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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Electroslag-Narrow groove
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-10-2007 16:43
Anybody use this process for structural fabrication?
My curiosity has been fueled by a salesman from Arcmatic.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-10-2007 16:59
Hello John, I believe I recall a past thread on the forum that discussed some issues with notch toughness problems or something along that line. Don't take this for gospel as I am just thinking that this is what I read. Hopefully some other more knowledgeable individuals will reply and clear this up for everyone. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-10-2007 20:04
Allen,
I asked specifically about that and the salesman said that they easily get 20ft/lbs @ -20F and the actuals run as high as 40-50ft/lbs @ -20F.

He claimed that this process is very different than the electroslag of the early sixties and seventies. Boy the deposition rates are huge! Material prep is a square groove that is around 3/4" gap and has a rise/fill rate of 1.5" per minute. He uses 2-1/8" wires feeding the puddle and maintains an 1" of flux all the way to the top of the joint.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-10-2007 20:17
Hello again John, that is truly an impressive deposition rate. Now I'm curious as to exactly what types of applications you would plan for this structurally? If my memory also serves me on this process, it requires a damming type of fixture to contain the weld joint on both sides. As I said, I'm curious and would love to hear of this specific application and how it would work on various items. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-10-2007 20:39
From what I saw in the literature and the brief movie, they use water cooled copper shoes for the dams to contain the joint and shape the joint while the filler is molten. Where I saw an advantage over FCAW is when you weld the column shaft full pen to the base plate it is done in one pass rather than multiple passes. Take for instance, we had column shafts this past week that took 81 passes to fill one joint and then that wasn't taking into account the back gouging and refilling on the second side. Also the way that you would weld stiffeners in a column is different in that you cut a slot through the web and use a continuous stiffener rather than two individual stifferners on both sides of the web. Then the stiffeners are welded full pen to the flanges in one pass. No rolling of the column to weld the other side, because it is done all in one vertical pass from the bottom side up through the access hole in the web on up to the top of the stiffener on the top side. The access hole is filled full pen as it passes through the web.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-10-2007 22:46
Thanks for the enlightening response John, I might need to contact these folks and have a look at this. It does sound very interesting. Any idea on rejection rates and such for these types of joints? Also curious as to the amount of shrinkage distortion and the like. As I said I'm curious, I also understand that's why you posed the question, to see if anybody else is using this process and possibly this particular vendor. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-11-2007 00:38
http://arcmatic.com/
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 04-11-2007 03:27
Thank you John!
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-10-2008 17:14
CBI uses a similar process for welding LNG tank wall verts.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-11-2007 17:01
Any body from the West Coast on here that use this process? The salesman is from Vallejo, Ca. and claims that he has 25 fabricators along the West Coast using this process.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-11-2007 17:12
i'm not aware of any in use in oregon, atleast at the major fab shops
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 04-11-2007 17:17
with those charpies, and the amount of deposition, it might be something we start seeing. although it might take a bit to get engineers and building officials to research and accept the process. 
Parent - - By bong Date 05-21-2007 19:11
Hi John, 
I'm happy to see your checking up on the Arcmatic VertaSlag (ESW-NG) welding process.  Here is a partial list of the fabricators using the Arcmatic VertaSlag welding system on a variety of applications including: Barge Fabrication, Stiffener Welding, Bridge Flange Splicing, Heavy Plate splicing, etc.

1.Able Steel Fabricators-Mesa, AZ, 2.ACSS (Anderson-Charnesky)-Cherry Valley, CA,
3. CanAm/Structal-Quebec, 4. CanAm (Sun Building)-Sunnyside, WA, 5. Columbia Steel (One of our first customers)-Fontana, CA,  6. 1.DS Brown Co- Chaska, MN,
7. Jesse Engineering-Tacoma, WA, 8. 1.McMahon Steel-San Diego, CA, 9.Oregon Iron Works-Clackamas, OR, 10. Richwell Steel-Gardena, CA, 11. Schuff Steel - Phoenix, AZ,
12. Steel-Kansas City, MO, 13. Shuff Steel-Gilbert, AZ, 14. Skyline Steel-Gilbert, AZ, 15. SME Industries - West Jordan, UT, 16. Tampa Tank & Structural-Tampa, AZ
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-22-2007 12:25
Hi Bill,
Good to see you. Yup, I would love to see this process in action. Hoping to catch up with someone in our neighborhood that will allow me in their shop to see it. I'm willing to take a day of vacation to see it as long as I can find someone within a day's driving distance of me.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-16-2007 20:30
The "narrow gap" version of ESW has been used for two bridges in Texas but then the one fabricator who bought the equipment got their mind on other matters; the process itself was okay.  Some other fabricators are lined up to do bridge work in FL and CA.

"Original" ESW and Arcmatic's own version of narrow-gap has been used in D1.1 applications--I've talked to one structural fabricator who's been using it (so there must be plenty more) and another fabricator who uses it for bridge joints.  There's nothing in D1.1 to prohibit it and I can't swear to this for sure but I think D1.1 even permits it for tension and cyclically loaded applications.

Arcmatic is one vendor; some of the guys who did the university research in Oregon that led to the development of the revised process also have a company and can sell you stuff or at least make recommendations.  Look up Bob Turpin at Portland State.  (Sorry, Arcmatic, I have to present a level playing field.)

The NG version is intended to help with the toughness issues by reducing grain size by reducing heat input.  Weld toughness nowhere near, say, SAW, but it will meet the minimum requirements for D1.5 in zones 1 & 2.  40-50 ft-lb @ 0F sounds about right; requirement is 20 ft-lb @ 0F.  HAZ toughness nothing to write home about, but is generally expected to match the base metal requirements for non-fracture-critical A 709 Gr. 36 & 50 (around 15-20 ft-lb @ 40F).  Deposition rate is pretty damn impressive--it is what Arcmatic says it is, and can go even faster than that.

Not a whole lot of internal flaws in the welds--they don't really get the terrible piping porosity any more that they used to get with ESW in the old days, and there are no passes to trap slag and other junk in between.  Most common defect we were seeing was undercut or lack of fusion right at the weld toe, and it's usually grindable, or maybe a stick pass to fix it.  (But NDE your repair--ESW got banned from bridge work in the 70s because of a failure traceable to a repair!)  There's also a chance of lack of fusion so you want to UT, though my understanding is the UT is a bit of a challenge.

Hg
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-16-2007 20:49
Bill Bong is who came to our shop. He worked for Hobart and Linde back in the day when ESW was deleoped and still being used.....before the Bridge failure that you spoke of. I saw a picture on Arcmatic's website of him and Bill Via from VDOT at a bridge fabricator in Richmond, Va looking over a PQR test plate. I was hoping to talk with somebody at Williams Bridge to see if they would allow me to see that process in action. I seriously doubt our plant would get enough good use out of the equipment to make it worth while to purchase.
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 04-16-2007 21:12
That reminds me of what I forgot to say in my earlier post.

If you manage to streamline the setup, it can be a worthwhile process to use.  It's a vertical process so positioning the workpiece can be unwieldy, and the consumable guides are costly (they're a fabricated item and there's not a whole lot of competition right now to drive the prices down).  The bigger your weld, the more economical the process (travel speed in roughly the same range regardless of weld size), so it really depends on what kind of stuff you weld and also where your bottlenecks happen to be.

Bill Bong should be able to steer you to several fabricators who have bought his equipment, as long as they don't mind him letting other parties know that kind of information about their internal workings.  There was a series of demo projects, but (a) they're not doing them any more (b) welding a sample plate doesn't give you an accurate picture of what it takes to set up a full-size piece in a vertical position.

Hg
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-13-2007 09:13
Hi John,

I hope you're doing quite well!

Just a short question on your intention to talk to the 'Williams Bridge' people.

Have you meanwhile had the opportunity to see the process in action?

Thanks for a short reply in advance and my best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-14-2007 10:29
Sorry Stephan, no I have not yet talked with these people. I did talk with someone who says that they could help me get a look at that process in action, he thinks there should be no problem since this company is not in direct competition with ours. Crossing my fingers that I will be able to work something out before too long. I don't see my company buying into that process, but I would still be eager to have a look at it in action.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-14-2007 11:08
John!

Thanks a lot for your response!

It would surely be extremely interesting, so I'll keep crossed my fingers, too!

Take care and regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By weld4799 Date 05-16-2007 21:14
John,
I do know that ESAB automation also sells narrow groove ESW equipment and are very fimilar with the process.
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 05-17-2007 12:45
King Tulley is the man to talk to at Williams Bridge.  Who is making the flux for Arcmatic?  When the fabricators that do work for NYS were interested in the NGI, no one had made flux for several years, so the interest went away.
Parent - By agong (**) Date 05-17-2007 14:56
I have experience with Lincoln NR-431 wire with consumable guide tube for the application. But it's 12 years ago so don't remember the number of flux.

Found a good article:
http://www.nabro.unl.edu/articles/20002012/download/Verma.pdf

gong
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 05-17-2007 16:34
King Tilley is the Williams Bridge guy.

I believe Arcmatic gets their flux from Russia.  (Non-metallic, so doesn't violate Buy America restrictions.)  The Portland guys may know of another source.

Hg
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 05-21-2007 23:20
I'm not sure who makes the flux, but Hobart makes the wire.  They may know who makes the flux if they don't make it themselves.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 11-09-2008 15:42
Hi John,

don't want to warm this up again, but since I am reading somewhat interesting about this process at the moment, I have remembered this discussion from the time.

Did you actually have a look at it, finally?

Thanks and best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 11-09-2008 19:21
Just as a followup, here are a couple links to info regarding the discovery of the cracking.  Since the 70's a lot of things have been learned regarding consumables (especially the flux) and the base materials that work well with ESW.
http://pghbridges.com/ambridge/0573-4484/i79nevillebkch.htm
http://www.nabro.unl.edu/events/dec1998/index.asp
Regards
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 11-09-2008 19:50
Most excellent information!

Thanks Fredspoppy!
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-10-2008 12:08
We never did persue this any farther. I still wish to see this process in action, so if I ever get the chance I would be all over it.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 11-10-2008 12:22
Thanks John!

Yes, by all what I have read by now, it were surely great to see this in action!

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-10-2008 17:16
I have some rough video from a project I was on. I'll look it up and get it to you.
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 11-12-2008 22:44
"Tampa Tank" was mentioned in Bill Bong's post above.  I believe they or rather their subsidiary Florida Structural Steel is doing a bridge project using ESW-NG, or was doing one recently.

Hg
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Electroslag-Narrow groove

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