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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / fema 353
- - By mountainman (***) Date 06-12-2007 21:49
hello, does anyone have any experience using fema 353 specs on in shop fab and weld. i have a job that specs it out so i am studying it currently, question is, is there stuff in here that someone may have missed and it came around and bit them, any advice from previous experience would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
jj
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 06-12-2007 22:02
all of my jobs also had 3rd party inspectors. with qa and qc it hard to miss things. most thing typicaly missed or overlooked can be easily brought into code compliance. what type of job are you working on?
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 06-12-2007 22:18
it is a single story commercial bldng, single line moment frame, i just like being proactive at things, but new stuff always makes me a little nervous until i get familiar with things.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-13-2007 11:02
My experience with FEMA is that you need to get all of the specifics ironed out early on in the bid process so that you can cover yourself and put enough money in the job to do it as specified. Find out exactly how much of the FEMA guidelines that they want you to follow. These are just guidelines. Some engineers just like to say that their building is built per the FEMA guidelines and only ask for a few rules to be followed while others want it followed to the letter. If you need to follow it to the letter be prepared for special electrode storage and exposure limits....this includes rod ovens for the FCAW wire and the exposure of the electrode is accumulative, so it adds up and if the roll of wire is not completely consumed within those limits, the remainder cannot be used on that job. If you get all the specifics ironed out early, the job can be done and managed, if not, it can be you worst nightmare. I remember the first job we did per FEMA and the erector on that job went belly up because he didn't realize what all FEMA was about, and our people here had an eye opening experience also when I brought out those yellow books and started quoting some of the requirements which they had not considered when they bid the job.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-13-2007 13:42
If I may add a little to Johns excellent explanation, his 'upfront' advice is well considered. Often, FEMA recommendations are speced by people who have no real idea of many of the FEMA specifics themselves. All they've done is read some industry literature (often very little at that) and think its a good idea.
This upfront consideration will go a long way towards not only making sure you're covered, but helping them understand just exactly what it is they have speced.
Its possible that once you clarify, they may not wish to pay for it.
Parent - - By mountainman (***) Date 06-13-2007 15:00
wonderful insight on this subject, thanks for replying, it does help me out quite a bit. unfortunately (for me) the job is in my lap as of this morning. so i think i will take your advice and quickly ask the questions as to exactly what specific rules are to be followed, or if it is to be followed to the word(i hope not). then get a good grasp of it myself, so i can relay all the different little nick-nack stuff that we have not really experienced before to the shop personnell in a manner in which they understand and execute successfully. for some unexplainable reason i was the first to notice that this was spec'd, so ofcourse i will have to somehow make this work without the time and money in the job to do so.

thanks
jj
Parent - By Bob Garner (***) Date 06-13-2007 15:27
Good advice from all!  Watch for the Charpy requirements.  Sometimes these aren't clear.  If this is a building code job, and depending what state you are bulding in, the Engineer of Record may have to provide "structural observation", which is little more than looking over the work for conformance with the design intent.  Here in SoCal, we typically have pre-fabrication meetings with the fabricator to make sure eveyone (including the engineer) is in agreement with what the work requirements are - this is a good idea if you can do this.  Will there be a "special inspection" agency?  Get to know them, too.

Have fun (I like building projects).

Bob Garner
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-13-2007 15:30
Since you have the job, get an answer about welder qualification, so you can test your welders before the job hits the shop. Also be aware that there is a special welder's performance test which differs from the usual D1.1...
...see FEMA 353 Part I:B-1 and Figure B-1
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 06-13-2007 15:51
yes, i seethat in appendix b, man o man, there's not gonna be enough hours in the days yet to come.

thanks, ( it is exciting!)
jj
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 06-13-2007 15:58
Correct me if I am wrong, but for the fabricator, the only time these new welder quals come into play is when there are CJP moment shop welds that are part of the SLRS.  In my limited experience so far, this is not nearly as common as it will be for erectors. 

And as far as the FCAW wire is concerned, the major FCAW wire vendors all can provide certs stating their wire meets the requirements and tests results for at least 30 days exposure so ovens really are not an issue either.  Likewise they can provide certs for charpy test results also.  So much of it is not a real big impact except to cover yourself with a different paperwork trail.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 06-13-2007 17:56
you will sometimes be required to qual your welders to a local municipalities requirements. the main requirement i see is that welders will need to certify yearly.
Parent - - By Bob Garner (***) Date 06-13-2007 18:10
I think thcqci is right about the fema requirements pertaining to welded moment connections that are part of the Seismic Lateral Resisting System only, and likely these are field-welded by the erector.  Anyway, the engineer is required to identify the SLRS on the drawings (Per AISC Seismic Manual).

Keep us informed, this sounds interesting.

Bob
Parent - - By mountainman (***) Date 06-13-2007 19:23
i can't find the verbage that reinforces that, however the qual test assembly looks to me to be for the purpose of beam flange to column flange situations. i do have continuity plates that will be cjp in shop, i just can't figure out if the shop welders for those will be required to take the qual test.

jj
Parent - - By Bob Garner (***) Date 06-13-2007 19:41
FEMA 353 Supplemental Welding Requirements, Section 3.3.1.1

Bob
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-13-2007 19:49
Bob,
That section reads like all welders performing work on SWD Cats A and B are required to test, not just the field guys performing the beam to column welds.

Do you read it that way too?
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 06-14-2007 11:49
John, after re-reading the text in FEMA, I agree.  If FEMA is referenced as the REQUIRED specification, then it does not leave room to avoid certifying those welders.  If however, AWS D1.8 is the governing document, C1. is more relaxed, requiring special certification of welders for only those:

"... welders who will perform production welding on Demand Critical beam bottom flange to column joints, where such welds must be performed by welding through a weld access hole. ..."

I remembered this and that was the basis for my comments above.  So all that said, this further backs up what I said earlier that the SER really needs to assure more info is on fabrication drawings instead of making a job a blanket "seismic".  Each weld should have a designation, such as BM/L, as found in FEMA 353 Tables 5.X, and described in 1.3.18.  I am reviewing a spec now for a Navy job in FL where the notes say the whole job is Catagory B.  In Florida!  I know there are seismic zones everywhere and I know there are wind load requirements to consider also, but me thinks perhaps an engineer is acting lazy or uninformed.  The education continues.
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 06-14-2007 15:47 Edited 06-14-2007 21:42
It occured to me while working on the shop floor this morning why I may have not remembered needing welders certified for most seismic jobs other than as I stated above.  My brain must have had some of its sectors overwritten because the obvious issue did not even occur to me.  At lunch, I went back and verified that the title of FEMA 353 is Recommended Specifications and Quality Assurance Guidelines of Steel MOMENT-FRAME Construction for Seismic Applications.  The key words being MOMENT-FRAME.  If the work you are doing is not moment frame, then the invoking of 353 are not really applicable and is overkill and economically burdensome, IMHO.

Edit:  Well, I looked back to see that your building is a moment frame so, if you are in Category A or B welds, and the SER so invokes, you will need to certify your welders to the special requirments.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-14-2007 17:01
Whoa...stop the presses.

Back up, let's look at this again.

Speaking of the "Shop welded" connections.....only.

Let's look at Part I Section 3. Execution

3.1 Fabrication...then turn the page to 3.1.3 Welded Construction(look at the second paragraph)

Now turn over to the Scope of Appendix B

.....this seems to specify only the welders performing the critical welds in the moment frame.
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 06-14-2007 18:55
i agree with that, i think it must just take a little time consistently reviewing different specs to get good at the hopscotch of finding specific answers to the questions. i will definitealy keep at it, again thanks for helping out.

regards
jj
Parent - - By thcqci (***) Date 06-14-2007 21:39
If you mean a welder needs additional testing if:

1)  a welder is to deposit welds that are to be in a part of the moment frame in the SLRS and are "...classified as Seismic Weld Demand Catagories A or B..." as stated in F353, 3.3.1.1, and,

2)  all other welders depositing welds in less critical catagories "...shall be qualified in accordance with AWS D1.1, Section 4, A & C. ...", as stated in F353, 3.1.3, para 2,

then I agree.  As can be seen in Table 5-1, there are still a lot of welds that could require supplemental welder certification testing, if the SER does not waive it.

AWS D1.8 has a somewhat different set of requirements though.  It is only concerned with one basic situation to require additional testing.  It says:

"5.1.1 Required tests.  In addition to the requirements of AWS D1.1, Clause 4, welders shall pass the Supplemental Welder Qualification for Restricted Access Welding as prescribed in Annex C, when the welder is required to make welds meeting all the following requirements: (1) The weld is Demand Critical., (2) The weld joins the bottom beam flange to a column flange., (3) The weld must be made by welding through a beam web weld access hole."  and,

Annex C "This annex provides supplemental welder qualification testing procedures for welders who will perform production welding on Demand Critical beam bottom flange to column joints, where such welds must be performed by welding through a weld access hole.  ... "
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 06-14-2007 22:26
exactly, thanks for taking the time to be concise and detailed.

your my hero, (John too)
jj
Parent - - By mountainman (***) Date 06-13-2007 20:10
found it, thankyou. after reading it i believe i have to qual the in shop welders, due to our structure being a SWDC B.

thanks a bunch
jj
Parent - - By cwi-cws (*) Date 06-15-2007 00:45
mountainman, here is a good example for you. we use fcaw in shop and our welders qual. with a36 backing ,d1.1 states backing can be from a variaty of material and only the omission of backing requires requal.BUT, FEMA states that you must requal. if you change backing material , ex. a36 to ceramic backing. we also had to use fcaw with sealed packages with very low diffusable hydrogen! p.s. if you can avoid any cjp welds on the doubler plates to the web or "k" it would be wise!, if you dont agree please let me know. i hope this is helpful.
Parent - - By mountainman (***) Date 06-15-2007 16:47
yes, i agree with the fema requirement that if backing is changed than a reqaul is needed. fortunately due to the thickness of the members we do not have to use doubler plates. thanks for your help and example.

regards,
jj
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 06-15-2007 18:28
also you will have moment connections that are not part of the moment frame. two different inspection criteria
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / fema 353

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