My neighbor behind me works for a bug construction company in cleveland which does a lot of welding. he says that any welder going into the field will never get a job unless i go into pipe welding because every job including ironworkers is being replaced by robots. i stopped listening after that. he said some bullcrap and blah blah blah things. the next day, i talked to my instructor about the things my neighbor was saying. he laughed and said theres more jobs out there then he could put each and every individual student he gets in ten years.
My question is... who else thinks thats one of the biggest loads of bullcrap ever said? especially by a construction worker who has been in the field for 25 years.
thanks for reading ya'll.
Taylor,
This is not totally incorrect. Much of the pipe welding being done today is done with mechanized welding units, mainly GTAW (Tig) and GMAW (Mig). A good example is the offshore Oil & Gas industry.
Onshore, standard pipe joints of 40' are joined together into 80' lengths. The welding processes used to do this "double jointing" is a combination of mechanized Tig for the root/hot pass (when internal lineup clamps can't be used), mechanized Mig for root/hot pass (with internal lineup clamps) and mechanized submerged arc welding for the weld out.
Offshore, these double joints are joined together, on installation barge decks (5G position), to make up to hex joints (6 x 40' lengths = 240') that are then welded together in the installation phase and lowered into the water.
Be sure that the welders doing these operations are some of the best in the industry. Most are very talented manual welders that have been selected/trained to do these very demanding welds. The service requirements, including high corrosion, very large loads and severe fatigue, make the NDE acceptance criteria very strict. Coupled with the daily cost to the Oil Companies of these lay barges (which may run upwards of $750,000 to $1Million per day), only the best welders will get a chance to do this type of work.
While there will always be a place for good manual welders, more and more companies are moving to mechanized welding operations to increase production rates and lower weld reject rates. There are many training opportunities for welders wanting to move into this challenging phase of welding.
While the construction industry (structural welding) is more difficult to mechanize, there has been a steady move to semi-automatic welding processes of GMAW and FCAW. Again, the goal is higher production rates, along with trying to increase quality.
Hope this adds to your understanding of the situation.
yes i understand. but what he was saying is that they are putting robots 40 stories in the air. he says that every single job is being mechanized.
Whatever you do, do it well. Think on your feet. By the time you string your leads out, you should have a plan of attack.
Here in New England, there is seldom any automated pipe welding being done such as you mentioned Fredpoppy, so I would have to disagree with you there. There is not many straight runs which would utilize the process you mentioned. In regards to the original post.....yeah, your neighbor isn't out there in the field so whether he has all that (25 yrs) experience or not, I can tell you that there are many jobs to be had by good qualified pipe welders. The downside is, it is competitive depending on where you are and the more diversified you are the better. IF you can weld with any process (GTAW & SMAW) makes you worth more than someone who only mastered one process. IF you can fit pipe as well than you are in more demand. IF you can rig pipe or equipment than there's another feather in your bonnet.
You may have to travel tho, I mean a few hundred miles from where you live, but there IS Always work somewhere. One other thing to remember is that most contractors look for quality first, speed second. IF you have both.............you'll always have a job.
My 2 cents.
Hawk
Nickname for a lay barge is "Slave Ship" When the red light comes on, you better be through with your weld or you are chasing that weld to x-ray. 2 misses, you catch the whirlybird for land.
BABRT's
If You happen to have good [really good] mechanical reasoning You can count on being in demand on repair jobs of all kinds. These seldom lend themselves to automated or robotic processes, and knowing WHAT to do is even more important than being able to run a good bead. As Fredspoppy points out there is an increasing volume of automated and robotic welding being done. Highly qualified people are involved with the critical operations, and the volume production assembly line stuff isn't where You should want to be anyway.
bugs aren't all what there cracked up to be. the shacks are hot and smoky in the summer and cold and smoky in the winter. once the bugs come out put me on poorboy with my rig or send me home.
Truth of the matter is, there is no application except repairs that cannot be mechanized with current technology to my knowledge. Even moment connections 40 stories up. However; no matter how mechanized these jobs become, someone has to fit the thing at this point in time, someone has to program the bots, someone has to watch over them and tend them as well. An 18 year old going into welding at this current date, will not see the total mechanization of welding in their life time.
There is an inverse side to this story as well. Corporations are hell bent on mechanization in general. There will be a massive amount of pick up work because a bot cannot at this current time change it's programming to reflect conditions. If for instance, the machine is welding pipe welds, and the wrong gas is feed to it, it does not know that and just continues welding, whereas a live welder will recognize immediately there is a problem. The mars rovers have been able to do it, but only with years and years of programming and even in that, on a severely limited scale. Until the date of true artificial intelligence instead of just pantomiming it, welders will have a secure job, as will all craft. A machine just cannot think for itself, and will not be able in the near future.
One thing that is changing and will become more and more prominent, is that the days of getting out of high school and picking up a stinger and being able to make a living the rest of your life is over. An 18 year old who only does that, will not reach a full career in this day and time.
Further education is a must this day and time no matter what career path you chose. You can't even keep a job at a fast food joint without learning the automation and machinery that is continuously being changed.
Do you think most people going through Hobart will have to worry at all about where they will be placed after graduation. I am just going for 5 months for the structural program, but have been welding for 2 years.
There are more jobs than welders, and I don't see that changing in the near future. "edit" Going to any school already gives you a leg up. Further education is as I've mentioned before, not an option any more, it's an absolute necessity for welders or inspectors. Having went to a school is only the first step, the next thing is to select the right job. When you start that job, keep your mouth shut and your ears and eyes open and work hard. Learn to identify those who know what they are doing and those who do not. When you've identified the real McCoy, then it's time to open your mouth and pick their brain as much as they will allow. To be the best, you have to learn from the best and the ability to sort out the wannabe's from the real thing is a necessary job skill. Do that for the next 20 years and one day you'll find that your the one being questioned and watched. When that day comes don't forget where you came from and help the next generation along. All of which is applicable to any craft or trade.
I hear around the forum that areospace welding makes the most money, are those jobs few and far in between.That is what I would like to get into after Hobart.
Been welding 30 years, never even seen a robot welder. Seen a lot of automatic machines in the shop and some automatic TIGs in a nuke. You still have to have a human bean welder to set them up.
Robot welders are in the automotive industry, assembly line stuff.
Websters:
Main Entry: ro·bot
Pronunciation: 'rO-"bät, -b&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Czech, from robota compulsory labor; akin to Old High German arabeit trouble, Latin orbus orphaned -- more at ORPHAN
1 a : a machine that looks like a human being and performs various complex acts (as walking or talking) of a human being; also : a similar but fictional machine whose lack of capacity for human emotions is often emphasized b : an efficient insensitive person who functions automatically
2 : a device that automatically performs complicated often repetitive tasks
3 : a mechanism guided by automatic controls
Automation
Main Entry: au·to·ma·tion
Pronunciation: "o-t&-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: 1automatic
1 : the technique of making an apparatus, a process, or a system operate automatically
2 : the state of being operated automatically
3 : automatically controlled operation of an apparatus, process, or system by mechanical or electronic devices that take the place of human labor
By definition, the auto tigs, automachines that you have seen are robots.
You are right in that they require set up. I know of more than one operation that does not use welding personal to set them up either.
It's only when their are repairs to be made that the welders come into the picture.
transmission line towers, auto's, a myriad of sub-assembly manufactures, it's more prevalent than you realize.
Regards,
Gerald
our plant just bought a robot welder this last year,it takes a full time operator to keep it going,loading and unloading, programming, wire, gas and pickup! and unless you have many parts the same, its faster to weld by hand! we got ours to weld 700 power frames, that job alone paid for the bot, its definatly faster,but only if you have repetious welding!
Racer,
Having worked for the aerospace industry since the mid 1980's I can assure the aerospace welder do not make the most money.
Having said that. They can make good money, but the industry is volatile on both the private and DOD side.
It is about the cleanest welding job you might find and a tig welder gets to explore a wide range of alloys which can be fun.
The corss country pipeliners are they guys who can pull down 150K and still have 3 or 4 months off. They earn that cash by being awsome craftspersons and a rare breed that can work in some pretty unfavorable conditions.
So what are you saying guys in aerospace welding bring home each year? I'm not looking for 150k (granted that would be amazing) but if I can make 60-80k a year after being in the game for a while and having some overtime, I am fine with that. I want to be the best welder and the highest paid, I've worked very hard so far in highschool vocation welding and plan to take the advice a lot of guys say, "Shut your mouth and open your ears". I do that in every job situation, I want to learn the most.
It's really a pretty broad range.
Anyplace between $15 to $30 per hour I suppose... The major airlines still do some in house repairs on engines so welders will always be required... But the unions have been trampled down so badly...(Teamsters, IAM and AMFA) that the progression for even a journeyman to reach the top is 5-10 years.
Builders... Boeing, Rayethon etc pay well but job security is suspect. But hey, I suppose nobody can promise a real long term job anymore.
Subcontractors in both repair and fabrication are a mixed bag of union and mostly non-union with an equally mixed bag of compensation packages.
Lawrence is right about the industry being volatile....Raytheon has some good jobs but how long will they last? Its hard to say. However they do promote intercompany transfers well (this contract is over-transfer to this facility and contract). The private jet industry is in a large upswing right now...there are jobs to be had there in welding, sheetmetal, avionics etc. The pay is not the best you can make welding but the working conditions would be hard if not impossible to beat. I can see myself doing this work in my sixties without any trouble easily. I am pulling between $45-50k depending on bonuses and amount of work (which is very good pay for my neck of the woods), but at the same time I have outstanding insurance and benefits. There are better paying jobs but I do not want to relocate right now.
One thing about aerospace tho is it can give you a good look at some other well paying crafts and sometimes the opportunity to move into them (like getting the company to pay for your A+P license). Bottom line is the more crafts you are skilled at the better your job security with any company..or the easier it will be to get one of those coveted cushy welding slots. All of the big aerospace companies have direct recruiting websites....if you are interested sign up on them. Check with
Boeing
Raytheon
Falcon
Gulfstream
Bombardier
Lockheed (notorious for layoffs)
Hawker Beechcraft
G.E.
and many others
Good luck
As a percentage there is very little automation being used in the pipe fabrication industry and the reasons are many.
Variance in pipe manufacturing tolerances (out of roundness-as much as an inch for large bore piping, and wall thickness- +/- 12% from nominal, etc) do not lend themselves to robotics easily. Then there are gapping accuracy issues. landing accuracy issues, etc. The number of programs for a robot will proliferate very quickly. Inthe research tha a compnay i worked for did we had over 2000 programs and still were not accomodating all the possible situaitons encountered. And this just with scheduled piping, not to mention ID/min wall piping.
There are two solutions, each of which has huge difficulties of their own.
First is purchasing pipe with reduced tolerances. However, you will pay much more for the product and you will have to wait much longer for delivery. Some alloys may already take as much as a year to be delivered. This is certainly not the way to go with these alloys. And given that material will be approximately 80% of any pipe fabrication cost, the productivity gains will need to be enormously significant to counterbalance material costs.
Second is vision systems. This is the ultimate solution, and getting better all the time, though it is prohibitively expensive, and in my opinion porobably not robust enough as yet to hold up under tough fab conditions. However this is changing.
The applicability of automation for pipe applications will run parallel to advances in vision technology.
Racer, I work at Boeing in long beach ca. I dont weld here but have worked here since 1986 and know all the welders real good.They only do tooling here and no production parts as this is final assembly only,but, I know that they make $33.00 an hour or so and get as much overtime as they want.They are sometimes very busy and other times not doing much for weeks at a time.The reason they get overtime is that they have to work on the production tooling/jigs etc. on holidays and sundays when the rivet pounders are at home.The average pay here for most hourly jobs is $60,000 t0 80,000 a year.It is indeed a volitale situation though.I will say that I know for fact that they are looking for both production and tooling welders up in Renton and Seatle Washington.That program seems to be pretty stable for the next 20 years or so.Gary,....
Your teacher is right and your neighbor is full of B.S. I'd like to see em put a robot in some of the places i've been. Your in the right field and just remember that the demand for welders is only getting higher and higher. Yeah you might need to learn some spanish here before too long, but there will allways be a demand for people welders. Robots aren't cost effective for most applications out in the field and will probably break after being out in the elements and from banging off the beams while the rig hoists it up in 15mph winds. Stick with it kid, there is a ton of money to be made out there in welding.
Thank you Tommy and Molten for the information. The only problem I have is I can't really find any jobs on the aircraft websites I looked up for jobs. But I definitely wouldn't mind relocating for that kind of money. Hopefully I can get into a place like that after this summer at Hobart.
By Tommyjoking 
Date 05-31-2007 08:17
Edited 05-31-2007 08:56
