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Up Topic Welders and Inspectors / Education & Training / 7018 root pass?
- - By Harley5150 (*) Date 08-20-2007 23:54
I've been asked about taking a pipe test 6G using 7018 as a root pass then all the way out on 6" pipe any suggestions?  I've welded lots of pipe with a 5P stringer but never 7018.  Any advice would be appreciated. 

thanks
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 08-21-2007 00:38
Chill ring? Taken those tests several times! Never 7018 open root, on pipe, although I'd like to ry it!
Parent - By Harley5150 (*) Date 08-21-2007 01:24
no chill ring.. If you don't mind me asking.. In what application would you use a chill ring?
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 08-21-2007 01:04
Use a squarewave AC machine set at maximum "dig/arc force" and amperage set to the travel speed and 7018 open root welds pretty easy.
Parent - - By Harley5150 (*) Date 08-21-2007 01:19
sounds great 357, but I've got an SA-200, no square wave AC here.. so any other suggestions?
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 08-21-2007 14:57
Set your 200 range selection for maximum or near maximum position on the fine current adjustment for the desired amperage and to get maximum open circuit/no arc voltage.
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 08-21-2007 17:01
Wouldn't using AC mean a change in an Essential Variable?
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 08-21-2007 17:23
You are absolutely correct ac vs. dc is an essential variable. Include it and qualify the procedure. FYI if the customer wants a low hydrogen weld deposit all the way out. They have the choice of GTAW, GMAW with solid or metal core wires, maybe FCAW if used with a low hydrogen wire and SMAW with the E-XX15, 16, 18, 28 or 48 electrodes. Tensile strengths can be had with any filler metal. Not so for low hydrogen deposits.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-21-2007 02:04
Hello Harley5150, I would be curious to see the WPS on this one. Typically, in my experience, when E7018 is utilized for an open root application it is also back-gouged or back-ground upon completion of the welding and then re-welded from the root side(hardly possible on a pipe weld of any sort). I won't say that it can't be done, but I would question the soundness of the root deposit. I'll be interested to hear from others on whether this is an industry accepted practice. Regards, aevald
Parent - By Harley5150 (*) Date 08-21-2007 02:14
me too, like I was saying, they just asked me about it... seems like if they wanted a higher tensile on the pipe.. they would use an 70 or 8010 root?  but who knows.. I'm sure its an engineer thing... lol  in the world of vessel welding I've done more than my share of running a root and gouging the back side.. I'm not a big fan.. lol  with todays inverter technology you can do so much to control the "dig" they have almost done away with gouging in the bigger more advanced shops.  Thanks for the reply and I will keep you updated..

Harley
Parent - - By medicinehawk01 (**) Date 08-21-2007 09:43
I have passed this procedure before on 6" sched-80. Use 1/8" gap (perfect if possible) w/ a nickel land (no more or less) .......Use 1/8" - 7018 at about 104-108 amps........hold it in tight and do not let the keyhole get bigger than 1/8" or you are f---ed. It will take some practice, but it can be done. Looks like a tig root (once slag is removed on the i.d.). Feather only the edges of the tack or you are likely to blow a hole.
Good luck with that.
Be well.
Hawk
Parent - - By Harley5150 (*) Date 08-21-2007 23:22
thanks man.. sounds like good advice.. I'm hoping you ran some bigger rod to fill that thing up, that would have been a long day...

you have the best advice so far.. let me ask why in the hell would a company want you to weld with that procedure?  I can't understand why?

thanks again man..
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 08-22-2007 00:38
Sour service application. Amine and some hydrogen. Welding up in the racks where you may not be able to TIG or out in a cotton field welding up a compressor bottle. Several of the mid-stream companies use this procedure. I test about 10 -15 welders a month. Fail rate around 90% the first time. The company I work for requires a 2 inch sch 80 and a 8 inch schedule 80. That qualifies you for all thickness and all diameters. With a SA200 somewhere on that machine is a place the 7018 will run. If they let you put in a 3/32 7016 bead. Kobe is the one most of the guys out here run. You want the land and opening to be a little wider than the bead rod. If you are running a 3/32 you want to be able to drop the 3/32 through the gap. Same with a 1/8. On the 6 or 8 inch sch 80 a 1/8 will be faster and the fewer starts and stops you have the better. Putting your tacks  at 12, 3, 6 and 9 you should be able to run from tack to tack with one rod. Change the rod run to the next tack. A hint on the gap. If it scares you it is so wide, then you are about right. As for the land, some welders leave a smaller land and put the bevels closer. Others take a wider land and open the gap. On every welder I hav tested who passed this test on the first try, they all took a fat land and a oh my god opening. For 3/32" start at 130 and 45 and work down first then up to find out where the machine runs the best. On 1/8" 190 and 50 again work down then up. Most welders running SA 200 seem to be 190 and 40-45. Also be aware if there is a time limit on the test. The company I work for has one and it gets about as many as IP on the welders first try. If you are a fairly proficient welder, 3 or 4 coupons and you should have it down. It is more mental than anything when you get the heat figured out. And the heat on a SA 200 is the key. Let me stress again, somewhere on that SA 200 is a sweet spot for running a open root bead with 7018. Find it and master it. The welders I test, when they pass it, know how special they are. Good luck and let us know how you do. And dont be afraid to bust this test. There are some #1 welders who cannot do this. Again, a big part of it is mental.
BABRT's
Parent - - By medicinehawk01 (**) Date 08-22-2007 13:48
Really detailed info, Big K. I do not know why they would have you run that procedure except to see IF you really can weld. I know alot of guys say how good they are welding pipe using tig root or 6010 root and you bring up 7018 as a root option, honest people let tell you if they have ever tried it and acknowledge it is tough. I had a State pipe certification where it was mandatory to run 7018 all the way out, so I learned how to do it...............now the same state gives you the option to use 6010 or 7018 for the root. Go figure. Some times I'll burn thru a 6010 root with my 7018 hot pass because I ground it too deep, but if the key hole does not open up too drastically, I just carry on. Usually passes x-ray.
It's not like I would want to run a 7018 root simply because it is harder to do especially when a tig root using E70-S rod is a sure thing, imo.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 08-22-2007 21:36
If you have to do a weld with PWHT you can either tig the root or 7018. SAMW offers some flexibility you cannot get with TIG. If you work where there is a lot of sour service or amine piping this will make sense. If does separate the welders form the weldors though. ANd it is nothing but heat control. You can fight it and fight it, and when you settle in, it almost runs itself.
BABRT's
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 08-26-2007 14:16
In one situatuion in which I had to qualify the restricted access cuased the need. We welded on tangent tube waterwall tubes which were welded together at the tangent point to the next tube. A weld called a window weld (http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/WindowWelds.htm) is made and it was difficult to get access. A stick rod worked well.
Parent - - By Sean (**) Date 08-28-2007 17:45
I have done a couple of procedures using a 7018 root.  If you can use a 7018-G rod, it will help.  Technique is a big issue with a 7018 rod in the 6G.  The other posts describe the joint preps... it does take practice and I agree with the rest that this is a mental and practice issue.  Here on the east coast of Canada in order to weld offshore, structural T, K, Ys you have to qualify in the 6G with some added difficulty.  The joint is a single bevel groove weld with a restriction plate!  As for mechanical's they turn out quite well and with the proper SMAW 7018 consumable you can even get CVNs to exceed the minimums of 40J@-40°C.

Sean
Parent - - By Harley5150 (*) Date 10-16-2007 23:32
Thanks guys all great responses.. I cut up some coupons the other day I will let you know how it goes..

you are all appreciated very much

Harley
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-27-2007 22:37
I've passed the 6G on pipe for ASME (2 inch extra heavy wall) and 6GR for the AWS TK&Y for AWS D1.1 with E7018 root and fill. It's been a while but it seems like it was a standard fit up, root opening equal to the diameter of the rod and the root face equal to the root opening. The root will close up as you weld unless you use very large tack welds, which should be feathered with a grinder. As mentioned, it's nice to start and stop on the tacks. Grind the stops and starts.

Don't whip the electrode. You move it to the leading edge of the puddle and then back into the puddle, but not beyond the puddle like you would with E6010. Both tests used vertical upward progression and you maintain a keyhole.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welders and Inspectors / Education & Training / 7018 root pass?

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