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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / AWS Learning & Education / training welders in virtual reality .?.
- - By Rothstein Date 07-06-2007 03:28
When I was looking on the web for training schools. I came across a video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTsJdzSmLos. It seems to be a VR training simulator, for welding. Is this for real??? Has anyone else heard about this or tried it. I'm interested in seeing how it works.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-06-2007 21:23
There is  company in New Britain, Connecticut (OK, it could be Rocky Hill just as well), that make  computerized training simulator.

Our section had  tour of their facility. Unfortunately I was on the road and couldn't make the tour.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By fbrieden (***) Date 07-07-2007 01:24
I'm sorry... being taken by the hand and shown all the proper geometries, in relation to a particular joint,  is the only way to learn how to weld! Once these basic skills are learned, they can be modified to any welding process. 
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-07-2007 03:19 Edited 07-07-2007 04:21
Hi Rothstein!

First of all "Weldcome" to the forum!!! ;)

There is a system already being used by General Dynamics Electric Boat Division as is the US army @ the Aberdeen Proving Grounds...

Here's some links:

http://www.sgi.com/company_info/newsroom/press_releases/2005/april/vrsim.html
http://www.simwelder.com/index.html
http://www.sgi.com/pdfs/3714.pdf
http://www.simwelder.com/docs/summaryreport.pdf
http://www.onr.navy.mil/media/extra/fact_sheets/0705_virtual_reality_welder_training.pdf
http://www.eweek.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=25932&a=208357&po=5,00.asp
http://nnapprentice.com/sname/letter/Virtual%20Reality%20Welder%20Training.pdf
http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Shop/ProductsDisplay/VRInterface.php?ID=16
http://www.alaska.edu/swacad/wp/docs/NewTechnology.pdf
http://www.cvtc.edu/Apps/News/news.asp?Article=222&y=2006

Here's a community college that's using the VRSim system as part of their overall training... In other words fbreiden, using the system as part of an arsenal of tools to use in training students how to weld better... Embrace technology is what I say as long as it is helpful towards achieving the ultimate goal/objective:
http://www.tncc.edu/wtce/welding_flier_12-06.pdf

I like these folks:
http://www.jcvr.org/index.php
http://www.jcvr.org/products/products_immersive_simulation.php

Here's the French system:
http://wave.c-s.fr/
http://istresults.cordis.lu/index.cfm/section/news/tpl/article/BrowsingType/Features/ID/69636

This one is from the Temple University website referring to the CS Wave system... Did'nt you go to Temple fbreiden?:
http://www.temple.edu/ispr/examples/ex04_08_27.html
http://trolltech.com/customers/casestories/stories/cs-wave
http://dsd.sztaki.hu/conferences/eutistami/eloadasok/wave_2004_02_09.pdf

Here's a Canadian system that seems like something most schools could adapt to more easily at least from an economic standpoint, and is the only one I noticed that offers GTAW in the 1F position with the ARC+ welding simulator system:
http://www.123arc.com/en/
https://www.123arc.com/en/ARC.htm
http://www.123certification.com/depliant/tous/ENG_depliant.pdf
https://www.123arc.com/en/eduwelding.htm
http://www.123arc.com/en/eduwelding_plus.htm

Here some more interesting articles:
http://www.dm-dh.com/FichiersPdf/2002_Mellet-dHuart@SanSebastian_ITS.pdf
http://www.dm-dh.com/FichiersPdf/2001_Mellet-dHuart@Vienna_NTCS.pdf
http://www.deed.state.mn.us/news/release/2004/wd02Sep04.htm
http://www.isense.com/markets.aspx?id=147&
http://www.isense.com/news.aspx?id=177&
http://www.actapress.com/PaperInfo.aspx?PaperID=27985

I do'nt know about anyone else but, if I were an educational facility that is seeking to reduce consumables and operational costs so that the bottom line for the institution improves, or the purchase of these systems will in the long term improve overall operational costs so that an institution can remain in the black so to speak, or justify it's own self sufficiency, then this is the future and it is now!!! Of course, the addition of solar power and wind turbine generation will also cut costs, but the combination of the three cost cutting systems will dramatically improve one's bottom line and justify continuing a facility that's being considered for closing to the powers that be... Especially if grant money can be secured to implement these systems into the educational sysytem -  IMHO... ;)
There's a ton of info on google so have fun discovering more!!! Hope this helps ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 07-08-2007 16:00
Henry,

Thank's for the information! Yes, I went to Temple, but at the time there were no programs such as the ones indicated, in place.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-09-2007 20:17
Your "Weldcome"  Fbrieden ;) ;) ;)
Anytime I can be of assistance, please do not hesitate to ask me as I know that you would reciprocate with the same. All the best to you and your students !!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-08-2007 19:55
Henry

This has to be the Forum record for hot-links!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-09-2007 20:14
I do'nt think so but, thanks for the compliment!!! ;)

You should go back in the forum and look at some of the ones that Lawrence and myself have posted in the past!!! ;) Stephan is also an excellent contributor as are many others here!!!

Sincerely,
Henry
Parent - By Rothstein Date 07-09-2007 16:45 Edited 07-09-2007 16:49
Great job ssbn727, for the links.
I've recently emailed VR Sim for a demo. It seems they have demos each month. If your in the area of New Britain, CT, and willing to take a day off of work, go see it. Please post your review of the system, I would love to hear how it performs. ALSO, if your able to travel to FabTech this year, they will have Sim Welder on display, and you would be able to use it. So, I'm already thinking about going.

I believe this system would be great for tech schools and large companies who train 100 or so welders a month. I could see this product helping brand new students, work on getting correct weld angles, position and that steady hand for welding. 
Parent - By ldadalto Date 07-19-2007 09:24
Hi all !

I am indeed in charge of the CS WAVE system.
We will be also on FABTECH in Chicago this year (booth #37061).

CS WAVE is not really a welding simulator (like SimWelder or ARC+). This is more a virtual reality tool built by the welding trainer to help the beginners in learning the good welding motion.
The trainer can define the appropriate motion (speed, distance, angle, and trajectory) and the trainees has to be able to mimic it in a progressive learning environment.

I hope we will see some of you in Chicago and be able to discuss more about that.

Today, CS WAVE is used in Japan, Turkey, Hungary and France. Something like one hundred of training centers are equipped.
Australia, Asia and Africa are starting to build their reselling network.
We will meet some potential reseller in September in NY to demonstrate the product and try to be able to offer the best services to the US market at FABTECH 2007 !

Do not hesitate to contact me for any further information.

Sincerely,

Laurent
Parent - By hlaser Date 12-19-2007 01:16
actually the system being used by the Thomas Nelson Community College ( http://www.tncc.edu/wtce/welding_flier_12-06.pdf ) is not VRSim. It is a virtual welding lab from a company called asciencetutor ( http://www.asciencetutor.com/VWL.htm ). They have some videos that show how the system works on their website.

Best regards.
Parent - By Rothstein Date 07-10-2007 13:00
I also stumbled on another Sim Welder video performing SMAW, on YouTube.com. Very neat how they have implimented a stick device.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moAabTTwy3A
Parent - By Army NCO Date 09-06-2007 04:21
I am the Virtual Reality Welding Instructor for the Army at APG and will try to answer any questions you have and yes it is true.  I have eight working stations and an Instructor console.
Parent - - By jonesje1 Date 06-26-2008 02:13
Hello everyone:

The National Shipbuilding Research Program has issued a contract to Bender Shipbuilding and Repair, together with N. A. Tech. Inc. to develop a low cost virtual reality welder training system.  The project has just recently started and will take advantage of the real-time 3D weld software that N. A. Tech. developed and uses for weld modeling and real-time weld monitoring.  N. A. Tech. has a proprietary neural network software technology developed specifically for weld modeling and it's NAMeS weld measurement software which is used in 200 installations in 7 countries as the core of many weld quality control and six sigma programs.  NAMeS and the new Virtual Welding technology already have hundreds of weld measurement specifications included, so that welders will be able to train to the specifications of their particular employer or industry -- including compatibility with the AWS D1.x standards.  Periodic updates will be posted on the NSRP website as the project progresses, and you are welcome to contact me about the project.

The project team at N. A. Tech. would welcome comments and suggestions from interested parties as the project proceeds.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2008 02:34
So will the individual simulator cost less than a welding machine ? That would be quite a suprise if it did.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 06-26-2008 14:07
I would be interested in that too, but the even a higher upfront cost would be offset overtime by the complete lack of consumables cost, not to mention the metrics and such to help point out to students how to achieve the proper movement and mechanics of welding
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2008 17:53
You may be right. But with technology there are added costs. Tech support people, software/hardware errors, cost of new technology that prohibits everone but the largest companies from using it.

The feedback may very well be of value but for whom ? After a period of time you could have data such as what age group has the best hand eye coordination, whose learning curve is steepest, and who know what else.

But what advantage does the system give to someone who is learning to weld? Will it reduce the actual hands on time (simulator or stinger)? Maybe it will if there is real time feedback to the welder. JUst like when I watch and tell them the arc is too long, pause longer on the sides, get more comfortable, clean your lens, your ground is loose and getting hot, stop when you are uncomfortable ...

I'm excited about the concept. I just hope it makes it to the rest of the world before its too late. Is it going to attract welders to the trade or will it give other countries another way to train welders that are interested in the trade to become empployed in jobs that we are no longer interested in. Will the technology be for use only in some "Degree Program" that takes two years to complete and costs $400.00 for a course on how to make a flat and horizontal fillet weld with a 6010 and 7018.

I just think welding training lies more in motivation than innovation. Of course that is a view out of a million. How much more efficient are we today with computers in every office and the ability to work from home than people were 35 years ago.

Of course with that being said about technology :) . I am actually in process developing a website for welder training to assist with some of the non-hands on time. It will be part of learnaboutwelding.com and a few more late nights and I will have some basic structure laid out. It will take a long time to get filled with info.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2008 18:37
Single UNIT SMAW machine from one of the companies that makes these . $55k . Just got off the phone with em.

For 54.9 K you can bring your CC power source to my carport and I will come out there every 15 minutes to give you feedback.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 06-26-2008 19:00
http://www.thefabricator.com/ArcWelding/ArcWelding_Article.cfm?ID=1878  the fabricator has a good article on the topic, go and look at figure 6  the metrics give you a good way to see where you were and when etc.
I think the point of the VR is to shorten the learning curve really. An experienced instructor like you may be able to tell a student, this is wrong that is wrong just by looking at the weld or watching over the shoulder, but I think sometimes students have a hard time with the correlation and coordination to look at a puddle and see that they need to up their torch angle by 10 degrees. I remember my own aha moments as a student when I realized changing something like torch angle or voltage could change something else like penetration.

It's pricey but apparently people using them seem pretty happy. Also beginners are the ones who really burn through material. It looks like at most this is just a speed enhancer or a way to accurately measure and get feedback on welding motion.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-26-2008 20:14
It's a good idea with plenty of room to grow as far as applications.

It works.. This has been proven already.  Emperical evidence and statistics are available.

But the only folks who can afford it right now are government subsidized projects like the Naval Joining Center, Govermnemt contractors and Prisons...

Even if they could produce virtual workstations at $5,000 a piece, they would not be affordable for high schools or colleges.

Having just one virtual simulator serves no purpose unless your program is designed to train workers one at a time.  The real value lies in the simulators ability to bring a *group* up to a measurable level of proficiency in things like torch/rod angle, straight tracking of beads and travel speed.  When that predetermined proficiency level is reached the learners may proceed to hotwork and reduce costs and the learning curve significantly. They do a very good job with this.

When a block of 10 virtual welding workstations can be purchased for 5K  I'll start paying attention again.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2008 20:49
Maybe we need a welding video game ? Maybe the people at WII can do something.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 06-27-2008 13:22
I would think at around $5,000 it would roughly be the same price as a decent TIG or MIG welder, every school is different but the welders at my old school were definately more than 5,000.   This system is probably expensive due to it's infancy but I would expect the prices to come way down if this technology establishes itself as a viable tool. I mean nasa uses VR to train astronauts and I'm sure it's harder to fly the challen...er ...columb...er endeavour than it is to run a 6010 bead. likewise surgeon cut their teeth on virtual patients, so the merits of using VR to train motor skills isn't unreasoanble.  I could see a $5,000 system outlaying it's cost over the course of a year or so if used for beginnners.

interesting but it probably needs more time
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-27-2008 16:44
The equipment at $5000.00 would be a good deal if it worked well. For SMAW and GTAW other than ACHF a machine can be purchased for arount $2000.00 with a Tig Rig and flowmeter. No remote amperage or ACHF.

A couple thousand more and you get multiprocess with ACHF or Square Wave, CV mode and a wire feeder.

Pushing a 3/32" thick flat washer across a table with a pencil held in a pair of pliers develops some motor skills. Use a sharpened pencil, tape some white paper to the table. Every time there is a mark on the paper, the arc was too short, if the washer stops and the pencil keeps going, the arc was too long.

I will be selling that system online for $29.95. Support will be an additional 2000 per month :) .

The optional instant feedback system is an additional 200 per month. You supply the webcam and I will watch what happens.

Another neat thing about welding machines is the fact that "YOU CAN MAKE STUFF" with them. A neat feature in my opinion.

Contact me if you need my paypal address for the "Advanced Welder Simulated Household Instructional Training" system.

I may make it to the show this year and hopefully test one out.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2008 20:45
Some of the systems look pretty good. Some not so cool. I guess I would have to see some in process. Id love to make it to check it out at the welding show but my last trip to Vegas lead me to believe that was a waste of a perfectly good sand mine!

I think the technology is great but will it reach a practical level of availability.  Can it really be worth $55k. In my opinion, the equipment would have to be extremely reliable and adaptable. One of the systems shown in a vide has a contraption that looks nothing loke a stinger and the video shows what appears to be a 1/4" arc length.

Has anyone here that is a welder ever used one?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-26-2008 22:03
Gerald,

I used one for about an hour at the last Expo in Chicago, I enjoyed the experience and really saw promise.

Things like arc length can be adjusted.  What the thing does is track what the operator is doing and record it. It can show real time variations from what the preset (correct) parameters are and what the learner is actually doing. It can then replay or form a report.  Good stuff.

Good stuff. 

I remember paying several hundred dollars once for 8 megs of ram... In time some things become affordable.

Unlike the ram, I feel I can wait for this one.  :)
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 06-26-2008 14:22
You'd save hella cash on gas, filler rods, consumables, and material.   I'll have to try it out at Fabtech this year, but i'm sure the line will be a mile long.  I'll have to hit them up during set up or tear down.
Parent - - By juve11 (*) Date 06-27-2008 03:37
the only way you can is by actually doing it with real metal, sparks and getting the feel. thats when you learn add more heat, less heat , more metal, less metal. can teh steel youre welding take the heat your putting into it.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 06-27-2008 12:35
Yeah I went trap shootin with a bunch of guys from Miller last night and I brought up the whole virtual reality thing to see what they had to say.  Apparently they have one at Miller and they all told me that it sucks.  They all agreed that the only way your really going to get a good feel for welding is by hood time with a real arc.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-27-2008 16:52
I think if they try my "Advanced Welder Simulated Household Instructional Training" system they will be pleased. The entire system is energy star compliant and should not affect the current rate of global warming. The opposite end of the pencil can be used to erase the paper and start again, thereby conserving paper. Of course the increased CO2 generated by the operator coould kill us all.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 06-27-2008 17:26
Good one Gerald.  My highschool welding teacher used to make us practice with a #2 on some cellulos for oxy fuel welding.;-) We had to lap our stringers and everything, then we even had to turn them in.  When we talked in class we had to fill a whole sheet front and back before we could weld again.  It didn't hurt my skills any, but it sure made for some good hand cramps.lol
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 06-27-2008 18:48
I was taught how to walk the cup by using a piece of sidewalk chalk (about the size of a tig cpu) on a black board. It actually works pretty well, interesting teacher used to work for the united states science foundation, he worked at the research station in antartica. takes a long time to preheat when outside temp is -40deg.
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 06-29-2008 00:06
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this or not as I skimmed the last part of the thread, but the military has been utilizing VR systems to teach their welders the basics before placing them in the shop for awhile. The Army is utilizing this system currently at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Last time I was TDY down there we were going to go over and play with it, but never had a chance. Some of the Army NCO's were saying they thought it worked pretty decent in conveying the basics to the students. I don't know if it is actually that much more cost effective then having a young troop under a hood though. The Air Force doesn't utilize the system so I cannot comment on its effectiveness.  Closest they come is some cameras in a booth hooked to some flat panels outside so the students don't have to crowd around an instructor for presentations on the different processes prior to attempting them.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-29-2008 02:33
Nothing's too good when Uncle Sam  (read the tax payers) are footing the bill.
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 06-29-2008 02:36
Well I guess I'd like to have someone that is doing work on items that could cost or save someone's life to be as well trained as possible. If you think that the welding program is the biggest drain on the tax payer's wallets then you are high.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-29-2008 16:44
You DO know what happens when such "Assumptions" are made without any cause - correct???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 3.1 Inspector Date 06-30-2008 07:17
Oh, what a shame that welds is going on in the real world, and not in a simulator.
If I ever come acros a certificate made in a.........no no no no stop - this is insane

3.1
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / AWS Learning & Education / training welders in virtual reality .?.

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