code actually says, and I also sent him copies of the code sections. He's proposing to come down next week and try to help iron this stuff out, which I welcomed, and try to get everyone on the same page and come to an agreement. I briefly expalined the "king" situation, but without all of the details of the fit throwing and such. I simply explained that what the problem is, is that 2 of these welders, over the past year and a half, have not ACCEPTED qc and the inspection program....that they'll call for inspections, but still think it is the most pointless thing in the universe, and that things won't change untill they change, and that I have not had much support in trying to make that mental change. I explained to him everything that I inspect to and, and explained that it is the same criteria that has been implemented for a year and a half, and that the resistance is just as strong as the day I started.
I have also put in an e-mail to my AI supervisor for his interpretation of visual acceptance criteria, and what I inspect to. Hopefully I will hear back soon before my 2:30 meeting with my boss.
I have cooled down a bit, so I don't think I'll threaten to quit anymore...as mentioned above, they may have taken me up on it...plus I'm greatful that this did all happen on Friday, and I had a few days to cool off.
I know it's not easy being a welder and having to have your welds inspected, but their HAS to come a time when it is just a fact of life....my GOD, live with it or get out!!!!
Thanks to all the comments and posts, and again, I'll report back this afternoon if anything gets settled. this reminds me so much of my 1st QC job right out of school....the QC seemed to be just a position to have because somebady else said we need it. Only difference is, there may be hope to change that here.
As for working construction, I've though about it, but not thrilled about going back into the plants. And surely dont want to travel...too much hell on the family life!! But, I'll never say never, cause you never know!!
In any line of work, quality should be built into the product, not inspected into the product.
How right you are! However, even in companies that really believe in their quality system and have a "Quality" mentality, it has been my experience that inspection is always necessary to keep everyone on the straight and narrow!
Joe,
Mine too. I totally agree with you. Inspection is always necessary. It just makes the inspector's life much easier when everyone else is taught what to do or what not to do. My goal in our plant is to educate everyone on the floor so that they know these things. In many cases, it's just as easy, or easier to do something correctly by the code than it is to do it wrong.
Just got out of my meeting.....no progress. It was discussed that corporate QC was contacted and will make a visit next week. Bossman didn't want to discuss much further than that. I asked what do I do in the meantime while we're waiting for this to get ironed out...."keep doing what you're doing" was his response.
New Tito,
I've said this before to other folks in similar situations- it takes in excess of 5 miles to get a supertanker to start turning. Now to add to that...we can't always see what is happening in the pilot house, so we don't know if the pilot is asleep at the wheel or if he's doing what he is supposed to. That is - until the course adjustment has been completed.
Many of us have faced situations similar to what you are seeing now. Some of us are facing problems right now, and will again and again.
The best advice I have seen is to hold fast to your integrity. That is your most valuable tool you can have in your collection.
Document everything you do and the directions you give out. Do your utmost to be fair and impartial- even when someone is in your face about your findings (when you master that, let me know and I'll sign up for your class).
The biggest reality that I have to keep coming back to is not to think too highly of myself. My company could get along without QC for a time but they can't survive long without production employees. There really is more than one way to skin a cat and my way might not be as good as I think it is. So instead, I try to remember what it's like to be on the production line, mix in what the specifications and good practices say to do, and try to get buy-in from those who will actually be doing the work. There are times when I have to dig in and be the bad guy. But usually if I can allow time for a procedure to "become their own idea" the company benefits. Those who matter know where the credit goes to.
You will know when it is time to shake the dust off your shoes and move on. You don't sound like a quitter, so I think you know, that if you can hang in there, the results will be worth it some time to come. If that doesn't become the case, you will have gained valuable experience in what and what not to do on another job.
If they want "pinprick" of X size to be allowable, then they need to get their specs rewritten to allow pinpricks of size X. If that won't fly, then I guess it's just not allowable...
Hg
I have a brother-in-law from Texas that says, "Some people are so stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to reproduce."
I modify that to say, "Some companies are so stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to stay in business." Guess what, they don't usually stay in business for very long. Darwin was correct about the survival of the fittest.
You have a responsibility to yourself, the general public, and your employer. That responsibility is to protect the safety of all parties. You have a construction code that provides the applicable acceptance criteria. Your task is simply to accept or reject product based on the acceptance criteria your employer has agreed to meet. Your job is not to argue the point with every welder on the shop floor. You shouldn't have to justify your decisions to the welders, to management, yes, but to the welders, no.
You didn't mention your Authorized Inspector in your post. If you do have an AI, and I would expect you do if there is either an "R" stamp or a "U" involved, what is his/her take on the situation?
As an inspector, your calls may be over ruled by upper management. It is their responsibility to arbitrate and make decisions that affect quality, production, schedules, etc. If you reject a weld, it is management's responsibility to either back-up your call or to over-ride your call and justify their decisions based on good engineering judgment and good business practices. That doesn't mean your call was wrong, just that they are accepting responsibility for the decision they make.
As stated by someone else, document everything and keep your own copy of each report.
At some point, your skin will thicken and resemble "Rhino-hide". At some point, you will decide you have had enough and you'll look for work else where for employment. In the long term, this employer will most likely not survive if they make the wrong decisions.
Inspection looks easy from the otherside of the welding hood. You have found out for yourself that it isn't. Your decisions will be challenged time and time again. It pays to make sure you are right before making a final determination and always keep your personal opinion out of the decision making process. Stick to the code, don't add your personal preferences to what is already required by the code.
Best regards - Al
By Mwccwi 
Date 05-17-2007 15:52
Edited 05-17-2007 20:36
When I'm at a personal conflict and praying doesn't seem enough - I come here for comfort, about this same time of year in 2004 there was a thread that I found comforting (the 2nd post = the most). For the last 3 years, sometimes just rereading it helps me get back to perspective.
I wish to share the link.
Don't give up, I've added you to my prayer list.
Edit the link :)
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=25942;hl=%20inspectors#pid25942
I like AI's statment:Stick to the code, don't add your personal preferences to what is already required by the code.
I was one of five inspectors in a shop couple years ago. My experience tells me as a inspector, first you have to understand products and the codes applied, second you have to have GOOD communication skills in all levels. One inspector in my shop gets arguments everyday with operators simply because the operators didn't like him. The reason was that he didn't talk much, just marking defects then moved to another site. He didn't even response jokes from operators. The good part was the management always supports inspectors. But for this inspector I don't think he was happy with his job.
It is the worst situation that the conficts in work change to personal. Operators might understand the fact of the rejection but don't accept the inspector. If they don't accept (or respect) you. the argument will be always there.
New tito, you have to look back of yourself why you get into the situation like that, it's way more than just doing your job. I understand there are reasons from 2 welders, but is there any reason on your part?
My suggestion: Take this issue as a lesson, move to another employer.
Regards,
Agong
Your point about good communication is well taken. Good communication is an art mastered by few. I'm still working at it.
"Never say never", but never get into a shouting match or argument with the welders or other inspectors. That's not part of your job description. That's management's responsibility. I never argue a point of contention with a welder. There is a difference between a discussion and an argument.
I use the tactic of saying that the welder has a good point, but he needs to take it up with management, only they can over-ride the "code" requirements. I typically show the welder the code requirements and show them that any "reject" is simply based on the code. Never let the welder (or anyone else for that matter) turn the situation into a personal attack on you or your abilities.
Keep any discussion focused on the facts. There are some individuals that want to know what the requirements are and the basis of any rejection. They use that information to improve their skills and understanding of the project requirements. Then there are those people that will argue that day is night and night is day. They intimidate the folks working with them by their bluster and by shouting down the opposition. Don't waste your time with the later. Mark the rejects and move on.
When the welder act belligerent because you reject a weld or part, mark it and inform the welder's foreman of the rejects. Let the welder's boss ask you the questions. Answer the questions politely using the code as the basis of your "calls". There will be occasions when they show you something that bolsters their position or if you have misinterpreted the requirements (it may happen now and again), move on. Let the welder's foreman explain the reason or justification of the rejection to the belligerents. In time the welding foreman is going to learn that you do understand the code and the requirements as they affect your projects. The foreman will tire of the belligerent's attitude and he will get tired of acting as the emissary between you and the welders. Eventually, he will tell the welders to repair what is rejected and stop the BS.
Don't take the foreman's questions as a personal affront on your integrity or your abilities as an inspector. He is trying to get a job completed on time and on budget with the people he has.
Like Rumsfeld said, "You don't go to war with the army you wish you had, you go to war with the army you have." Such words of comfort and wisdom.
Back to you and the welding foreman. He's thinking what Rumsfeld said, but is smart enough not to say it out loud. He's going to side with the welders because it is in his short term interest, but eventually he will get the message. It is easier for you to train one person (the foreman) than it is for you to train 20 men (the welders). Let the foreman train his welders to listen when you speak.
As for the welder's refusal to complete the required repairs, it's not your problem. You are simply the eyes and ears of the QC/QA manager. Let him fight the battles, that his job, not yours.
Good luck - Al
To add to the stickyness - I am the QC Manager. So all battles fought are by me, and me alone...with it seems like a lack of support from my immediate boss.
The so called welding foreman is the main welder giving me the most trouble. He's a welder, but is over the other two welders. More of a lead man, but runs the welding shop completely.
When I have problems with any of them, it's straight to the plant manager I go. Sometimes helpful, sometimes not. The shop is on the "good ol' boy" buddy system. The shop manager is more worried about keeping a good welder (a very good stick welder) and a friend employed than he is about making him follow standards.
As for arguing about rejections - I have never argued with a welder here. Simply put that there are rejectable indications that need to be fixed before it moves to the next stage. During our first meeting (the one that started this thread), I told them that I'll mark up indications that are rejectable per code, and it was up to engineering or my boss to opverride me. Our so called engineer piped off "so all I'll have to do is sign off on it???? (with a gleam in his eye thinking he could make the call on all these so called BS rejects)"....until I pointed out that all uncorrected rejects would be issued an NCR, and good luck getting the AI to sign off on it. I'm sure it could be done, but I would like to see the proof of, and how they'd come up with good engineering judgement on a call like that.
AL, I have recieved a response from my AI regarding visual inspections. It was pretty much the answer I was looking for and expected. ASME sec VIII is not very clear on visual inspections. In fact, a lot is up to interpretation, and this point was reinforced by my AI. However, I was not off one bit in my interpretation. Undercut and weld reinforcement have definite criteria, but complete fusion and penetration are slightly hinted to in several paragraphs as to meaning incomplete fusion and penetration are not allowed. This interpretation was reinforced by my AI. As for cracks and surface porosity, not mentioned anywhere except in criteria given for NDT methods other than visual (RT, UT, MT, PT).
Thing is, when I first started, the welders and the shop manager were aware of all of this and what I'd be looking for during inspections. I guess now it's just getting in the way of production....but the main issue is it's hurting the welders' feelings, i guess!!!
Corporate has issued a written standard for visual acceptance criteria that has not been fully implemented in my shop yet, and my question to my boss and to the corporate QA was "are we not going to follow these slightly more stringent criteria simply because our welders' have a problem with them?" Corporate's answer was "I dont see why we'd have one shop not following these standards because of the welders." Boss' answer was "I don't know."
Hopefully this will get ironed out soon. Corporate QA will be down here next Friday to meet and discuss theses issues.
Hello "New Tito";
It sounds like it is all coming together, a bit slower than you may like, but it is moving forward never the less.
Based on your "posts", you are on the mark and the AI is backing you without entering the fray. As the AI, he shouldn't get involved with company politics unless it adversely affects the product and code complience. Even then, the AI has to walk a thin line.
Likewise, you stated there is a corporate standard that is applicable. Your job is to enforce it and the job of the production people is to follow it, even if it is much more stringent than the code requires. In the event of a failure, the opposing side will hold up the corporate standard and ask why it wasn't implemented. You will be on the short end of the stick should that question arise and if it is determined you didn't enforce the more stringent requirements.
I believe this will come to a conclusion that supports your efforts. Your job is not to be the welder's best friend. Your job is to enforce the code and corporate requirements. It seems you are doing your part.
Corporate may have to consider whether production is holding up their end of the "rope". If not, maybe corporate will see that it's time for changes in personnel in the production department. I've seen it happen before, it's never painless, but as I stated earlier, only the strong survive.
"Keep doin what's you're doin!"
Best regards - Al
Well holy CRAP!!! I just heard that the shop manager is quitting and going to another company. No details, and I'm not sure if it's 100% final, but that's the word. I can almost gurantee you that if he goes, "KING" will follow....not to mention probably a lot of other personel too.
We'll see what happens.
Don't count your blessings until you see them walking out the door. Then again, don't shed any tears when they do leave.
It sounds like they are playing the old "I'll just take my ball and go home" trick.
See, things do work out sometimes.
Best regards - Al
So the morals of the story are:
"Don't hatchet your Counts before they chicken" and "Time wounds all heels"
(No, I'm not under the affluence of incohol.....maybe later.)
LOL at Chet!!!!!!!!
Hey tito,
Sounds like it's really going to get interesting. There may be some satisfying resolution once the notion takes hold that parameters established must take priority to insure company survival and profitability for all employees to benefit. No one benefits from a company failure because of ignorance and poor management policies. The best thing is, at times, is the initiation to use the "management broom" and sweep out the garbage that's been interfering with a smooth running operation. When I started where I work presently, 8 yrs ago, there were 23 employees.....2 1/2 years ago after all the "dead weight" was "broomed" out, we were down to 5....we're still at 5....we are profitable, very steady influx of orders, and everyone works as a team.
All of the responses have solid validity and I believe Al has really summed up the equation regarding your position, direction, and level of standard that you must be able to "communicate" to have the smooth transition of new implementation into the company's future success. It took 30 years, but I "mastered" communication as Al indicated, and it will be the most important "tool" in your career....for every tool is designed for a specific purpose and works flawlessly if used properly. And Al, if you're not there in your mind yet, you are really, really close....
I believe this forum's members exemplify the level of communication, intelligence, guidance, and willingness to render help, is second-to-none. I have learned so much here just reading and hope I can help out once in a while. You are the most honorable group I am pleasured to know.....Denny
I'm surely not counting any blessings yet. And I'm not too sure that the events of this past week and the pressure to follow these standards had anything to do with his departure....but one can only wonder!!! And judging from my boss' attitude toward the subject doesn't lead me to believe that the "broom" was used, although it be nice if it were.
I agree with you 'pap about the wealth of knowledge and willingness to help out a fellow inspector. This is a daily stop for me during the day, and feels like I actually know alot of the people on here. I'm more of a reader than poster, but guarantee, there's not much that goes on here that I haven't kept up with.
I worked for a metal stamping company who had a toolmaker much like Your "King", and somehow He became the tool shop foreman. He would threaten to "QUIT MY F@#$%&* JOB" when things didn't go His way, or in favor of His son who worked there as a press shop foreman. One day they finally fired the son for violating just about every rule in the book. The father didn't quit, the threat was just more of His mouth flapping in the wind. I hope things work out for You in the end.
