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- - By darren (***) Date 07-18-2007 13:31
Could some one please tell me the asme or other specification referring to weave ratio between size of rod/wire and finished bead size. thanks
darren
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-18-2007 14:49
ASME doesn't address that. Recommendations are common from manufacturers.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-18-2007 14:51
I am not aware of any such limitation except for mechanized and automatic welding. Even then, it is not a limitation, simply the need to record the information.

ASME is not going to tell you "how" to do anything. It is not a cook book for design or manufacturing (including welding). Any limitation involving means of manufacturing is typically left to the manufacturer/installer. Some construction codes may have prohibitions, such as the prohibition of the use of backing rings for high pressure systems per B31.3, but they are few and far between.

Al
Parent - - By Erik Irvine (*) Date 07-18-2007 15:23
Some procedures allow a maximum bead width for non-impacted tested SMAW P#1 through #6 as six times core wire diameter
For impact tested P#1 through #6 and all P#8, and P#41 through #45, four times the core wire diameter. This is not from ASME code, just guidance, I have a feeling you just wanted a ballpark number
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-18-2007 16:01
I don't have heartburn over those numbers. Though it might help to clarify those are based on SMAW.
Parent - - By Erik Irvine (*) Date 07-18-2007 18:14
Oops, guess I should have stated that :)
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-18-2007 19:47
Hate for someone to think they have to run a 3/16" wide pass with .045 FCAW.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 07-18-2007 23:30
welding with 1/4" 7018 la+ rolled groove weld cap I was told that 2.5x the rod diameter but my cws books say 5x. shop supervisor again says 2.5x. qc says no limit heat input is a concern though.
as far as wire goes I've carried some monstrous puddles. i find so long as they are more or less egg shaped I'm ok. i pushed the limit a few months ago and failed my first xray in two years with that mistake, one i will not be repeating any time soon. there was a good thread on the 7100 ultra wire and how you have to be careful about slag entrapment in the flat position this was of course posted after i made the mistake. had i read that thread first i would have pulled a little wire out of it and probably wouldnt have had a problem. besides they didn't know if it was the mig root which i did not put in or the first pass of flux-core which i did. the ambiguity was enough for there not to be any fault assigned but even though the root failed when the repair was effected the gouging revealed a little line of slag so that was my fault.
thanks for your responses
darren   
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 07-19-2007 01:45
I've seen guys weld 11/2" weaves on high pressure, (sch 160) pipe before. I dont agree with it. If the bevel is that big, you're doing something wrong. Heat input is a major issue with weave welds. You are diminishing the integrity of the factory material by putting that much heat in one spot on thick pipe.........plus your weld is subject to all kinds of porosity throughout the weld. I'm not a big fan of stringers, but if it takes another pass or two, why not? Gotta sleep at night........
Parent - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 07-19-2007 11:31
Just a comment....the welding time (arc) for a particular joint is not dependent on the weave width of the beads you are putting in, only the diameter of the electrode and amperage being run.  With the same diameter, 1/8" lets say, and the same amperage, 110 amps for example, the welding time is the same whether you run stringers or weave every bead by 1/2",  3/4" or more.  This is something many miss and get hung up on.  Other items such as interpass cleaning, potential for inducing defects, elevated heat input, etc., must all be considered.  In general a bit of weave on every pass may be benificial, but a weave of 1-1/2" will get you no where....fast.  A change in joint design, to reduce the opening at the top of the joint, is a much better way to increase production rates.  Also by reducing the amount of weld required to complete a joint, money is saved on consumables and the opportunity for introducing weld defects goes down.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 12:52
Now we have something to work with, we know that you are using FCAW and not SMAW.

AWS D1.1-2004 requires a split layer when the opening exceeds 1/2 inch. Table 3.7 lists the requirements for prequalified status. If the fabricator elects to exceed those limitations (Table 3.7) a test must be conducted, i.e., a PQR with the required tests, to verify the proposed methods and techniques will produce the desired results.

Other codes may or may not restrict the width of a layer. ASME provides little information about technique or methods. They follow a different philosophy than AWS. ASME assumes you are an experienced welding engineer and they leave it up to the fabricator to make those decisions. AWS seems to take the position of "this is how you can do it" and for the most part, their welding codes can be viewed a "cook books" that provides the recipes for making good welds.

Best regard - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 13:47
Three primary things happen with increasing heat input on carbon steels. Grain growth, grain type variance, and carbide precipitation. To say that a degredation of properties takes place with higher heat input is not entirely true. It depends on the properties you are talking about and how much heat you are talking about. Impact 'strength' will most likely be degraded with high heat input due to grain growth. But lateral expansion may be improved due to increased ductility and carbide precipitation. I've done SAW quals where heat inputs of 70/80/90 kj's or more actually improved the HAZ of A36 steel. Of course if the carbides get too big their hardness could contribute to fracture initiation. Tensile strength can be expected to be reduced somewhat with increasing heat input, again due mostly to carbide precipitation taking the strengthening carbon out of solution, and grains varying from acicular ferrite varieties to polygonal ferriteor pearlite. But chemically there is a bottom line tensile strength that requires extreme thermal damage in order to violate.  Not likely with welding regimes. The problem would manifest itself more in the bends generally through ductility degredation.  I've seen SAW heat inputs of over 150 kj's not reduce tensile strength below spec min.
High heat input will most likely improve creep properties, again due to grain growth and carbide formation. Unless too much carbide is removed from solution and thereby reduces overall strength. There is a threshold temperature for every material in which the strength advantage changes from fine grained to large grain.
Having said this I am not advocating excessively large weaves. Just making the point for engineering considerations.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 13:58
One more thing while I'm on a mini thesis here, metallurgical changes are effected by heat energy in any given location. Therefore wide weaves may or may not cause more heat input at any given location. It depends on energy and geometry.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 07-19-2007 16:48
If the travel speed in any given direction is kept the same, then wide weaves will have more heat input per inch of weld than a stringer pass because progress is slower along the weld.

Hg
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 17:21
I'm confused. Isn't progress and travel speed the same thing?
Parent - By dmilesdot (**) Date 07-19-2007 18:07
D1.5 also addresses the split layer technique when the width of the layer exceeds 1".
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 19:15
Hello JS;

I may be wrong, but I believe he is saying that the velocity of the arc as it is manipulated side to side during oscillation to make a weave bead is constant, i.e., V1, but the travel speed, i.e., V2, from point A to B along the length of the joint is slowed in comparison to the travel speed, i.e., V1, between points A and B using a stringer bead technique which would be equal to the velocity of the side to side movement , i.e., V1, of the electrode while oscillating for the weave bead. I believe that is the longest continuous run-on sentence I have ever written.

B est regard - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 19:30
Its OK Al, I think I'm with you.
Ultimately I don't believe that wide beads and narrow beads do provide the same properties. Heat input formulas with A, V, and TS are just a generalization. I think they work well in many cases but not so well in others. Too many times I've been left scratching my head when the relationship just didn't make sense withthe results.
From a macro mechanical (born out by Charpies, tensiles, and bends, etc) standpoint it probably takes a very wide weave indeed to change much. But from a micro metallurgical standpoint time at temp at any given point and heating an cooling cycles at any given point generated by wide weaving as opposed to constant energy input (or at least a relatively more constant energy input) from a narrow weave should vary the microstructure considerably. IMO.
Bottom line, I think if you change anything, anything at all (weave width, volts, amps, rod size, arc density, TS, current type, seven slag cover) you are going to vary the microstrucutre to some extent. Does it matter? Just gotta test it, thats all.
Empirically the HI formula sledge hammer seems to work pretty well. Though, do enough testing and you will still have too many head scratchers for comfort.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-19-2007 21:45
The heat input formula, as well as equivalency formulas for carbon, chrome, and nickel are all tools that let you know if you are heading in the right direction or about to throw yourself off a cliff. If they all point in the same direction you can develop a warm fuzzy feeling that something isn't going to jump up and bite you in the butt. If one of the tools doesn't fit or seems to be out of line, you know that you better change direction or dig a little deeper.

Wasn't it that fella that got hit in the head with an apple that said, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?" Any change in a welding system is going to directly or indirectly influence something else.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-20-2007 01:12 Edited 07-20-2007 01:34
Do you mean Sir Issac Newton? the Alchemist? "the main gazaine' when it comes to laying the foundations of the Physical sciences as in the case of gravity by getting hit awake from an apple while taking a nap!!! Talk about a rude awakening!!! One of the co-inventors of what is now known as the calculus? Does anybody remember the the other person, and where he was from? Another question is which form of calculus was invented by whom? Finally what was the name of the theory that Newton came up with?

Now what are we really referring to?
As already mentioned, Newton's principal work was brought forth in 1687, "Philosophiae Naturalis" - "Principia Mathematica" (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy); it is the first and the greatest work ever written on theoretical physics. In this work, Newton showed how his principle of universal gravitation explained both the motions of heavenly bodies, and the falling of bodies on earth. "Every body continues in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a right line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it. ... The change of motion is proportional to the motive force impressed; and is made in the direction of the right line in which that force is impressed, and to every action there is always opposed an equal reaction or, the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts. There you have it: Newton's Laws of Motion.

Thus, Newton determined that there did exist natural laws. One law was that there did exist an attractive force (gravity); it exists between any two particles of matter. He developed his explanation of this natural law as it relates to light between the years 1664 and 1666. This force described by Newton was thought to be of equal application throughout the universe, here on earth and, out there, among the cosmos; it came to be called "universal gravitation." It is this same force that will haul the ungriped coffee cup crashing to the floor, and keeps the celestial objects in their path.

Newton struck upon his theory of gravitation at the age of 23. Like most perfectionists Newton was cautious in his pronouncements, such that, the publication of this theory was not to take place until many years later.

Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation has been described as follows: It is a force between any two bodies and is "directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. ... The measure of the force of gravitation on a given body on earth is the weight of that body." While certain of Newton's theories have not stood the tests applied in the 20th century, his law of universal gravitation has stood: "In the general theory of relativity, gravitation is explained geometrically: matter in its immediate neighborhood causes the curvature of the four-dimensional space-time continuum."

The story is that the boy (Newton) suffered from a blow delivered by a schoolyard bully; or was it that he was struck on the head by an apple... Whatever it was, an event occurred whereby "the hard shell which imprisoned his genius was cracked wide open." The boy was to make a dramatic turn around, early in his scholastic career. He was to ask questions which many of us sooner or later have come to ask. "What is light and how is it transmitted?" "What keeps the moon in the orbit of the earth, and the planets in the orbit of the sun?" "Why does the apple fall to the ground?" Newton came, in time, to answer these questions, and was to give positive proof of these answers, proofs and answers which serve us yet today.

In conclusion, I quote from Professor Bernal's "Science in History":

"Newton's theory of gravitation, and his contribution to astronomy mark the final stage of the transformation of the Aristotelian world-picture begun by Copernicus. For a vision of spheres, operated by a first mover, or by angels on God's order, Newton had effectively substituted that of a mechanism operating according to a simple natural law, requiring no continuous application of force, and only needing divine intervention to create it and set it in motion."

Btw, Sir Issac Newton was also a "Polymath." What a story!!! :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2007 02:11
Hi ssbn,
I have never seen or read any where are anything that said to weave are not to weave, but I was always told that the bead shouldn't be know wider than the rod to always to run stringers because you be less likely to get flux trap in the weld. Is this so.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-20-2007 02:47
It has seemed to Me that wide weaves often lead to more distortion than stringers do. Anybody's views and experiences welcomed.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-20-2007 13:25
Does anybody remember the the other person, and where he was from?
Yes. Gottfried Leibniz.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-20-2007 20:39
Allright Jeff!!
However, you did'nt answer where he was from or the name of the theory that Newton was referring to when he first came up with his form of differential and integral calculus... What was the name of the theory? Where was he from? :) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-20-2007 21:09
Leibniz was German. As was many, many great minds. Kant, Hegel, Schopenhaur, Schelling, Fichte, Einstein, Wolff, Shrodinger, Heisenburg, Von Braun, Goethe, Neitzche, Fuerbach, Luther, Heiddegger, Habermas, etc., etc.
As for the theory, I could google it but I figure thats cheatin.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-20-2007 21:16
Oh, wait a minute! This is an AWS site. Open book is acceptable. Cool.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-21-2007 09:54 Edited 07-21-2007 10:12
The Theory of Fluxions ;)
Bravo Jeff!
The answer is no Larry because, they did not offer any proofs to a scientific society such as the Royal Society of the 17th & early eighteenth century to substantiate their work into becoming a theory as opposed to being left as a hypothesis. :) It's a shame but, politics always seems to creep into moments of brilliance in the history of man...

Btw, Gottfried was the one that really made scientific notation work :)he was also the first one to publish his work on Claculus but, Sir Issac had already discovered the differential & integral Calculus  years before and so the feud between the two started as to whom came up with the calculus first and since Sir Issac had more powerful members of the Royal society behind him, he eventually won out but, later onand long after both of their passings, Gottfried started to get the respect that was deserved because, there was less "political mudslinging" going on afterwards. Many folks to this day still feel that Gottfried was nothing more than a cheat, a plagurer, a con artist and that all of the credit should be given to Sir Issac...

Oh well, at least Gottfried was eventually vindicated as a true co-inventor after his death because it was later discovered that they both independently of each other, invented very similar forms of differential and Integral calculus and both submitted mathematical proofs to substantiate their claims that were also independent of each other... In other words their individual sets of mathematical proofs submitted to substantiate their theories were totally different!!! However, they both gave proof that their theories worked!!!

Anyone want to use calculus to prove that weaving does provide more heat input to the bead if the same current & voltages are being used when depositing a stringer bead in to an identical joint configuration?
I'm not the mathematician to do so, and that's why I ask :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-21-2007 13:49 Edited 07-21-2007 18:18
Henry,

So poor Archimedes, being born in the 3rd century BC was unable to present his work to the royal Society and theirfore it does not count and others are credited?....... I would say he was rooked!

His contributions included
Contributions:

1  Discovered how to find the volume of a sphere and determined the exact value of Pi.

2  Principle of Buoyancy. (It is believe that when he discovered the principle of Buoyancy, he went running through the streets naked shouting 'Eureka' - I have found it)

3 It is believed that he was actually the first to have invented integral calculus, 2000 years before Newton and Leibniz.

4 Powers of Ten, a way of counting that refers to the number of 0's in a number which eliminated the use of the Greek alphabet in the counting system. (Scientific Notation)
A formula to find the area under a curve, the amount of space that is enclosed by a curve.
http://math.about.com/library/blbioarchimedes.htm

BTW   "Theory"   and  "Hypotheses"  are synonymous
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-22-2007 07:55 Edited 07-22-2007 09:26
Hi Larry!
Actually It was "Zeno of Elea" who started it all in 450 BC :)

The main ideas which underpin the calculus developed over a very long period of time indeed. The first steps were taken by Greek mathematicians.
To the Greeks numbers were ratios of integers so the number line had "holes" in it. They got round this difficulty by using lengths, areas and volumes in addition to numbers for, to the Greeks, not all lengths were numbers.

Zeno of Elea, about 450 BC, gave a number of problems which were based on the infinite. For example he argued that motion is impossible:

"If a body moves from A to B then before it reaches B it passes through the mid-point, say B1 of AB. Now to move to B1 it must first reach the mid-point B2 of AB1 . Continue this argument to see that A must move through an infinite number of distances and so cannot move."

Leucippus, Democritus and Antiphon all made contributions to the Greek method of exhaustion which was put on a scientific basis by Eudoxus about 370 BC. The method of exhaustion is so called because one thinks of the areas measured expanding so that they account for more and more of the required area.

However Archimedes, around 225 BC, made one of the most significant of the Greek contributions. His first important advance was to show that the area of a segment of a parabola is 4/3 the area of a triangle with the same base and vertex and 2/3 of the area of the circumscribed parallelogram. Archimedes constructed an infinite sequence of triangles starting with one of area A and continually adding further triangles between the existing ones and the parabola to get areas...

A, A + A/4 , A + A/4 + A/16 , A + A/4 + A/16 + A/64 , ...

The area of the segment of the parabola is therefore

A(1 + 1/4 + 1/42 + 1/43 + ....) = (4/3)A.

This is the first known example of the summation of an infinite series.
Archimedes used the method of exhaustion to find an approximation to the area of a circle. This, of course, is an early example of integration which led to approximate values of π.  "Pi" is what I meant :)

Among other 'integrations' by Archimedes were the volume and surface area of a sphere, the volume and area of a cone, the surface area of an ellipse, the volume of any segment of a paraboloid of revolution and a segment of an hyperboloid of revolution. Still, this is after all - GEOMETRY! Not the CALCULUS - YET!!!

No further progress was made until the 16th Century when mechanics began to drive mathematicians to examine problems such as centres of gravity. Luca Valerio (1552-1618) published De quadratura parabolae in Rome (1606) which continued the Greek methods of attacking these type of area problems.

Kepler, in his work on planetary motion, had to find the area of sectors of an ellipse. His method consisted of thinking of areas as sums of lines, another crude form of integration, but Kepler had little time for Greek rigour and was rather lucky to obtain the correct answer after making two cancelling errors in this work.

Three mathematicians, born within three years of each other, were the next to make major contributions. They were Fermat, Roberval and Cavalieri. Cavalieri was led to his 'method of indivisibles' by Kepler's attempts at integration. He was not rigorous in his approach and it is hard to see clearly how he thought about his method. It appears that Cavalieri thought of an area as being made up of components which were lines and then summed his infinite number of 'indivisibles'. He showed, using these methods, that the integral of xn from 0 to a was an+1/(n + 1) by showing the result for a number of values of n and inferring the general result.

Roberval considered problems of the same type but was much more rigorous than Cavalieri. Roberval looked at the area between a curve and a line as being made up of an infinite number of infinitely narrow rectangular strips. He applied this to the integral of xm from 0 to 1 which he showed had approximate value:

(0m + 1m + 2m + ... + (n-1)m)/nm+1.

Roberval then asserted that this tended to 1/(m + 1) as n tends to infinity, so calculating the area.

Fermat was also more rigorous in his approach but gave no proofs.
He generalised the parabola and hyperbola:
Parabola:    y/a = (x/b)2  to  (y/a)n = (x/b)m
Hyperbola:   y/a = b/x  to  (y/a)n = (b/x)m.

In the course of examining y/a = (x/b)p, Fermat computed the sum of rp from r = 1 to r = n.
Fermat also investigated maxima and minima by considering when the tangent to the curve was parallel to the x-axis. He wrote to Descartes giving the method essentially as used today, namely finding maxima and minima by calculating when the derivative of the function was 0. In fact, because of this work, Lagrange stated clearly that he considers Fermat to be the inventor of the calculus.

Descartes produced an important method of determining normals in La Géométrie in 1637 based on double intersection. De Beaune extended his methods and applied it to tangents where double intersection translates into double roots. Hudde discovered a simpler method, known as Hudde's Rule, which basically involves the derivative. Descartes' method and Hudde's Rule were important in influencing Newton.
Huygens was critical of Cavalieri's proofs saying that what one needs is a proof which at least convinces one that a rigorous proof could be constructed. Huygens was a major influence on Leibniz and so played a considerable part in producing a more satisfactory approach to the calculus.

The next major step was provided by Torricelli and Barrow. Barrow gave a method of tangents to a curve where the tangent is given as the limit of a chord as the points approach each other known as Barrow's differential triangle.

Both Torricelli and Barrow considered the problem of motion with variable speed. The derivative of the distance is velocity and the inverse operation takes one from the velocity to the distance. Hence an awareness of the inverse of differentiation began to evolve naturally and the idea that integral and derivative were inverses to each other were familiar to Barrow. In fact, although Barrow never explicitly stated the fundamental theorem of the calculus, he was working towards the result and Newton was to continue with this direction and state the Fundamental Theorem of the Calculus explicitly.
Torricelli's work was continued in Italy by Mengoli and Angeli.  Voila!!! :) THE CALCULUS!!! AT LAST???

Newton wrote a tract on fluxions in October 1666. This was a work which was not published at the time but seen by many mathematicians and had a major influence on the direction the calculus was to take. Newton thought of a particle tracing out a curve with two moving lines which were the coordinates. The horizontal velocity x' and the vertical velocity y' were the fluxions of x and y associated with the flux of time. The fluents or flowing quantities were x and y themselves. With this fluxion notation y'/x' was the tangent to f(x, y) = 0.

In his 1666 tract Newton discusses the converse problem, given the relationship between x and y'/x' find y. Hence the slope of the tangent was given for each x and when y'/x' = f(x) then Newton solves the problem by antidifferentiation. He also calculated areas by antidifferentiation and this work contains the first clear statement of the Fundamental Theorem of the Calculus.

Newton had problems publishing his mathematical work. Barrow was in some way to blame for this since the publisher of Barrow's work had gone bankrupt and publishers were, after this, wary of publishing mathematical works! Newton's work on Analysis with infinite series was written in 1669 and circulated in manuscript. It was not published until 1711. Similarly his Method of fluxions and infinite series was written in 1671 and published in English translation in 1736. The Latin original was not published until much later.
In these two works Newton calculated the series expansion for sin x and cos x and the expansion for what was actually the exponential function, although this function was not established until Euler introduced the present notation ex.

You can see the series expansions for sine and for Taylor or Maclaurin series.
Newton's next mathematical work was Tractatus de Quadratura Curvarum which he wrote in 1693 but it was not published until 1704 when he published it as an Appendix to his Optiks. This work contains another approach which involves taking limits. Newton says:

In the time in which x by flowing becomes x+o, the quantity xn becomes (x+o)n i.e. by the method of infinite series, xn + noxn-1 + (nn-n)/2 ooxn-2 + . . .

At the end he lets the increment o vanish by 'taking limits'.

Leibniz learnt much on a European tour which led him to meet Huygens in Paris in 1672. He also met Hooke and Boyle in London in 1673 where he bought several mathematics books, including Barrow's works. Leibniz was to have a lengthy correspondence with Barrow. On returning to Paris Leibniz did some very fine work on the calculus, thinking of the foundations very differently from Newton.

Newton considered variables changing with time. Leibniz thought of variables x, y as ranging over sequences of infinitely close values. He introduced dx and dy as differences between successive values of these sequences. Leibniz knew that dy/dx gives the tangent but he did not use it as a defining property.
For Newton integration consisted of finding fluents for a given fluxion so the fact that integration and differentiation were inverses was implied.

Leibniz used integration as a sum, in a rather similar way to Cavalieri. He was also happy to use 'infinitesimals' dx and dy where Newton used x' and y' which were finite velocities. Of course neither Leibniz nor Newton thought in terms of functions, however, but both always thought in terms of graphs. For Newton the calculus was geometrical while Leibniz took it towards analysis. HMMMMM!!!!! Different do'nt you think???

Leibniz was very conscious that finding a good notation was of fundamental importance and thought a lot about it. Newton, on the other hand, wrote more for himself and, as a consequence, tended to use whatever notation he thought of on the day. Leibniz's notation of d and  highlighted the operator aspect which proved important in later developments. By 1675 Leibniz had settled on the notation
"y dy = y2/2" written exactly as it would be today. His results on the integral calculus were published in 1684 and 1686 under the name 'calculus summatorius', the name integral calculus was suggested by Jacob Bernoulli in 1690. So there you have it!!! :)

After Newton and Leibniz the development of the calculus was continued by Jacob Bernoulli and Johann Bernoulli. However when Berkeley published his Analyst in 1734 attacking the lack of rigour in the calculus and disputing the logic on which it was based much effort was made to tighten the reasoning. Maclaurin attempted to put the calculus on a rigorous geometrical basis but the really satisfactory basis for the calculus had to wait for the work of Cauchy in the 19th Century.

So it all started with Zeno's arrow theory ;) See what a "point" of whatever can become??? :) ;) :)

BTW, I apologize for some of the notation because, it seems that I do'nt have the appropriate keyboard - Sorry!!! :)

Reference:  http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/The_rise_of_calculus.html

Respectfully,
Henry
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Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-22-2007 08:51
Here's another "Synonymous" perspective:

An article on infinity in a History of Mathematics Archive presents special problems.
Does one concentrate purely on the mathematical aspects of the topic or does one consider the philosophical and even religious aspects? In this article we take the view that historically one cannot parate the philosophical and religious aspects from mathematical ones since they play an important role in how ideas developed. This is particularly true in ancient Greek times, as Knorr writes:

"The interaction of philosophy and mathematics is seldom revealed so clearly as in the study of the infinite among the ancient Greeks. The dialectical puzzles of the fifth-century Eleatics, sharpened by Plato and Aristotle in the fourth century, are complemented by the invention of precise methods of limits, as applied by Eudoxus in the fourth century and Euclid and Archimedes in the third.

Of course from the time people began to think about the world they lived in, questions about infinity arose. There were questions about time. Did the world come into existence at a particular instant or had it always existed? Would the world go on for ever or was there a finite end? Then there were questions about space. What happened if one kept travelling in a particular direction? Would one reach the end of the world or could one travel for ever? Again above the earth one could see stars, planets, the sun and moon, but was this space finite or do it go on for ever?

The questions above are very fundamental and must have troubled thinkers long before recorded history. There were more subtle questions about infinity which were also asked at a stage when people began to think deeply about the world. What happened if one cut a piece of wood into two pieces, then again cut one of the pieces into two and continued to do this. Could one do this for ever?

We should begin our account of infinity with the "fifth-century Eleatic" Zeno. The early Greeks had come across the problem of infinity at an early stage in their development of mathematics and science. In their study of matter they realised the fundamental question: can one continue to divide matter into smaller and smaller pieces or will one reach a tiny piece which cannot be divided further. Pythagoras had argued that "all is number" and his universe was made up of finite natural numbers. Then there were Atomists who believed that matter was composed of an infinite number of indivisibles. Parmenides and the Eleatic School, which included Zeno, argued against the atomists. However Zeno's paradoxes show that both the belief that matter is continuously divisible and the belief in an atomic theory both led to apparent contradictions.

Of course these paradoxes arise from the infinite. Aristotle did not seem to have fully appreciated the significance of Zeno's arguments but the infinite did worry him nevertheless. He introduced an idea which would dominate thinking for two thousand years and is still a persuasive argument to some people today. Aristotle argued against the actual infinite and, in its place, he considered the potential infinite. His idea was that we can never conceive of the natural numbers as a whole. However they are potentially infinite in the sense that given any finite collection we can always find a larger finite collection.

Of relevance to our discussion is the remarkable advance made by the Babylonians who introduced the idea of a positional number system which, for the first time, allowed a concise representation of numbers without limit to their size. Despite positional number systems, Aristotle's argument is quite convincing. Only a finite number of natural numbers has ever been written down or has ever been conceived. If L is the largest number conceived up till now then I will go further and write down L + 1, or L2 but still only finitely many have been conceived. Aristotle discussed this in Chapters 4-8 of Book III of Physics where he claimed that denying that the actual infinite exists and allowing only the potential infinite would be no hardship to mathematicians:

Our account does not rob the mathematicians of their science, by disproving the actual existence of the infinite in the direction of increase, in the sense of the untransversable. In point of fact they do not need the infinite and do not use it. They postulate only that the finite straight line may be produced as far as they wish.

Cantor, over two thousand years later, argued that Aristotle was making a distinction which was only in his use of words: "In truth the potentially infinite has only a borrowed reality, insofar as a potentially infinite concept always points towards a logically prior actually infinite concept whose existence it depends on."

We will come to Cantor's ideas towards the end of this article but for the moment let us consider the effect Aristotle had on later Greek mathematicians by only allowing the potentially infinite, particularly on Euclid; How then, one may ask, was Euclid able to prove that the set of prime numbers is infinite in 300 BC? Well the answer is that Euclid did not prove this in the Elements. This is merely a modern phrasing of what Euclid actually stated as his theorem which, according to Heath's translation, reads:

"Prime numbers are more than any assigned magnitude of prime numbers."

So in fact what Euclid proved was that the prime numbers are potentially infinite but in practice, of course, this amounts to the same thing. His proof shows that given any finite collection of prime numbers there must be a prime number not in the collection.

We should discuss other aspects of the infinite which play a crucial role in the Elements. There Euclid explains the method of exhaustion due to Eudoxus of Cnidus. Often now this method is thought of as considering the circle as the limit of regular polygons as the number of sides increases to infinity. We should strongly emphasise, however, that this is not the way that the ancient Greeks looked at the method. Rather it was a reductio ad absurdum argument which avoided the use of the infinite. For example, to prove two areas A and B equal, the method would assume that the area A was less than B and then derive a contradiction after a finite number of steps. Again assuming the area B was less than A also led to a contradiction in a finite number of steps.

Recently, however, evidence has come to light which suggests that not all ancient Greek mathematicians felt constrained to deal only with the potentially infinite. The authors of have noticed a remarkable way that Archimedes investigates infinite numbers of objects in "The Method" in the Archimedes palimpsest:

"Archimedes takes three pairs of magnitudes infinite in number and asserts that they are, respectively, "equal in number"."

"We suspect there may be no other known places in Greek mathematics - or, indeed, in ancient Greek writing - where objects infinite in number are said to be "equal in magnitude"."

"The very suggestion that certain objects, infinite in number, are "equal in magnitude" to others implies that not all such objects, infinite in number, are so equal. ... We have here infinitely many objects - having definite, and different magnitudes (i.e. they nearly have number); such magnitudes are manipulated in a concrete way, apparently by something rather like a one-one correspondence."

"In this case Archimedes discusses actual infinities "almost' as if they possessed numbers in the usual sense."  "ALMOST" is the key word here!!! :)

Even if most mathematicians accepted Aristotle's potentially infinite arguments, others argued for cases of actual infinity, others argued for cases of actual infinity. In the first century BC Lucretius wrote his poem De Rerum Natura in which he argued against a universe bounded in space. His argument is a simple one. Suppose the universe were finite so there had to be a boundary. Now if one approached that boundary and threw an object at it there could be nothing to stop it since anything which stopped it would lie beyond the boundary and nothing lies outside the universe by definition. We now know, of course, that Lucretius's argument is false since space could be finite without having a boundary. However for many centuries the boundary argument dominated debate over whether space was finite.

It became largely theologians who argued in favour of the actual infinite. For example St Augustine, the Christian philosopher who built much of Plato's philosophy into Christianity in the early years of the 5th century AD, argued in favour of an infinite God and also a God capable of infinite thoughts. He wrote in his most famous work City of God:

"Such as say that things infinite are past God's knowledge may just as well leap headlong into this pit of impiety, and say that God knows not all numbers. ... What madman would say so? ... What are we mean wretches that dare presume to limit his knowledge.:

Indian mathematicians worked on introducing zero into their number system over a period of 500 years beginning with Brahmagupta in the 7th Century. The problem they struggled with was how to make zero respect the usual operations of arithmetic. Bhaskara II wrote in Bijaganita:

"A quantity divided by zero becomes a fraction the denominator of which is zero. This fraction is termed an infinite quantity. In this quantity consisting of that which has zero for its divisor, there is no alteration, though many may be inserted or extracted; as no change takes place in the infinite and immutable God when worlds are created or destroyed, though numerous orders of beings are absorbed or put forth."

It was an attempt to bring infinity, as well as zero, into the number system. Of course it does not work since if it were introduced as Bhaskara II suggests then 0 times infinity must be equal to every number n, so all numbers are equal.

Thomas Aquinas, the Christian theologian and philosopher, used the fact that there was not a number to represent infinity as an argument against the existence of the actual infinite. In Summa theologia, written in the 13th Century, Thomas Aquinas wrote:

"The existence of an actual infinite multitude is impossible. For any set of things one considers must be a specific set. And sets of things are specified by the number of things in them. Now no number is infinite, for number results from counting through a set of units. So no set of things can actually be inherently unlimited, nor can it happen to be unlimited."

This objection is indeed a reasonable one and in the time of Aquinas had no satisfactory reply. An actual infinite set requires a measure, and no such measure seemed possible to Aquinas. We have to move forward to Cantor near the end of the 19th Century before a satisfactory measure for infinite sets was found. The article examines:

"Mathematical arguments used by two thirteenth-century theologians, Alexander Nequam and Richard Fishacre, to defend the consistency of divine infinity. In connection with their arguments, the following question is raised: Why did theologians judge it appropriate to appeal to mathematical examples in addressing a purely theological issue?" Hmmm.

Mathematical induction began to be used hundreds of years before any rigorous formulation of the method was made. It did provide a technique for proving propositions were true for an infinite number of integer values. For example al-Karaji around 1000 AD used a non-rigorous form of mathematical induction in his arguments. Basically what al-Karaji did was to demonstrate an argument for n = 1, then prove the case n = 2 based on his result for n =1, then prove the case n = 3 based on his result for n = 2, and carry on to around n = 5 before remarking that one could continue the process indefinitely. By these methods he gave a beautiful description of generating the binomial coefficients using Pascal's triangle.

Pascal did not know about al-Karaji's work on Pascal's triangle but he did know that Maurolico had used a type of mathematical induction argument in the middle of the 17th Century. Pascal, setting out his version of Pascal's triangle writes:

"Even though this proposition may have an infinite number of cases, I shall give a very short proof of it assuming two lemmas. The first, which is self evident, is that the proposition is valid for the second row. The second is that if the proposition is valid for any row then it must necessarily be valid for the following row. From this it can be seen that it is necessarily valid for all rows; for it is valid for the second row by the first lemma; then by the second lemma it must be true for the third row, and hence for the fourth, and so on to infinity."

Having moved forward in time following the progress of induction, let us go back a little to see arguments which were being made about an infinite universe. Aristotle's finite universe model with nine celestial spheres centred on the Earth had been the accepted view over a long period. It was not unopposed, however, and we have already seen Lucretius's argument in favour of an infinite universe. Nicholas of Cusa in the middle of the 15th Century was a brilliant scientist who argued that the universe was infinite and that the stars were distant suns.

By the 16th Century, the Catholic Church in Europe began to try to stamp out such heresies. Giordano Bruno was not a mathematician or scientist, but he argued vigorously the case for an infinite universe in On the infinite universe and worlds (1584). Brought before the Inquisition, he was tortured for nine years in an attempt to make him agree that the universe was finite. He refused to change his views and he was burned at the stake in 1600.

Galileo was acutely aware of Bruno's fate at the hands of the Inquisition and he became very cautious in putting forward his views. He tackled the topic of infinity in Discorsi e dimostrazioni matematiche intorno a due nuove scienze (1638) where he studied the problem of two concentric circles with centre O, the larger circle A with diameter twice that of the smaller one B. The familiar formula gives the circumference of A to be twice that of B. But taking any point P on the circle A, then PA cuts circle B in one point. Similarly if Q is a point on B then OQ produced cuts circle A in exactly one point. Although the circumference of A is twice the length of the circumference of B they have the same number of points. Galileo proposed adding an infinite number of infinitely small gaps to the smaller length to make it equal to the larger yet allow them to have the same number of points.

He wrote: "These difficulties are real; and they are not the only ones. But let us remember that we are dealing with infinities and indivisibles, both of which transcend our finite understanding, the former on account of their magnitude, the latter because of their smallness. In spite of this, men cannot refrain from discussing them, even though it must be done in a roundabout way."

However, Galileo argued that the difficulties came about because:

"We attempt, with our finite minds, to discuss the infinite, assigning to it properties which we give to the finite and limited; but I think this is wrong, for we cannot speak of infinite quantities as being the one greater or less than or equal to another."

He then gave another paradox similar to the circle paradox yet this time with numbers so no infinite indivisibles could be inserted to correct the situation. He produced the standard one-to-one correspondence between the positive integers and their squares. On the one hand this showed that there were the same number of squares as there were whole numbers. However most numbers were not perfect squares.

Galileo says this means only that: "The totality of all numbers is infinite, and that the number of squares is infinite.; neither is the number of squares less than the totality of all numbers, nor the latter greater than the former; and, finally, the attributes "equal", "greater", and "less" are not applicable to the infinite, but only to finite quantities."

Knobloch takes a new look at this work by Galileo. In the same paper Leibniz's careful definitions of the infinitesimal and the infinite in terms of limit procedures are examined. Leibniz's development of the calculus was built on ideas of the infinitely small which has been studied for a long time.

Cavalieri wrote Geometria indivisibilibus continuorum (1635) in which he thought of lines as comprising of infinitely many points and areas to be composed of infinitely many lines. He gave quite rigorous methods of comparing areas, known as the "Principle of Cavalieri". If a line is moved parallel to itself across two areas and if the ratio of the lengths of the line within each area is always a : b then the ratio of the areas is a : b.

Roberval went further down the road of thinking of lines as being the sum of an infinite number of small indivisible parts. He introduced methods to compare the sizes of the indivisibles so even if they did not have a magnitude themselves one could define ratios of their magnitudes. It was a real step forward in dealing with infinite processes since for the first time he was able to ignore magnitudes which were small compared to others. However there was a difference between being able to use the method correctly and writing down rigorously precise conditions when it would work. Consequently paradoxes arose which led some to want the method of indivisibles to be rejected.

The Roman College rejected indivisibles and banned their teaching in Jesuit Colleges in 1649. The Church had failed to silence Bruno despite putting him to death, it had failed to silence Galileo despite putting him under house arrest and it would not stop progress towards the differential and integral calculus by banning the teaching of indivisibles. Rather the Church would only force mathematicians to strive for greater rigour in the face of criticism.

The symbol  ∞   which we use for infinity today, was first used by John Wallis who used it in De sectionibus conicis in 1655 and again in Arithmetica infinitorum in 1656. He chose it to represent the fact that one could traverse the curve infinitely often.

Three years later Fermat identified an important property of the positive integers, namely that it did not contain an infinite descending sequence. He did this introducing the method of infinite descent in 1659:

"In the cases where ordinary methods given in books prove insufficient for handling such difficult propositions, I have at last found an entirely singular way of dealing with them. I call this method of proving infinite descent."

The method was based on showing that if a proposition was true for some positive integer value n, then it was also true for some positive integer value less than n. Since no infinite descending chain existed in the positive integers such a proof would yield a contradiction. Fermat used his method to prove that there were no positive integer solutions to: x4 + y4 = z4.

Newton rejected indivisibles in favour of his fluxion which was a measure of the instantaneous variation of a quantity. Of course, the infinite was not avoided since he still had to consider infinitely small increments. This was, in a sense, Newton's answer to Zeno's arrow problem:

"If, says Zeno, everything is either at rest or moving when it occupies a space equal to itself, while the object moved is in the instant, the moving arrow is unmoved."

Newton's fluxions produced wonderful mathematical results but many were wary of his use of infinitely small increments. George Berkeley's famous quote summed up the objections in a succinct way:

"And what are these fluxions? The velocities of evanescent increments. And what are these same evanescent increments? They are neither finite quantities, nor quantities infinitely small, nor yet nothing. May we not call them ghosts of departed quantities?"

Newton believed that space is in fact infinite and not merely indefinitely large. He claimed that such an infinity could be understood, particularly using geometrical arguments, but it could not be conceived. This is interesting for, as we shall see below, others argued against actual infinity using the fact that it could not be conceived.

The problem of whether space and time are infinitely divisible continued to trouble people. The philosopher David Hume argued that there was a minimum perceptible size in Treatise of human nature (1739):

"Put a spot of ink upon paper, fix your eye upon the spot, and retire to such a distance that at last you lose sight of it; 'tis plain that the moment before it vanished the image or impression was perfectly indivisible."

Immanuel Kant argued in The critique of pure reason (1781) that the actual infinite cannot exist because it cannot be perceived:

"In order to conceive the world, which fills all space, as a whole, the successive synthesis of the parts of an infinite world would have to be looked upon as completed; that is, an infinite time would have to be looked upon as elapsed, during the enumeration of all coexisting things."

This comes to the question often asked by philosophers: would the world exist if there were no intelligence capable of conceiving its existence? Kant says no; so we come back to the point made near the beginning of this article namely that the collection of integers is not infinite since we can never enumerate more than a finite number."

Little progress was being made on the question of the actual infinite. The same arguments kept on appearing without any definite progress towards a better understanding.

Gauss, in a letter to Schumacher in 1831, argued against the actual infinite: "I protest against the use of infinite magnitude as something completed, which in mathematics is never permissible. Infinity is merely a facon de parler, the real meaning being a limit which certain ratios approach indefinitely near, while others are permitted to increase without restriction."

Perhaps one of the most significant events in the development of the concept of infinity was Bernard Bolzano's Paradoxes of the infinite which was published in 1840. He argues that the infinite does exist and his argument involves the idea of a set which he defined for the first time: "I call a set a collection where the order of its parts is irrelevant and where nothing essential is changed if only the order is changed."
Here comes the clincher...

Why does defining a set make the actual infinite a reality? The answer is simple. Once one thinks of the integers as a set then there is a single entity which must be actually infinite. Aristotle would look at the integers from the point of view that one can find arbitrarily large finite subsets. But once one has the set concept then these are seen as subsets of the set of integers which must itself be actually infinite. Perhaps surprisingly Bolzano does not use this example of an infinite set but rather looks at all true propositions:

"The class of all true propositions is easily seen to be infinite. For if we fix our attention upon any truth taken at random and label it A, we find that the proposition conveyed by the words "A is true" is distinct from the proposition A itself."

At this stage the mathematical study of infinity moves into set theory and we refer the reader to the article Beginnings of set theory for more information about Bolzano's contribution and also the treatment of infinity by Cantor who built a theory of different sizes of infinity with his definitions of cardinal and ordinal numbers.

The problem of infinitesimals was put on a rigorous mathematical basis by Robinson with his famous 1966 text on nonstandard analysis. Kreisel wrote: "This book, which appeared just 250 years after Leibniz' death, presents a rigorous and efficient theory of infinitesimals obeying, as Leibniz wanted, the same laws as the ordinary numbers.  So there you go Larry :)

References:

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Infinity.html
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/The_rise_of_calculus.html

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-22-2007 12:05
Awsome Henry,

Love history..... but I'm a skeeeeerd of math..
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-23-2007 04:11
So here We are in the 21st century and there are groups in the southern states that want publick school to teach the "biblical" value of pie, (3). Actually this is an Aprill Fools joke that created quite a ruckus. It isn't factual...YET. Dave
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 07-24-2007 01:29
Henry - write a damn book, why dontcha?
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 07-23-2007 20:36
How 'bout Deushpintz?? He was an idiot.

My Grandma calls me that every time I run in to the law???
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-20-2007 21:52
My son, being a Greek scholar has suggested to me several times that the Greeks are responsible for some very high level mathmatics, including arguably calculus.

Did Ancient Greek Mathematicians invent Calculus?
Under the direction of: Julius Barbanel

"Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz (both working in the late 17th and early 18th centuries) are generally considered to be the inventors of calculus. However, work of the ancient Greek mathematicians Eudoxus and Archimedes (who worked in the 4th and 3rd centuries BC, respectively) looks a whole lot like integral calculus. Eudoxus developed the "Method of Exhaustion," which used an idea very close to the notion of a limit, to compute areas and volumes. Archimedes extended this method, and also developed what has become known as "The Mechanical Method" for studying areas and volumes and involves "adding" together an infinite number of infinitesimally small slices. Should Eudoxus and Archimedes be credited with inventing integral calculus?"
From Union College Math Department
http://www.math.union.edu/courses/thesis/2007-08/barbanel2.html
Parent - By Cgregory (**) Date 07-23-2007 15:07
As a history buff, this is my new favorite thread :) 

Just one note to everybody: let's be careful with copyright issues, ok?  Instead of copying and pasting from a source, summarize and provide a link to where you're getting your information from.  We don't want to violate anyone's copyright or work.

Thanks!!!

-- Christine
Parent - By Cgregory (**) Date 07-23-2007 15:11
But from the history buff department....

It's a bit difficult to know exactly how much the Greeks may have discovered as they studied mathematics, simply because so many of their math texts and documents have been lost.  I suspect at least some were destroyed by some late antiquity kid going, "AUUGH!  I HATE MATH! I'm just going to burn this extraordinarily brilliant discussion of introductory integral calculus so I never have to look at it again!"

-- Christine
Parent - By ross (***) Date 07-23-2007 20:47
Great novel starring Newton and Leibnitz (and also Hooke, Ben Franklin as a boy, Ivan the Great, alchemists, and pirates) is Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver," first book of a trilogy dramatizing the Enlightenment period.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-21-2007 16:20
Al,

I cannot remember the equvalence formula for the nickel version. If you happen to know it, could you please post?

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By prasad (*) Date 07-21-2007 22:18 Edited 07-21-2007 22:27
i cannot read any answers to questions here. ? any qualified people ?
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 07-29-2007 07:29
prasad.......sheisnehose
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-22-2007 15:17
You can use the Ni eq. taken from the Schefler, DeLong, or WRC diagram that you are using to approximate the percentage of ferrite or the ferrite number if you are dealing with stainless steel. The modified WRC diagram by Kotecki is good if you are joining carbon steel to stainless steel. Just Google Damien Kotecki and WRC and you'll get a good listing of stes to visit.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 07-22-2007 21:34
wow so let me see if i understand this. the greeks say don't weave at all and the germans say weave as wide as you want.
very impressive thread.
i have a book "the concise history of mathematics" i got lost just after the cave dwellers and pictographs.
holy ship henry i think you are running a close second to stephan for the amount of info put into one thread.
awesome.
can you imagine trying to explain to those outside this forum what welders discuss, they would never believe it.
again awesome thread
darren
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-23-2007 13:23
And clearly Planck and Bohr were more Zenoite than Aristotelian. I'm guessing Max knew as much of the flight of arrows as black bodies.
Parent - - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 07-28-2007 02:58
Shame on the next person who says "He is just a welder! What does he know?" Thanks for the insight!
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-29-2007 06:27
Usually any use of "what does he know" is preceded by an assumption of ignorance based solely on the social prejudices of the observer. In doing so, the observer displays his or her own ignorance in glowing neon letters. Take Henry for example, he plays the good ol boy welder by day, scholar by night. No offense Henry, but as you once said of Stephan, "the jig is up". The down home boy, or good ol boy routine just won't wash any more.
Speaking for myself only, I am usually very careful with these good ol boys, as its very often a sham. Coming from the south, it's very prevalent. There are a few that are as they appear and act, but only a very few. I am equally on guard with those who put themselves off as "experts". Some actually are, but most couldn't find their own A$$ with both hands, a flash light, and an anatomical road map.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-29-2007 15:55
Hey CWI555!

Excellent observation!

No offense taken! :)

Respectfully,
Henry

P.S. I've been on the road myself for the past few days so, I apologize for not responding to anyone sooner :)
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