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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / controlling stainless distortion
- - By reddoggoose (**) Date 08-16-2007 02:48
Have any of you guys every used or heard of anyone using a preheat to help control shrinkage stresses in the weld metal for stainless. I've known people who have used it on steel, but never stainless. Would it help offset the difference in temperature gradients or would it just end up warping the part. I don't have any detail on composition, geometry, or size, all I know is it is on a casting repair, so its wide open to any answers.

Thanks
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-17-2007 05:18
I never tried it personally, but I think it would depend on the specifics of the particular job, and how the preheat was aplied [localised, entire part, etc.]
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 08-17-2007 06:27
it only makes sense that the higher the preheat temp the less distortion the weld would generate. but what makes sense doesn't always work out sounds like a question for stephan.
come to think of it we do not stress relieve anything stainless. good question look forward to the big dogs chiming in with their experience.

btw i cannot tell you guys how much this forum helps me in my day to day work. guys will ask how the hell i know "that" at work and i tell them aws forum but they don't find the time to look. so i'm one of the only guys who knows the answers to the tougher questions because of this forum
thanks
darren
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-18-2007 22:14
Dear Sirs,

first of all a stressed "Cheeeers" Darren! :-)

I have long considered before I started to write this post and there's a simple reason for.

Who else have "cut their teeth" more in Stainless Steel Welding and Welding-Metallurgy than Chuck, Jeff, Henry... . I personally do not know anybody having larger expertise in Stainless Steel Welding as the mentioned Gentlemen.

Thus once again it was a true pleasure to read their replies and nothing further should be necessary to say.

But please forgive me, meanwhile you know me :-) and thus please let me make a very short addition, since there are on the other hand two major reasons for that I would like to write:

1.  I am currently listening to Johann Sebastian Bach's Concerto No. 6 in B Flat Major, and this inspires me...

2.  There are some particular information I have regarding the topic which I would be glad to share with you

O.K.

Since reddoggoose has stated in his initial post (Quote):

"I don't have any detail on composition, geometry, or size, all I know is it is on a casting repair..."

I have remembered a welding application been performed in the 1980's and where a previous employer of mine had specifically developed and subsequently delivered the filler materials for. I would paraphrase it as an application going in the direction of being a - already mentioned by Jeff when he uses the term -  "...depender...".

Although it has nothing to do with the finally mentioned 316 (cast-?) alloy and I personally have never preheated "common" Stainless Steels as a measure of distortion-reduction (surely founded on the reasons to be read above) before I have welded them, I would like to treat this special "Stainless Steel Cast" welding operation.

This welding operation was conducted in the Switzerland, in a company, at that time one of worldwide leading ones in the field of casting stainless steel power plant components etc.

The material to be welded at that time was a DIN standardized G-X 5 CrNi 13-4 (~ 0.05 % C / ~ 13% Chromium / ~ 4% Ni) cast material. It's been used for instance for casting a 91 ton "FRANCIS-Wheel", please see also the attached FRANCIS-Wheel_jpg. I hope to translate it correctly when I say it is thus an "Annealed" Martensitic Chromium Nickel Steel. In Germany we are using the technical term "Weichmartensitischer Stahl" what should express that the Austenite is being transformed into Martensite and subsequently achieving highest mechanical properties in particular increased toughness properties by being annealed.

Before I would like to continue in respect to weld-processing this material, please allow to let me briefly explain what kind of welding terminology we are using in Germany, particularly in coherence with "cast steel welding". I mean that this is important to have a better understanding of what I would like to describe.

Therefore one must know that here we are distinguishing between three different terms in order to find out what kind of welding conditions are to be expected.

These three technical terms are:

1.  «Structural Welding»

In using this welding procedure we have conditions as already Chuck has excellently explained by saying (quote):

"...distortion should be considered before starting the job, and using appropriate welding processes and welding sequences to eliminate as much distortion as possible..."

This means, that in first order different subcomponents should be joined together to a larger structure. By having the chance to schedule the construction  b e f o r e  the welding process is being carried out, one has the chance to consider the most proper conditions for welding, testing, positioning, dimensioning, clamping,... . By doing so one has the chance as well to consider measures for reducing or preventing distortion, respectively. 

2.  «Fabrication Welding» ("Fertigungsschweißung" in German)

Fabrication Welding, in regard to steel cast manufacturing, can be seen as a fixed constituent of the manufacturing process itself. It is used for the correction of defects or inhomogeneities within the cast steel part or component, respectively. Background of this welding procedure is to secure similar mechanical-technological properties comparable to those ones of the base material. And now comes the crucial point in regard to preheating the parts for welding. It is standardized that the "...residual stresses after welding may not significantly deteriorate the later intended use of the steel cast component...".

3.  «Repair Welding»

This welding procedure is being used for "repairing" or "reconditioning" components or parts having been damaged while they were used under daily routine processing conditions. Herein one must consider that different metallurgical or mechanical properties can occur, after the "Repair Welding" has been conducted.

Well, for the next accomplishments we can now use the term "Fabrication Welding" which has been used within the Swiss company I am speaking of. They have mainly used the Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW) for the correction of cast process caused inhomogeneities. Due to the fact that those parts to be corrected by using the "Fabrication Welding" are large components, having great masses and weights, one has to consider that the "defect-area" which can be located anywhere within the cast part and to be corrected by welding can be seen as an unwanted perturbation and thus can cause stringent residual stresses in the surrounding area of the weld.

This again can - in worst case - subsequently cause cracks and thus a partial damage of the "Fabrication Welded" part.

Therefore one had fixed that time a particular procedure for "Fabrication Welding" the stainless martensitic cast steel "G-X 5 CrNi 13-4" under utilization of the Shielded Metal Arc Welding process.

This special procedure I would like to show by attaching the "Actuating_Variable.pdf".

Herein one can see, that there a preheating (> 100°C) of the Martensitic Stainless Material (cast steel) is being considered and required. The major difference in regard to what reddoggoose has mentioned (reduction of distortion) is, that this kind of preheating procedure could - from my point of view - be rather seen as a measure to avoiding delayed cracking under occurrence of stringent residual stress conditions in between the areas of welded defects and the surrounding large and very large cast steel component.

I personally can rather not imagine that stainless steel cast components having large and very large masses or weights and to be "Fabrication welded", are afflicted with the risk of a large distortion after welding, but rather are at risk to be damaged by cracking mechanisms due to their stringent stiffness and inability to compensate residual stresses induced by the welding process.

However, this is - to repeat myself - certainly a very special application and surely not transferable upon a common level with respect to a "Stainless Steel Generalization".

As Henry, Jeff and Chuck have mentioned there are certainly too many peculiar reasons in charge of that this "Generalization" will not be feasible.

So far my humble try of a contribution to this interesting topic...

Best Regards,
Stephan
Attachment: Actuating_Variable.pdf (10k)
Attachment: FRANCIS-Wheel.jpg (95k)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-18-2007 22:48 Edited 08-18-2007 22:54
Hi Stephan!
Many moons ago when I briefly worked with Titanium Fabricators in New Jersey, We made one of those "francis wheels" out of CP Grade 2 Ti... What a fun job that was!!! I believe they called it an Impeller ;)

I know we were talking about preheating stainless, and I'm going just little off topic but, I just wanted to mention that those Swiss Orelikon welding machines sure did run smooth as silk when I tried one out a few years ago. I forgot the name of the model but, those CC SMAW/GTAW AC/DC inverters ran better than most of the comperable models/brands sold here although I am partial to the OTC inverters;) :) ;)

No offense Chuck but, the consumables they made were excellent also!!!
Btw, most austenitic stainless do not require preheat especially if they're thin enough and the humidity is very low or temperatures are desirable... The maximum preheat should be no more than 300F to be on the safe side, and that high of a temperature is'nt always necessary... Martensitic castings beg to be preheated!!! :) :) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-18-2007 23:15 Edited 08-20-2007 16:31
Hi Henry!

Wow, as I said once, you are truly one of those ones who are elected!

Titanium Welding... great!

Have seen, but never executed it personally!

Thanks for the response and the fine hints it contains.

With regard to the OERLIKON Welding machines I'd like to tell you a little story.

I agree with what you have said, I had the same impression when I have worked with them at that time :-).

What I did not know that time was that both the power stack as well as the main processor unit of the GMA-pulse-machines and TIG-inverters were manufactured by the company I am working currently with, since approx. 10 years!

OERLIKON was "purchased" then by the French SAF which is a subsidiary of AIR LIQUIDE.

SAF intended understandably to sell their own welding systems and equipment, so they did.

That was the point in time when the machines and their welding behaviour became a bit more "French" Style (no offense against our French colleagues)!

I left the company...

Now - as mentioned - I am with those ones who have manufactured the subcomponents of the former OERLIKON Inverters.

Amazing story but true! :-)

All the Best to You!
Stephan

Edit:

P.S. Sorry reddoggoose for misusing your interesting topic by having told this private story!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 08:11 Edited 08-17-2007 08:14
Usually on thicker (Ex: schedule 40 & up pipe) members of joints in the 300 series grade, and it all depends on the grades of stainless, diameters, etc. :) Even some larger schedule 10 diameters may need a slight amount of preheat if the environmetal conditions are not cooperating!!!

Chuck could elaborate more as would jeff regarding their own knowledge & experiences???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 16:40
rdg, Henry,
This I think is really a toughy. Its one of them dependers. Depends on the alloy, depends on the service, depends on the thickness, epends on how much distortion youneed to remedy (youwillnot get rid of it all for sure-at least not in my experience), etc., etc.
Certainly reducing temperature gradients is going to reduce distortion, or at least the amplitude of distortion in the immediate area of the joint.
But along with the reduced temp gradient is reduced cooling times. And issues such as sigma, Mo segragation, coring, carbide precipitation, etc. needs to be considered.
If your talking about 304/308 then the Mo seg is not an issue. And if you are really over alloyed for your service then you can probably have some lax on the the carbides and coring. If the service is not mechanically challenged then sigma may not be an issue (sigma nucleation times being extended with non Mo grades).
This technique will work. And it is not uncommon as Henry indicated. But for me its a question of customizing your application of it, and moderation.
For all high alloys with complicated chemistries any time you do something to gain an advantage somewhere else you lose something. Balance and moderation is the ticket, and understanding fully your alloy, your application and your service requirements.
Parent - - By chuck meadows (***) Date 08-17-2007 17:02
The type of preheat needs to be considered. Using a regular oxy/acetylene torch can induce unwanted carbon. And, like Jeff said, the amount of heat and the time at temperature can lead to various intermetllic phases. Unfortunatley, distortion should be considered before starting the job, and using appropriate welding processes and welding sequences to eliminate as much distortion as possible. SS does not like preheating.

Chuck
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 18:42
Chuck,
"SS does not like preheating."
Its August. I don't either.
Jon loves it in January though.
Parent - - By reddoggoose (**) Date 08-17-2007 20:39
I think the material is a 316 SS. Don't know the geometry or size. I agree that preheating with a torch probably is not the preferred method. I was thinking more along the lines of using an oven if part size and geometry would allow, with about 200 degree F preheat. This will let the whole part to come to temperature uniformly. As for the method of cooling I would think an air cool would be all right???

Any thoughts???
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 20:48
rdg,
Cooling from preheat won't be a problem in and of itself since you are well below any transformations, exept that it will reduce the efficiency of heat sink from higher temps and the 316 w/Mo time temp relationship for intermetallic nucleation is accelerated. Is this important? Don't know. Depends on your service. Its an issue in need of consideration though. Ultimately, IMO, there is nothing inherently wrong with what you are askng about. It is just in need of some real engineering to be applied to the service intended.
Parent - By reddoggoose (**) Date 08-20-2007 17:16
Thanks to everyone. I appreciate everybody taking a moment to lend a hand.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / controlling stainless distortion

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