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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Heat Treating Cracks?
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-26-2007 21:39
Hi all-
I am hoping some with metalurgical background or casting weld repairs experience may help with some advice.
We work on a lot of steam valve refurbishments and apply new seats as well as repair whatever needs repairing. Recently in some AMS 6758 (4130) valve bodies after applying new Stellite seats we sent over to our standard PWHT of 1100-1150 stress relief for 2-hours. We usually don't have any problems. In this instance, each of four valves came back with ~ a dozen or more small surface cracks in the valve body maybe 1 to 2 inches away from the applied Stellite seats. The seats were fine.  We are repairing the cracks now and they are all less than 1/4 inch deep.   What caused the cracks? I am thinking that we may have thermally cycled these valves too many times before sending to heat treat. In other words, we may have let the valve bodies cool to room temperature before all welding was completed, then resumed preheat and welding on a different day and then again let them cool before the ovens were ready.  Could this cause the problem?   This is almost typical of our process and hasn't cause many (or any known) problems before.  As I said, we have no problems in the Stellite.

In this old thread: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=31087;hl=4130%20stress%20relieving#pid31087  ,  the inimitable Chuck Meadows mentions a method of cooling welds to some unknown martensite forming temperature, then raising to stress relief temperature, then and only then permit cooling to room temperature.  Is this everyones standard procedure for welding 4130 and other HTLA's ?   But since my cracks are not in the weld area, I wonder if this procedure would have helped?

Anxious for ideas and thanks. 
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 09-26-2007 21:49
Did you look for copper contamination from the MT Prods?
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-26-2007 23:31
Hi Joe-
I am not sure they used probes on this, we have a portable yoke with developer that I think may have been used.
But I'd like to know more about your idea.......how would copper probes contaminate a casting by casual contact and result in cracks?   If copper contamination was a cause, would it be detectable after an oven post weld at 1100 deg?

By the way, I should add some other particulars about our welds on these valves:
Preheat: 400 deg F
Interpass: 500 deg F max
Stellite 6 is used on these seats
Original valve seats are typically ground completely out plus several thousands (~.040") into the base metal below the original seat.
Stellite applied in two layers then rough machined/inspected prior to pwht.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 00:03
Tom,

One of the major down sides to Prod inspection is the potential for arc strike. Typically lead pads or copper braid is used to prevent it via increasing surface area for contact between the prods and the work surface.

If prods where used without any protection as mentioned, they could have arced out and contaminated the material with the copper from the prod ends themselves.

If it was an AC yoke, there is almost no potential for arc strike, nor even with a DC yoke.
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-27-2007 00:28
CWI555 - recently on a different job, we were playing around with a central conductor type MT inspection. Our setup was very clumsy and in a very awkward position - we got arc strikes!!  Wasn't aware of the lead pad idea. Thanks for that.

Now an arc strike from an MT power supply is not very intense, so I can see where a trace of copper could be slightly burned in from a low spark, but how could this "contamination" result in cracks that propagate to a 1/4" deep?
Thanks.
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 09-27-2007 04:55
Tom

I recently watched a commercial testing lab perform  "Arc Strike MT" on several valves and fittings.   These pieces were to be heat treated in subsequent operations.  I was shocked and asked the Lab why they would do this.  They actually played dumb, and continued to arc strike during the whole week I was there.  (They were not doing this on my job, so I couldn't say much more.)

One of my customers makes Nuclear Power Reactor Valves.  They have Prod type MT performed on their "Cast-to-near-net-shape" & "then forged",  valve bodies and require the supplying company to do MT and certify that it has been done.  Then, upon receipt of the valve body, they perform an inch by inch visual insppection for arc strikes.  Then they perform their own specail type of heat treatment.  If there are any copper depositing arc strikes from the MT operation, the copper can melt, combine with the steel and cause shallow cracks.  These valves seats are actually then welded while the valve body is at a very high temperature, so that when the valve body is cooled, the welded seat is in compression.  I was told that even a little copper contamination can cause cracks.  These cracks are usually shallow.

I have always known that copper melting on steel can cause cracks. A contact tip melted into a molten weld will cause micro cracks that can coalesce into larger cracks.

The copper deposits cannot always be easily detected, thus the vigorous visual inspection.  If there are any cracks on these valves,  when they are finished with the welding and machining, they are permamnetly rejected.  No repair is permitted.

I recommended a prod made by a Swiss company that does not arc strike but the Customer would not allow any changes.
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-27-2007 01:09
It is near impossible to evaluate such things without looking at the valve, welding technique, preheat and postheat parameters.  But, for cracks in the valve body away from the fusion line or HAZ, I would look at differential thermal expansion between the Stellite 6 seat and the 4130 valve body.  You should start with a review of the postweld heat treatment charts to see what heating and cooling rates were used.  We would typically require a max. heating/cooling rate of 250 F for an item such as this with a complex geometry and variation in wall thickness.  I'm hoping Greg Roberts will chime in here and lend us his insight on welding of valve castings.  It would definitely be advisable to maintain preheat without interruption until all welding is finished on a hardfacing repair.  This could definitely be a contributor in your case.  What size and pressure class is the valve?

For a valve refurbishment, we make every effort to avoid postweld heat treatment.  Remember that (typically) preheat is based on base metal thickness, but postweld heat treatment is based on weld deposit thickness.  There are some exceptions for certain base metals, but in general this is true.  We also try to remove all of the old Stellite 6 or 12 and use Stellite 21 for the repair.  The condition of the base metal prior to starting the repair may also be a factor.  There may have been some damage present in the form of microcracks from creep or fatigue that propagate during the heating/cooling cycle.
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-27-2007 09:31
MBSims-
You touched on a couple things that have been really been bothering me on this problem:
1. I don't have confidence in the incoming inspection report that these cracks may indeed have been there before we started our work.  QA denies that they were present at incoming, but the report doesn't show the areas in question were checked.
2. Your temperature rates of 250 deg/hr seems very slow, but I like that. Our typiccal is 450-500 deg/hr.  I have trouble with the production controller when I limit rates to 400 deg/hr ("...we never did it that way before...").   Is your 250 deg/hr a published recommendation somewhere?
3. You mention that "preheat is based on base metal thickness". This is new to me, our universal preheat temp is 400 deg F regardless of thickness of these alloys and this is (for me anyway) based on CE calculation and temp recommendations I have seen in Linnerts book. ASME and AWS values are much much lower.  Do you have some additional factors or references that modify preheat based on thickness?

Thanks MB.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 10:12
Tom, we've done tons of "similar" seats in my shop and I admit, we've had only limited success.  Just a couple of comments to consider, which are likely extraneous to your condition; we do PT's on this stuff to avoid arc strikes altogether.  How is your preheat being applied?  Previously, we used an industrial oven and brought our parts to in excess of 500F for thicknesses in the range of 2 - 3" this has proven burdensome and we've recently acquired some wonderful induction heating equipment from Miller but have yet to try it out.  In my own experience, you need to slow cool this stuff also.  In our case, we post bake at around 450F for an hour per inch (commonly referred to as a hydrogen bake out) but again, this may not be applicable in your case although it may help reduce residual stresses before reaching room temperatures.  Avoid mechanical finishing after overlaying if possible or, if you must, use a watercooled bench grinder instead of a lathe or manual tools.  The list goes on and one but as I mentioned, this may all be extraneous to the issues you're experiencing.  Good luck!
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-27-2007 11:14
jon-
depending on size of the casting we may resort to an oven preheat but most likely we will use ceramic elements and either a Maritime or Cooper controller. PWHT on minimal local repairs will be done by same system, but for PWHT on seat applicatioins and other collective repairs we will universally opt for the oven.

HYDROGEN BAKE OUT - it just so happens I have been trying to learn more about when this may be appropriate conditioning for in-service steam valves. I can't find much! when and why do you do this? Does it have anything to do with the casting absorbing hydrogen from the steam? Is that even possible?  (most of the valve we see are fairly high pressure (upto 600 deg F, saturated. Or so I am told).  
Thanks.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 11:54
Tom, I only employed the hydrogen bakeout methodology because we were getting way too many cracks in the Stellite 6 deposits themselves, not the base metal... it was, most likely a last ditch effort to try getting our rejection rate down when few other methods had workled.  It did improve our acceptance rate but whether or not the welds themselves were absorbing atmospheric hydrogen was never investigated to the extent it might have been... that said, it seemed to work.

Walt Sperko is a personal Mentor and he's got a very informative website with contact details, he is also far more knowledgable than myself in the matters of hydrogen bakeout, I suggest you visit his site and drop him a line: www.sperkoengineering.com

Additionally, EPRI may have some information on this topic.  Good luck!
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 09-28-2007 04:02 Edited 09-28-2007 04:05
Our use of 250 F/hr for heavy wall complex shapes is experience based more than from technical publications.  ASME B31.1 has a requirement of 1200 F/hr divided by the "nominal thickness", not to exceed 600 F/hr.  That is a good starting point when working to codes that don't address heating/cooling rates.  However, the code requirements are minimums and sometimes you have to do more than the code says to get the work done properly and have a reliable component.  Codes don't usually address reliability, just safety and preventing catastrophic failure.

For CrMo steels, there is usually a min. preheat regardless of thickness, as you say.  Carbon steels require preheat when they exceed 3/4" or 1" thickness (depending on carbon content) in B31.1, or 1-1/2" thickness for ASME III or VIII to avoid PWHT.  AWS D1.1 preheat requirements increase with base metal thickness.  When you look at the preheat requirements or recommendations in codes, they usually address base metal thickness.

I think Greg has some very good comments and suggestions in his reply below.
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 09-28-2007 01:15
Tom,
I just had a few thoughts on the cracks you are getting:

1. Are the cracks transverse or longitudinal?  I am kind of assuming longitudinal.

2. What temperature was this valve running at?  4130 seems like a slightly odd material for steam service as its Cr and Mo content are pretty darn lean.  If it was in service above its working limits, perhaps the material has creep damage or embrittlement that is being exposed by the extra stress places on it by welding?  Most steam valves I have seen start at 1 1/2 Cr, 1/2 Mo, and go up from there.  4130 is around 1/2 Cr, 1/4 Mo, with high Nickel, which tends to embrittle during extended high temp service.

3. I have welded on lots of castings similar to 4130 without having to keep them hot until PWHT as has been suggested, but if I ran into one that had unknown cracking problems, that would be one of the first things I would try.  It is worth a shot if you have to weld repair the cracked ares.  You also need to make doubly sure that the cracks can't just be ground out and put back into service without any more welding since the cracks aren't in the seat itself.  Since the cracks are shallow, perhaps you can grind, blend, and call it good.

4. It was suggested that the cracks could be from the different expansion coefficient of the two materials.  Unless the stellite is very thick (which I would doubt), I think this would have a much greater chance of cracking the stellite than the casting merely due to the difference in size between the two.

5. You didn't mention what welding process you used for the stellite or going to use for the repairs of the cracks if necessary.  If you can, I would use GTAW or SMAW as they tend to not harden the HAZ quite as much as FCAW or GMAW.  Since the beads tend to be smaller, you can get better tempering effects from subsequent weld passes.

6. Since it is a casting, there is always a chance that there is microshrink or other defects in the area that the new stresses are opening up.

It could be any of the above problems, but my gut (depending on service temperature) wants to point at item #2.
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 09-28-2007 12:21 Edited 09-28-2007 14:21
GR-
You have given me a lot to think upon.
All of the smaller cracks are longitudinal to the axis of the valve.  EXCEPT for one long bothersome crack that showed up that is transverse at the surface but when we started to grind it out, within ~3/64 or so below surface it changed direction and went longitudinal. This is the only one that was transverse out of about 75 cracks (total) in the four valves. Unfortunately I couldn't get to the camera before the grinding was underway, but perhaps what I have attached can tell the story. Also apologize for the poor clarity as i was sticking it in a 450 deg valve body.

Other particulars:
Steam valve operating at 600 psi saturated, temp I think at that pressure is about 486 deg F.

Cracks are too deep, numerous and clustered to attemp blending.

Stellite is only ~.063 max. thick and in great shape! considering all the other bad things.
Stellite was applied by GTAW, cracks will be repaired by GTAW.

Microshrink you say!? That sounds like a flaw that may have existed since the valve body was born, why would that come out to haunt me 15 years later?

If you can interpret these crack orientations and locations in any way, please don't hold back!

By the way, I should remention that all these cracks only were detected after all other repairs and final PWHT stress relief was completed.

Thankyou all for your interest.
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Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 09-29-2007 01:08
Ok, so 486 degrees isn't that hot.  So that might not be the problem. 

As far as microshrink, that would have been there at the time the casting solidified.  I have seen castings that have been heat treated multiple times without a problem in a particular area, then all of a sudden, the next heat treat opens up a crack to a previously unknown shrink pocket (not microshrink in this case).  I thought of microshrink since it seems to be farily uniform around the perifery of the seat?  And near the seat area is a thick section usually...and you are getting it in all the valves?  Are they all the same pattern (i.e. pattern number from the foundry that made them?)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Heat Treating Cracks?

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