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- - By swsweld (****) Date 09-24-2007 05:24
Specs call for socket welds to get PT but engineer wants them to get RT instead. Is this a waste of radiation or is it worthwhile? I do not care from a quality standpoint but we are paying for the NDT either way so I prefer PT as specs require. Can RT detect root fusion on SW? Can you get a good read on the weld or is it only good for checking gap? The RT tech that shot our butt welds was not 100% sure on the root fusion question as he does not normally (never)shoot SW's. BTW all of our butt welds passed RT.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-24-2007 10:11
We have had lots of problems with socket welds. Incorrect gap as well as lack of root penetration and lack of fusion.. RT is highly recommended especially if you are not using gap-o-lets. Not neccessarily 100% but at least a random sampling.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-24-2007 19:08
How much gap is allowed or required AFTER welding. Is that addreessed in the code anywhere.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 14:29
PT is not going to show you root fusion either. RT will see some of it. RT will see the root gap as NDT III stated, something else the PT will not show. I've shot many a socket weld for gap, and it works just fine, just have to make sure you have enough latitude in the shot to pick up the gap and the thickness transition.
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 09-24-2007 14:41
To NDTIII and CWI555,

Do you have to shoot two shots for each joint, or can you get what you want with a single oblique shot?

We are headed for a project that is speced as B31.3, but the owner has specified more stingent NDE (including RT of socket welds).

Thanks.

Charles
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 15:20
3 shots superimposed 0, 60, 120 for full coverage. You may get away with 0, 90 superimposed but it's not going to cover 100%. Just depends on what your after and your project requirments.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-24-2007 20:02
Good morning all,
We have been regularly shooting socket welds on my current project to determine the presence of a gap but with a slight difference.
B31.3 Fig 328.5.2C shows a minimum gap before welding of 1/16 (1.6 mm) which should be checked before welding.(There is no tolerance for after welding - this subject has been dealt with extensively in a previous posting.)
However, our engineer/s have in their wisdom decided that it will be 1.6 mm minimum after welding and RT will be performed after welding.This is written into the specifications. So, you could start with a 1.8 mm gap which complies with B31.3 but after welding the shrinkage has taken it down to 1mm gap. This then does not comply with our specifications and must be cut off.I am pulling my hair out.
There is another posting on the forum regarding specifications and the way they are written and interpreted. What do they say about a little knowledge can be dangerous ?
We have got weld encroachments from ASME VIII being applied to API 650 Tanks and B31.3 piping.We have got production test plates from ASME VIII being applied to API 650 and B31.3 piping.We have got B31.3 percentages of RT applied to API 650 tanks.
The person/s who wrote the specifications should be taken out and shot (after a public flogging). Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
Getting back to the original subject, one RT shot is taken for the gap and this will show any lack of root fusion if it is evident. If the project requirements ask for full RT the 3 shots would be required as noted by Gerald.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-25-2007 00:47 Edited 09-25-2007 01:18
It is typically a specification. To my recollection, I cannot recall any code that mandates it. The tolerance is as you say 1/16" of an inch before welding.
I have seen a lot of this on aerospace check valves, and on occasion B31.1, 31.3, and a few cases in Section XI (why I have no idea).

I wrote earlier in regards to how you would get the shot in only, not that I agree with it. If your QC department doesn't know how to scribe a line and measure this fit up, then you need another QC type, shooting it with radiography is asking for trouble. Especially with a tolorance that you have described.
Given the typical UG being <.020" (<.508mm) the radiographer is going to go to that limit if he can, and that difference in UG will account for a large portion of your tolorance if they are shooting the minimum distance. Then there is orientation, if your not perfectly on top of it, you'll blow a few .100mm's into it, which will also make the gap appear to be short. Then there is the small matter of source size. The source cross section is going to be larger than your gap tolorance unless you've had a special source delivered with a tiny cross section (which I doubt is the case). If it is as I am assuming, you'll probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of .100" to .168" on the source cross section, which will be larger than your tolorance, which can be problematic in itself. All in all I agree, whoever wrote your specs needs a public flogging, and a source tube enema to refresh their memory as to the business end of radiography.

I've been on the radiographers side of this and on your side, and it sucks on both sides.

Don't mistake my earlier comments to mean agreement with it, it was a statement meant to say it works if needed, but needs to be judged properly, I hope you were not applying the little knowledge can be dangerous to my post?

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-25-2007 01:51
Gerald,
Definitely not.
I value your knowledge and experience.
My problem is engineers who do not have a lot of welding knowledge making out they do and writing up specifications that ultimately are doomed to failure. We (CWIs) then have to try and police the specifications even though we know they are a joke.
On a recent job ($400 million Nickel Refinery Upgrade) I refused to take the job because of how poorly the specifications had been written. One example was that all welding must comply with ASME B31.3 and/or AS 4041. AS 4041 is the Australian equivalent to B31.3 but they have totally different acceptance criterias so it would be impossible to work to and/or.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-24-2007 22:14
My opinion is that RT of socket welds is unnecessary and overkill.  The weld quality "required" by the code is based on visual or surface examination (PT or MT) methods. Tight crack-like defects on the root or toe of the weld are very hard or impossible to find with RT.  The codes typically apply a joint efficiency factor based on the NDE method performed, so any defects not detected by visual or surface NDE are already factored in.  As previously stated, the minimum gap for socket welds is required "before" welding and there is no minimum gap required after welding.  I see it as a can of worms waiting to be opened.

If you are concerned about root penetration, qualify the welders separately on socket welds and do a macro to check root penetration.  If you are concerned about root gap after welding, increase the minimum in your welding procedure to 3/32" before welding and it won't ever be a problem.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 09-24-2007 22:57
Marty,
I agree totally with you.
However, as the CWI I do not have any say on the requirements in the specifications.
I am just the policeman who has to enforce the requirements whether I agree with them or not.
On this same job we have got 10% RT on an open ended water line and 5% RT on Sulphuric Acid lines, figure that one out.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 09-25-2007 03:25 Edited 09-25-2007 23:31
Thanks for all the info everyone. I should have noted it is B31.1. The gap is 1/16" before and I have not seen anything in the specs about after welding. The point is no RT is suppose to be performed on our SW. The contract specifications call for PT only. I know that SW are sometimes shot for gap but I was not sure if root fusion was clearly detectable w/RT. Now I know that it is. A recent thread had all welders busting a fillet weld test due to lack of fusion at the root. If we are forced to RT SW I did not want to underestimate the root fusion. It is not a given. The engineer is a smart man but not that up on welding knowledge as Shane noted. I bid the job for RT on butt welds and PT on SW as stated in the specs. The engineer verbally changed that at the prepatory meeting. My course of action will be to politely ask for extra money for the change from PT to RT as you know that will be much more expensive. That will probably end the RT on SW.

Another extra is he wants the welds in the valve pits to be VT. The specs do not require this. It only requires NDE on welds that are underground. After learning that I am a CWI he said I could do the VT. Specs call for independant inspection agency on PT & RT. As I stated the specs do not require any NDE in the (12)valve pits approx 600 welds. Would you consider that a conflict of interest if I did the VT on our own welds since technically they are not even required to be VTed?
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-25-2007 10:00 Edited 09-25-2007 10:13
Apparently some of you have never seen the results of a catostrophic failure due to socket welds in hydrocarbon service. People can and have been killed.

ASME B31.3 only addresses gap prior to welding.  It does not address the gap after welding. We usually look for any gap after welding up to 3-4 mm. It's really a judgement call. Depends on the vibrations in the line. If the gap is too excessive it can weaken the joint. We usually shoot one shot (non code) so no IQI is required, but trust me if you have weld defects, you will usually see them while shooting for gap with one shot.

If you are concerned about weld defects, then shoot 2 shots. But I believe that is not necessary. If you use gap-o-lets then you have nothing to worry about, but if you don't and fitup is not a hold point, then you really should consider doing a random sampling (5-10%). I also believe even if you are required to use gap-0-lets you should still perform random shots in case they forget to use them.  Believe me you do not want a socket weld to fail under pressure in hydrocarbon service.

The client has the right to require additional NDT on socket welds and is smart if they do.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 09-25-2007 14:10
An engineering evaluation such as RT'ing sockets is certainly a cost risk evaluation just like everything else. If the client wants it, the client gets it. Though often the client, ignorant of the costs, backs down when informed.
As for the risk, if you have a gap you're good to go. Too much gap needs to be quite extreme to be problematic.
And certainly the service intended needs to be carefully considered. Some are much more critical than others.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-25-2007 14:35
Is there anything you can refer me too about socket weld failures resulting from excess gap?

Gerald
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-25-2007 22:11
I would be interested in any technical data or reports you can provide on socket weld failures in hydrocarbon service, such as base material type, service conditions and the cause of failure.  References to published articles or papers would be great, but any details you can provide would be appreciated.
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-26-2007 00:02 Edited 09-26-2007 00:13
Fortunately we haven't had socket welds fail due to gap, that I am aware of, because we performed random RT on them. However, a major Middle East Oil company has experienced catostrophic failures in the past due to LOF and now that you mention it, incorrect filler  metal, which could not be found with RT. That brings up another subject. PMI and QC coverage.

I don't keep documentation of these specific incidents. It's not in my best interest nor is not permitted by my clients.

If you think it's a waste of time and money, that's up to you. I am only giving my opinion just as everyone else. Besides, what oil company would allow anyone to publish or even divulge specific confidential information such as that?

If it were up to me, unless the contractor had a system in place to verify gap, I would insist on random sampling.

But now that you asked, here are just a few links to some information regarding socket welds.

http://www.hydrocarbononline.com/Content/news/article.asp?Bucket=Article&DocID=%7B728A9C74-AC15-11D3-9A76-00A0C9C83AFB%7D&VNETCOOKIE=NO

http://www.structint.com/tekbrefs/NapaVibPapr.PDF

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V4D-4KJV3F8-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=608a3d982320875e1d3db08eff8c89bf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4400/is_200002/ai_n15309845
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-26-2007 04:09
One of the references you posted said

"Other conclusions drawn from this program are that the code required axial gap in socket welds
(1/16") appears to have little or no effect on high cycle vibration fatigue resistance (thermal expansion
effects were not part of the test), and that post weld heat treatment appears to increase the fatigue
resistance of standard Code specimens."

The 1/16" gap exists at fitup. It reduces to nothing nearly after welding. What acceptance criteria would be used. Is there noticeable "swelling" visible on a radiograph?

I did some 1/2" SS pipe welds years ago on a nuc plant in which the adjacent socket welds were in the shot. The gap appeared to be 1/32" or so. We had to cut it out. This seemed to me as a waste of time, money and radiation exposure.  I am sure there are cases in which the residual stress from the pipe bottoming in the socket as the weld contracts can lead to failures. I would just think this would be something that would need to be addressed in the future if it is truly a problem.

I appreciate the links. I also appreciate the contributions you and many others make here.

Gerald
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-27-2007 00:40
Thanks for the links.  Three were centered around the research that Structural Integrity Associates did for EPRI, which our company co-sponsored.  The last was along the same lines  of fillet weld geometry, but included finite element analysis.  In all of these articles the main concern was failures due to vibration fatigue which initiate either at the root of the fillet or the toe of the fillet on the pipe side of the weld.  We are very familiar with these types of failures in power stations.  If you do find any info on other types of socket weld failures, such as insufficient gap, please let me know.  The only other mention of insufficient gap as a failure mode that I have seen is in Helmut Thielsch's book on "Defects and Failures in Piping", but there is not much detail or supporting evidence.

Thanks again.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-27-2007 13:56
Hey Marty,

I cut out a few 1/2" socket welds on a CHV shipalt that the socket weld was shown on the butt joint with no gap. I tried  then to explain the purpose of the gap before fitup and had no success. 20 years later I think it is still misunderstood.

Gerald
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 09-28-2007 03:36
I also recall having to do separate socket, groove and canopy seal weld quals and the NDT lab checking the socket gap AFTER sectioning for the macros.  They would reject it if it was not at least 1/16" after welding, so we always set it to 3/32" before welding so that it would be sure to pass their scrutiny.  But it was the same with NS250-1500 & MIL-STD-278 - the gap had to be 1/16" BEFORE welding.  I think folks tend to read too much into the requirements when they don't understand the technical basis.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-26-2007 23:43
To all,
Sometimes I have to take a step back and remember the glass is also half full. I've had a hell of a time at work the past few weeks with a bunch of yahooos who want to twist the code if not forgo it all together due to being behind schedule. That being settled and the aforementioned yahoooos re-mediated permanently, I've re-read some of my recent post, and if they sound a bit harsh I apologize, it was not meant that way.

NDTIII
With that out of the way, I'll re-attempt this post. I've seen failures in hydrocarbon service, among others. It's not a pretty sight, and you are correct in that. However; it is my opinion that the use of RT is a third best option. First being gap-o-lets, second, proper QC. RT is subject to interpretation, and subject to shot quality for accurate measurement. If your gap is critical, the use of RT is a mistake. Proper QC as a minimum should be performed, as well as use of gap-o-lets where possible. I could pop a shot on a 1.5" socket at 10" and give the film to three different interpreters and I'll get three different measurements. Granted they will be somewhat close, but they will all be different, and where it's critical, that difference may well and has in my experience mattered.

In short RT is better than nothing and is viable, but it's a crutch in lieu of proper QC/design that should have never needed use.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-27-2007 05:56 Edited 09-27-2007 06:03
Gerald, I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks. In fact I mentioned gap-o-lets and QC Hold Points several tmes and I agree. If you can trust your Quality System, then RT is not needed. I just have a diificult time trusting QC 100% of the time when they work directly for the fabricator.

My main concern with gaps in socket welds is not insufficient gap as much as excessive gap. I have seen socket welds with almost no insertion into the socket at all. Maybe 1/16". In a high vibration area, I believe this could weaken the joint and potentially cause a failure.

Apparently, the studies that took place have ignored this scenario.

I think some people. and I don't mean anyone here. Only people I have worked with fail to take socket welds seriously sometimes. "It's just a socket weld."

As you said, there have been failures for various reasons and people have been killed.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 14:38
I would be very interested myself in information, links, articles, or evidence, of socket weld failures not associated with weld toe fatigue issues.
thanks
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-27-2007 15:02
The "Excess Gap" scenario in which the insertion is thought to "add strength" to the joint also evades me.
In my opinion, what happens beyond the root of the weld, internal to the socket has little or no effect on the strength of the joint. Under pressure, the majority of the stress is trying to open the pipe up along the centerline (hoop stress) and is NOT trying to bend the pipe in the socket.

A properly supported pipe would not have bending stress of sufficient magnitude to cause a fillet weld to yield and thus allow the inserted piece of pipe to come in contact with the ID of the socket.

That excess gap MAY be a problem for buildup of corrosion and wear products or turbulence.

I think bead contour, residual stress, etc... all affect the strength of the joint in relationship to severe vibration. Too small of a gap could possibly increase residual stress but it appears by one of the above referenced studies that the effect was negligable. An excess gap would affect nothing in relationship to the ability for the joint to hold pressure and if a bending moment is introduced to the point that the weld metal yields and allows the diametrical clearnce to be 0, you have other problems.

Of course with all things, I hope to learn more from my comments and the responses and feel free to correct me in those areas in which I may be in error.

Gerald
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 15:45
"That excess gap MAY be a problem for buildup of corrosion and wear products or turbulence."

I think with that statement, you nailed the primary concerns with excessive gap. This is especially true where MIC is of concern.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-27-2007 16:05
Would MIC exist regardless of how big the gap is? I am not familar with the mechanism's of that type of corrosion.

Thanks
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 20:27
Microbe induced corrosion is not dependant on a gap to exist. However, for reasons of turbulance, a large gap would be a productive environment for it's existance and initiation due to the flow characteristics that would be found in a large gap. I participated in a study years back on this matter, and that was one of the findings at the time. However; there are other factors involved in the initiation that all have to come together, so the wide gap is not stand alone.
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-28-2007 03:43
I have seen butt welds in SCH 10 untreated water systems develop MIC in areas of incomplete joint penetration (very tight gaps).  Once it finds any crevice, it tends to be protected from any biocides that are injected to kill it.  MIC would occur regardless of the socket gap if the microbes are present and they have something to feed on.

http://www.structint.com/tekbrefs/sib96148/sib96148.html
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-28-2007 04:36
The biocides cannot typically get them out of deeper crevices as they tend to be more protected. When it comes to socket welds, leaving a large gap is like opening up a Hilton for the little b#####s. However it is also as you say, possible for them to exist in even the tightest gap. They require metal, typically oxygen (not in all cases), water, and nutrients. There are also several forms of them, aerobic, fungi, bacteria to name the primary three. Each has it's own characteristics, they all will totally screw your piping system if you let them.
Their behaviour is also tied to their type, some are Sulfur reducing bacteria, some produce the other forms such as acid producing fungi which can create the bacteria and SRBs.

MIC is for the most part a poorly understood potential failure mechanism, if it's even known. I cannot tell you the number of dumb looks I've gotten when I tell someone their piping is exhibiting signs of tubercels and that their pipe is being destroyed by something living, they give you that look like you just stepped out of E.T.s ship. (this particular incidence was found via UT, verified by a cut out and laboratory testing, and they still didn't believe it)

A for instance in which one form doesn't need the oxy environment like the others: these are anaerobic bacteria such as clostridium which typically does not exist in open water systems, although they may exist in certain closed loops. They can exist in a gas transmission line and can and have caused failures of the same. Tell someone bacteria caused the failure in their gtl and they'll give you that same look typically.

Most likely places for MIC is threaded couplings, followed by certain types of valves, pressure gages, and any other notch they can hide in.

In short it could be damn near anywhere, but there are some more likely spots to find them.

EPRI and API both have done extensive research on the matter, as well as some utilities. There are reams of information out there on it, but trying to convince the uninitiated MIC is killing their systems is like trying to tell a blind man the sky is blue.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By Aspirate (**) Date 09-29-2007 22:34
excess gap, MIC buildup, nothing ductile that can fill the gap after welding
what other methods are more effective than using a socket? lol.
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-30-2007 12:10
This is the type of excessive gap I am talking about. I have seen it. Not often but I have seen it. Now don't you think this joint would be weakened under high vibrations? Now  I'm finished discussing this issue.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-01-2007 15:18
I have to admit I would think that very thing, and would hold that it isn't good practice. But why? There's nothing wrong with the logic it seems. But I also have to come down on he side argued by Marty in this one, and defer until someone can provide some evidence that there are failures happening based upon this argued deficiency.
For me there are lots of things in this industry that logic says ain't right. I've been myself subject to a few misconceptions of logic due to lack of proper data. I think we all have been. The logic is only as good as the data feeding it.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-01-2007 18:31
Your kinda of inbetween a rock and a hard place on this one. Clients typically don't want their dirty laundry aired in public. To prove this as NDTIII has already stated would require release of confidential information. It wouldn't take to much of that before your run out on your ear, so I can understand why he does not release the documentation. I have several such cases myself, and will not question it for that reason. Logic doesn't always meet the test of reality.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 10-02-2007 02:49 Edited 10-02-2007 02:58
Quite often the contract documents/specifications will say that work will be performed in accordance to industry standards. The excessive gap on a socket fit (as shown above) would be like overlapping a slip on flange over the pipe only 1/4". I've never seen a tolerance for a slip on flange fit up but it is standard to extend the flange approx.1/2" beyond the pipe and weld both ID & OD. As a fitter/welder I would always engage the pipe into the socket at least 50%. 1/16" is standard. The excessive fit up is not standard. If the "industry standard" phrase is in place I would not accept the excessive gap as an inspector.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-02-2007 13:38
You would reject something without any definitive statement of its rejectability, and without any evidence of it being a problem?
Just by your saying "the excessive fit up is not standard", does not make the concern and industry standard. And i t helps little to refer to slip on flanges.
And if the problem is as prevelent and rampant as indicated, it could certainly be argued that the 'actual' industry standard is far more lax than many would wish to admit.
And again, if we have a concern, where are the failures? If we have a concern how is it the governing bodies and code committees have seemingly refused to supply us with a definitive response? Or have they actually done so we just refuse to admit it?
Are we really arguing to reject somethig because we don't like it?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-02-2007 20:24
I took an ASME B31.3 seminar a few years ago and I asked the instructor how much engagement is required when inserting a pipe into the socket. His reply was that as long as there is no burn-through when the fillet weld is made, the joint is "good".

The instructor is a member of several ASME pipe code committees and I have no reason to question his reply. It startled me, but upon reflection, it isn't the purpose of the socket to reinforce the pipe. The primary force a fillet weld has to resist is the axial loads from the force developed by area of the pipe ID times internal fluid pressure.

As for the gap at the bottom of the socket, it has served it's purpose once the weld has solidified and shrinkage has taken place and any contractions that occur as it cools to ambient temperature is accommodated. If it doesn't crack during the welding operation, it probably won't ever crack.

A welding engineer from a Nuke in Missouri  did a presentation on the fatigue life of socket welds and it included some testing of sockets welded without utilizing a gap as well as some with a gap. Fatigue life was extended if an unequal legged fillets were used to secure the pipe to the socket, and the use of the gap didn't seem to influence the number of root cracks in carbon steel or stainless steel base metals. Before anyone starts quoting me on this subject, let's make it clear that this is my recollection and subject to a memory that is less than perfect.

I also have a photograph that I use in my presentation that involved a 26 pass socket welds made with GTAW securing copper nickel pipe stubs to copper nickel valve bodies where the requirement for a gap were not met, i.e., no gap before welding; each of the pipe stubs were in different stages of cracking when they were cut and sectioned. 

It is my conjecture that if the base metals, such as plain carbon steel and austenitic stainless steel, have sufficient ductility, the gap isn't a serious concern. However, those base metals that have limited ductility, such as the copper nickels and aluminum alloys, are sensitive to cracking if the gap is omitted. Whatever my personal feelings are, the code requirements are the minimum requirements that must be met. Until the codes change their requirements, the gap before welding shall be no less than 1/16 inch. Once the pipe is welded, a gap may or may not be present. If the weld isn't found to be cracked when it is radiographed, the joint is good with or without a gap present. If the client is concerned that the gap is present before welding, then fit-up and in-process VT should be required. The oversight will be more cost effective than radiography because there are many other important things to watch for besides whether the gap at the bottom of the socket is maintained.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-02-2007 20:52
Wow. Wish I'd said that.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 10-03-2007 01:32
All specs that I bid work on do not have the "industry standard" phrase in it. The ones that do include it, I think put it there as a catch all for minor "infractions" For instance, to my knowledge B31.1 &3  does not adress swing joints or pipe lines run diagonally across a room instead of parallel and perpendicular to the building. But you will be rerouting those lines when the mechanical engineer walks the job and you do not have a good reason for the route you took. No code to back him up, he does not like it because it is unprofessional (not industry standards) If a RT on a socket weld indicates a 3/4" gap when the spec calls for a 1/16" gap the same arguement could be made. The large gap such as the one in NDTIII's post could be detrimental to the system. It would cause more turbulance and if water treatment is not properly maintained the gap may cause growth that would restrict flow. I've cut lines that have been in service a while and some look new and some look terrible. If the slip on flange is butt welded instead of fillet welded it is not done to industry standard. It is designed to slip on the pipe. The mech. engineer or inspector should not allow this practice. These examples do not prove that there will be failure or there will be problems. I don't think you have to have evidence that there willl be a problem to reject something. quote"Are we really going to reject something because we don't like it?" No. But if the reason something is rejected falls under the umbrella of "not in accordance with industry standards" specific code verbage and tolerances may not be needed to reject something. As a contractor I have been subjected to this before. Usually it does no good to argue with the engineer on minor things as he will not accept the finished product until you comply.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-03-2007 13:33
Tim,
The engineer has the perogative to change things he doesn't like, and the responsibility to change things he thinks are either improper or unviable. Thats what engineers do. An inspector doesn't. An inspectors perogative and responsibility is to verify compliance with what the engineer decides, the codes, the specs, etc.
And I keep reading this 'could be a problem' terminology used despite the fact that there has yet to be posted any evidence that it actually ever is a problem.
Conjecture from non engineers don't count.

And again, is this really a defense of the argument that inspectors shall have the perogative to impose a requirement if it is their 'opinion' (despite evidence to the contrary) that something "could" be a problem?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-04-2007 03:45 Edited 10-04-2007 03:49
Jeff,

I don't often take exception to things you state, but this last post warrants it.
This is not missouri, the argument that just because someone doesn't present "evidence" does not automatically make it untrue, this is not a court of law.
"And I keep reading this 'could be a problem' terminology used despite the fact that there has yet to be posted any evidence that it actually ever is a problem."

I must admit to taking exception to that statement. Any inspector, or engineer for that matter that airs the dirty laundry of major utilities, oil companies, and other multinational corporations on a regular basis will sooner or later find themselves in the soup line wishing they'd keep their mouths shut. Not only do actions like that expose the said company to legal risk, it can be used against them by their competitors.

I've worked many a contract were I signed agreements to keep my mouth shut, proprietary information is just that proprietary, and exposing that information in a public manner is not only unethical, it's sometimes illegal. If you've worked DOD and DOE secure projects and you run your mouth about what you see, you run the risk of being made the involuntary guest of the U.S. government in a cozy little 6x6 room. Do the same for a major international and you could find yourself and or your company in the middle of a lawsuit.

As for "Conjecture from non engineers don't count", us non engineers who've been around a while have witnessed a lot of things. To summarily dismiss the relevant experience of anyone, much less an experienced inspector or welder is a bit foolish. NDTIII has stated he's witnessed these failures, I have stated the same, are you saying that due to not presenting "evidence" "edited for content" that we are not telling the truth?

Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-04-2007 13:49
Gerald,
My post was not so much a summary dismissal of inspector experience as much as it was an indictment of the all too common occurance of inspectors attempting to act in a capacity of an engineer. Frequent posts in this very forum can tesitfy to the commonality of such thinking and occurances.
Due process (if your parden the legal language in light of your post), in my opinion, were an inspector to have a concern over something, (such as large gaps in socket welds) is to submit, or argue, his concern to the appropriate engineer, not summarily reject the practice when there is no written prohibition for doing so. This practice I support whole heartedly and testifies to my opinion of the value of experienced inspectors.
It also provides a reasonable mechanism to not only prevent not so experienced inspectors from asserting an assumed authority where they shouldn't, but also provides eyes for the engineer on production practices, since enigneers are certainly imperfect themselves.
By the way, some of my best friends, and valued employees, are experienced inspectors. :>)

One other thing, the lack of information can not wholely be attributed to industry secrecy. Every single day reams of information, in tech articles, conferences, seminars, journals, industry newsletters, etc., discuss in open format failures of all sorts. In fact, I don't remember ever going to a seminar or reading an industry journal without some presentation or discussion of failures. It is the most primary concern of all industry. In fact, I would venture to guess (though I am not alawyer) that keeping secret something that threatens the health and safety of the public is itself illegal.
So I suppose that it then must be asked why is it that socket weld failures seem to be the only ones selected for a more robust and efficient form of secrecy?
And, if people are really dying, if people are really being seriously injured, how efficient could this secrecy be?
I do not believe that signing a secrecy agreement that would conceal information about practices that threaten life and limb would hold up in court. Oh, I'm sure it happens, but to the signatory's legal peril.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-05-2007 05:05 Edited 10-05-2007 05:13
As a partial proof, I did find something of interest publicly documented. It's in API RP 571. 4.2.17 vibration induced fatigue.

"
4.2.17.3 Critical Factors
a) The amplitude and frequency of vibration as well as the fatigue resistance of the components are critical
factors.
b) There is a high likelihood of cracking when the input load is synchronous or nearly synchronizes with the
natural frequency of the component.
c) A lack of or excessive support or stiffening allows vibration and possible cracking problems that usually
initiate at stress raisers or notches."

Since API has listed this, It's reasonably safe to quote it. In one specific incident there was a failure of the socket much like drawing NDTIII provided that I was party to the failure analysis on.
It was determined that the excessive gap created an unstable fluid flow within the socket, setting up harmonic vibrations that eventually cracked the part out which subsequently dramatically failed injuring one worker with burns from the fluid. The power of harmonic vibrations cannot be underscored enough. It was found that there was sufficient support, the weld was made correctly except for the excessive gap, pressures and fluid were per normal and well within tolerance, but due to the slight change in the natural frequency created by the excessive gap and subsequent flow disturbance, it made the difference. Had that socket been made per normal industry standard, it was and still is believed this particular incident would not have happened.

As for this comment:
"And, if people are really dying, if people are really being seriously injured, how efficient could this secrecy be?
I do not believe that signing a secrecy agreement that would conceal information about practices that threaten life and limb would hold up in court."
"for a more robust and efficient form of secrecy"

My reference was to DOD and DOE work. "edited for clarity" simply put, if something is branded a national security matter, the same rules do not apply.

Back in the standard commercial world, the large multinationals do not enjoy the same protection, but they can make your ability to be employed rather difficult.

In the real world, chit happens every day that isn't right, that could be prevented, but for "cost" reasons, is over looked.

As for the inspectors duties, most often there are standard industry practice clauses in contracts, if I see that, I'll stick to it as it's standard to use 1/16". If there is nothing there, I'll sure elevate it to make damn sure the "engineers" who for whatever reason "missed" this, are aware of it, and get their answer in writing.

Early on in my career I've been victim to that "well you never said anything" crap from engineers when they screw up the specs, for which I follow, then somehow there lack of planning and foresight becomes my problem when I follow what they put in writing. I do not play that game with anyone anymore. Therein is the inspectors duty to raise the concern in writing and get an answer in the same, If they (engineers) insist, it's on their heads then, but they are not going to stick me with the silence is acceptance routine again.

I've heard this multiple times in various meetings and projects, and have had it happen to me. It happens with a higher frequency that some realize. For this reason, I keep detailed records of everything I do. 99 percent of which will never see the light of day unless something screws up and the engineers start looking to shift blame. 

That is where I am coming from. Now if your talking about someone making up their own code and specs, thats another story. For some of the same reasons listed above, speaking up without a basis for either an engineer or an inspector can be a career ending decision. For me, my goal is to assure the items meet the minimum AQL as set forth in the codes and standards. If they do not, and the engineer wants it to go anyway, they are going to put that in writing or find themselves some other sucker to do their handy work.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 10-05-2007 03:53
js55, most of my earlier post was in the context of the "industry standard" catch all phrase. As part owner and CWI I would reject the excessive gap on our job (work done by our guys) which is where this thread started. If code required 1/16" min gap I do not think going to the extreme opposite is a good idea. Picture a slip on flange with no overlap making it essentially an open butt weld instead of a fillet weld. Also the picture posted by NDTIII allows for errosion and turbulence that could be avoided if industry standards were followed. In an underground system why take the chance? I might be off base on that example but they call it a slip on for a reason. I'm not trying to be a smart alec. It might be my worker mentality getting in the way of the right conclusion. There are gray areas in this business. How many times have RT interpreters' struggled with the decision to accept or reject a weld. It is there "opinion" based on their experience, training and knowledge that they rely on to make the tough calls. Although inexperienced as a CWI, I've been in the industry since 78' and have learned a few things along the way. That being said, I certianly do not intend to act as the enginere I can't even spell it.

If I work as a CWI in the future I will base my decisions on the compliance to the applicable codes we are working to as effectively as possible. I'm sure that I will be very careful not to reject based only on my opinion. Sometimes the code is ambiguoius and my professional opinion will assist in my decision and when that isn't enough I will seek help from the appropriate person.

I have worked with many good engineers and have a lot of respect for their role in the industry. But I have worked with some that didn't have a clue. Still complied with their decisions. Just today I consulted the Army corp of Eng. and they went with my "opinion" on a slight deviation to the letter of the specs.

js55 I respect and appreciate your imput in this forum
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-05-2007 13:36
Tim,
The idea of you being a smart alec never even entered into my thinking. In fact, many of the best threads in this forum have been generated by the enthusiasm, and yes, even aggressiveness, sometimes sarcasm, with which people have expressed their opinions. It challenges us. And how quickly conversations die when everyone agrees. And how boring.
And on the fillet gap issue the fact that you are an owner gives you the right to impose whatever standard you wish on your fabrication practices, and use whatever justification you think applicable to do so, of course within the requirements of your customers. We all have someone we have to answer to.
I would certainly support the idea of someone imposing requirements that in their opinion are consistent with quality workmanship as opposed to someone who may take a questioning approach, such as what I've argued in this thread, and run negative with it.

Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 10-04-2007 09:50
I cannot see how the variation in socket insertion depth changes the mechanical properties of the weld. I would think situations with high vibrations or dynamil loading could fail prematurely any time a sharp notch is present. The amount beyond the root of the weld seems to me t hat it adds no strength to the weld.

Have a noce day

Gerald
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-05-2007 15:15 Edited 10-05-2007 15:20
This is an interesting thread with some good insight from some very experienced individuals.

Some of the issues raised in this thread "should" have been foreseen by the designer. Concerns with turbulent flow, corrosion, MIC, etc., should be discussed during the planning stages of the project. There are provisions in the applicable codes to account for some of these issues. For instance, in systems that experience cyclic stresses or very high pressures, socket and slip-on fittings are not permitted by some piping codes.

Many of the engineers I work with ask me to check the sections of the project specifications that address welding requirements. It is at that stage of the project planning that opinions can be considered and changes can be easily accommodated. Once the project specifications have been released as part of the request for quotes or as part of the purchase order, changes to the requirements usually involve added costs to the owner.

It isn't a perfect world out there. Not every design engineer was in the top 10% of the graduating class and not all inspectors scored in the 90's on their examination. Most designers or owners do not work in a vacuum. Contractors with a good working knowledge of construction can play a valuable part in evaluating the proposed system for constructability. Most of the projects I've been involved with have included a pre-bid project meeting were changes proposed by the contractor are considered. Suggestions made by the contractor are incorporated into the project via a change order or addenda to the project specification if the owner and engineer agree the change is to their benefit. 

How does all of this commentary tie into whether or not the socket joints are radiographed to confirm the 1/16th inch gap at the bottom of a socket joint or excess pull-back on a slip-on flange? Simple, it is the engineer/designer's responsibility to consider these aspects of the piping system during the design stages of the project. The designer has the option of several different types of fitting to select from when designing the system. Once it is designed it isn't up to the inspector or the contractor to arbitrarily make changes the type of fitting installed or the type examination utilized to verify conformance to the project specifications.

I sympathize with contractor's that quote jobs with contract language such as, "all welding shall be first class workmanship", "all welding shall be in accordance with ASME B&PV Code", "all welding shall be in accordance with ASME Section IX", "all work to industry standards" or similar nebulous language. The contractor should go back to the owner and ask that it be clarified and made specific. Agreeing to language that isn't specific can lead to all sorts of problems once the project gets underway. It can be unfair to the contractor and to the owner. My experience is that such language is resorted to when the designer isn't familiar with piping requirements or is too lazy to research the requirements. It's the old, "we'll put it in there to cover our butts" philosophy. I've sat in on several planning meetings where the designer has been told that the requirements are incomplete or language conflicts with code requirements or other project requirements only to be told, "let the contractor figure it out." You know then and there that the project is going to be full of surprises and fun for all. That designer or engineer probably copied his answers from George Bush's exams while they attended Yale. (Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity)

Shane, I sympathize with you. I too have a project being built to a "mix-master" of codes. The design and fabrication of piping support steel (not the hangers) is to AISC, the fabrication, WPSs, and visual acceptance criteria is to B31.1, the welders are qualified to ASME and CJP welds are UT'd to AWS, but the thickness is less than 5/16th inch. However, where the structural supports attach to the existing steel, they have to meet AWS D1.1 including the WPSs and welder qualifications. Of course you know the contractor then wants to use his ASME welding documentation and welder qualifications for everything. I don't blame him; the same welders are used for both the piping and supporting steel. The welders don't understand why a weld is acceptable at point "A" while the same quality isn't acceptable at point "B".

There have been projects where I have developed project specific welding requirements, including visual acceptance criteria, for situations where the criteria in the applicable ASME construction code was not specific enough for the owner's application. The "modified" requirements were in the RFQ that included a copy of the project specifications.

As for imposing RT after the fact when there is no mention of RT in the code or original project specification is unfair to the contractor. The codes have varying levels of required examinations that are dependent on the operating pressures and/or temperatures, service conditions, etc. The level of examination the contractor anticipates is that listed in the code unless there is language in the project specifications alerting him to something other than those code required examinations. All's fair in the construction of a piping system as long as it is included in the project specifications. I always tell my clients to include an option for additional examinations with NDT, including 10% random radiographic examination, with progressive examination if unacceptable welds are detected. It's a club that can be used to keep the contractor honest and can be exercised if the contractor starts to ignore things like checking groove angles, root openings, interpass cleaning, etc.  Fair warning was given.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 10-06-2007 20:22
I don't have my code books with me, and I apologize for entering this conversation late.  However, from my memory, NDTIII's diagram appears to be on the verge of an "unacceptable joint design", which I belive is illustrated in ASME construction codes.  It looks like an illegal corner joint to me.  I've never paid much attention to the diagram because I haven't had to; but my memory is pushing me in that direction.

When I get back to the office, I'll look into it and report back to the team.

Charles
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 10-06-2007 20:35
It turns out I do have a Section I with me.  Figure PW-9.2 is a prohibited joint (corner joint).  The illustration provided by NDTIII is not exactly like figure PW-9.2, so the comparison is not valid.  However it is close, and it does illustrate the need for clarification on the behalf of the code committees.  I remember someone posting awhile ago something to the effect that it was a topic that was going to be addressed in future revisions to the ASME codes.   Well I know I speak for a few when I say I am anxiously awaiting the resolution.

Charles.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-10-2007 14:00
If I may take Al's statement a step further, though I do not imply this is his intent. He is correct, these issues should indeed be taken care of at the design stage and not imposed unilaterally from the inspection stage. And clearly a r;ecognition of the design stage not being perfect is in order.
But the socket weld issue in this thread is simply a more pervasive and entrenched instance of a bigger issue, and my argument will be recognized as one from analogy.
Would we as inspectors for example impose unilaterally a finer surface texture upon a root pass in anticipation of the design stage overlooking the corrosivenss of a service? Would we unilaterally impose a more stringent face reinforcement tolerance? A more stringent undercut requirement just in case design forgot a fatigue regime? Or CVN's in case design neglected the importance of toughness for a particular service?
I would argue that what we are really talking about here is not necesarily a workmanship standard based upon a concern for service failures, for where is the concern for service failures in these and many many many more instances that are every bit as critical and dangerous, maybe even more so.
No, I would argue that we are dealing with an industry habit (not necessarily a bad one but certainly not defendable as a necessary one) that has been cherry picked and defended as obtaining some importance for service viability.
In other words if it can in this case be argued that inspection has the imperitive to impose additional requirements based upon its 'sense' of the possibility of service problems (or cover designs azz) why just here?  Why not everywhere? Why not at least in a few other applications where there may exist more extensive evidence of problems.
If inspection wishes to take upon itself the responsibiity of covering designs azz, then is it also willing to take upon itself the responsibility for due diligence in other applications, or just this one with a comfortable history?
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