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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / aluminum boat scag
- - By bodyman (*) Date 06-24-2007 03:50
I'm welding a damaged aluminum boat scag tig. I'll be using my 200DX Miller. When I use 4340 I tend to get a little silica grain in my weld. Any suggestion on any other  rod good for this application. Thanks, Bodyman
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-24-2007 05:05
Reduce your balence control setting (more EP) and the grain will leave and the weld will shine.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 06-24-2007 09:23
4340?      4043 is a very applicable rod for aluminum boat repair....most hulls, ribs ect. are made from 5052. 
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 06-24-2007 11:35
Wouldn't 5356 be a better choice for 5052?  I thought the 5xxx series gave better corrosion resistance than the 4xxx series.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-25-2007 02:45
I go along with Devo on the filler choice if the material is 5xxx or similar AlMag comonly used on marine parts.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 06-25-2007 07:06
It does Devo...  The 4043 is a bit cheaper and is what almost all the boat manufactures use.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-25-2007 15:29 Edited 06-25-2007 16:24
Hi Tommyjoking!

I respectfully have to disagree with your presumption that most aluminum boat manufacturers use 4043 filler on 5XXX series aluminum because of costs savings... If they did we'd have alot of litigation going on involving the manufacturers and their customers with respect to the weld cracking issues alone notwithstanding all of the other issues that would arise as a result.

Here's a .pdf you'll find interesting:
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/techknowledge/aluminum-filler-alloy-selection.cfm
Here's an excerpt:
"The high purity 1000 Series Alloys and Alloy 3003 are easy to weld with 1100 or 4043 filler alloys. High purity alloys can be welded with base alloy filler if desired. Alloys possessing from 1% to 2.5% magnesium, such as 3004 and "5052", are very sensitive to cracking when using base alloy filler. Alloys with 3.5% magnesium and more exhibit low sensitivity to weld cracking. The use of a 5% magnesium content filler, such as "5356, to weld 5052" can provide a higher magnesium percentage in the diluted weld metal and reduce sensitivity to weld cracking. The more magnesium an aluminum magnesium alloy contains, the less likely it is to crack; thus, the high magnesium content fillers "5356, 5183, and 5556" are commonly used to weld both wrought and cast aluminum magnesium base alloys."

Here's more on the subject that might just "muddy" the debate a bit:
"Magnesium in aluminum from 0.5 up to 3.0%, produces a weld metal composition that is crack sensitive and should be avoided. Another issue relating to the aluminum magnesium base alloys, which is not directly related to the crack sensitivity chart, but is a very important factor, must be addressed. As a rule, the Al - Mg base alloys with less than 2.8% Mg content can be welded with either the Al - Si (4xxx series) or the Al - Mg (5xxx series) filler alloys dependent on weld performance requirements. The Al - Mg base alloys with more than about 2.8% Mg typically cannot be successfully welded with the Al - Si (4xxx series) filler alloys. This is due to a eutectic problem associated with excessive amounts of magnesium silicide (Mg2Si) developing in the weld structure, decreasing ductility and increasing crack sensitivity."

Important factors to consider:
"Strength of the Weld - This rating is based on the ability of the filler alloy to meet or exceed the strength of the as-welded joint. Most often with aluminum the heat affected zone (HAZ) of a groove weld dictates the strength of the joint, and often many filler alloys can satisfy this strength requirement. Unlike groove welds, the joint strength of fillet welds is based on shear strength that can be affected considerably by filler alloy selection. Fillet weld strength is largely dependent on the composition of the filler alloy used to weld the joint. Typically, the 4xxx series filler alloys have lower ductility and provide less shear strength in fillet joints. The 5xxx series fillers typically have more ductility and can provide close to twice the shear strength of a 4xxx series filler alloy in some circumstances."

"Corrosion Resistance - Most unprotected aluminum base alloy filler alloy combinations are quite satisfactory for general exposure to the atmosphere. In cases where a dissimilar aluminum alloy combination of base and filler is used, and electrolyte is present, it is possible to set up a galvanic action between the dissimilar compositions. Corrosion resistance can be a complex subject when looking at service in specialized highly corrosive environments and may necessitate consultation with engineers within this specialized field."

Here's Alcotec's Technical Knowledge web page that offers a wealth of info regarding Aluminum:
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/techknowledge/index.cfm

Here's another one that is also helpful.
http://www.aluminum.org/Content/NavigationMenu/The_Industry/Technology_Resources/Technology_Articles/applications.pdf

I hope these are useful to anyone concerned.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 06-25-2007 17:57 Edited 06-25-2007 18:33
I did stick my foot in my mouth...5052  is used but 5005 is probably way more prevalent as a material at least in small boats.

Henry I do not disagree at all that the 5356 would be a better filler....As far as 4043 being used because it is cheaper that is a presumption on my part.  What is not a presumption is it being used widely...at least on small fishing boats.  I worked in that industry for five years full time for two and part time for many others and all of them used the 4043.  Thats what I based my answer from.  Now I doubt that my experience reflects the whole industry and certainly is not related to any 60ft+ ocean going vessels whatsoever.  For the most part just fresh water small bass boats and such.  For that application I did not see any problems crop up with how it was done. 

I like threads like this because I allways end up learning somthing from it.   I wonder what long term behaviors if any 4043 on 5052 does in high temp applications where the part is subjected to rapid cooling and heating.

It is a bit of a hazy subject on those fillers and metal combinations  but in the end the 5356 is a can't go wrong choice.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-25-2007 19:42 Edited 06-25-2007 19:45
Hi Tommyjoking!
Thank you for your reply and your agreement that none of this advice is absolute ;)
Remain teachable is what I say so, you've got the right atitude which is the same that I strive for!!!

Now regarding your question with regards to "what long term behaviors if any, 4043 on 5052 does in high temperature applications where the part is subjected to rapid cooling and heating."
First of all, I'm no Aluminum expert myself... I've only welded quite a few different grades such as 1xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx, 6xxx, and 7xxx for a variety of applications... As far as expert knowledge is concerned, I refer to Tony Anderson of AlcoTec and the Aluminum Association for their combined expertise.

One can certainly get some clues based from the links I posted in the previous post although, specifically I would say that the differences in each alloy's chemical composition will determine the type of segragation within the crystal lattice that may occur due to thermal cycling over time. Another factor to consider is the methods used in controlling the amount of dilution that occurs in the welds when using a 4043 filler to coalesce with a 5052 BM, and then one has to watch out for certain types of eutectics forming that may encourage cracking. The bottom line I would suggest is to ask Tony Anderson himself! I'm sure that you would get an excellent response and then you could post it here for all of us to review ;) His e-mail address is at the bottom of this link:
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/Should-I-use-4043-or-5356-filler-alloy.cfm

Please let us know what his response is to your query above! Always a pleasure!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-26-2007 03:45 Edited 06-26-2007 03:48
5005 & 5052 might be common in small boats, but from what little I know 5083 & 5086 are pretty common for hull & deck plating in yacht building. If You need to do anything on a larger aluminum boat this may be worth consideration.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 06-27-2007 07:53
Here ya go Henry!

"You have presented me with some very good questions.
You are quite correct in that both 4043 and 5356 are suitable filler alloys for welding 5052 base material. Also, you are correct in that it is all to do with service life in particular conditions.

There are many aluminum base alloys that can be welded with more than one filler alloy.  The secret is to always choose the best filler alloy for the specific application.  In your example it is quite clear to me why you are using the 4043 and not the 5356 filler alloy.
The 4043 filler is aluminum with 5% silicon added and the 5356 is aluminum with 5 % magnesium added.  The use of aluminum with more than 3% magnesium at temperatures above 150 deg F. is not recommended as the material can degrade over time and fail in service.
I have attached a couple of articles on this subject that you may find interesting."

That info can be found at the alotec site as well.   Mr. Anderson seems to be a very nice bloke and he sure responded quickly.  I was more detailed about my question to him than I posted here and from reading the articles that you already posted I had a pretty good idea of why this process was being used in our shop on a particuler component.  At any rate I learned somthing in all of it that will prove usefull in the future.

Thx
REgards
Tommy
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-29-2007 13:05
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 06-29-2007 13:21
Henry,

this makes me loving the forum!

You all are... GREAT!

Only the best to you and everyone,
Stephan
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 06-29-2007 18:26
Thx Henry

Already printed ....I am gonna post this on our supply lockers.

Yall have a good safe holiday

Best regards
Tommy
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 07-05-2007 15:11 Edited 07-05-2007 15:16
Having built a few of boats , 5356 is the wire we used most commonly for hull plates etc.  we we're using some 5086 material but did not change the filler wire for the most part. I cannot speak as to the validity of this process as the builder would not entertain the ideal of qualifying the welding procedures etc something to do with the cost I'm sure. That was a good post Henry thanks for the info.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / aluminum boat scag

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