unions

Date 06-24-2007 09:39

It probably is not applicable here but....

I have two union experiences one with the Ironworkers Union as a welder, one with the UAW and I was in management.

As I welder in the Iron Workers I thought i had the best job out there...everything was provided: fire watchers, someone to stroll my leads around for me, move my angel wing or ladder and clean my joints if I wanted it. When I was caught up and had no welds it was "bolt up" or go home. But it was still great considering how rough the work was.

With the UAW I seen a bunch of lazy (*&(*(&(&(*(* who used the contract as an excuse to sabotage machinery (after quota of course), find reasons not to help out there fellow workers, and basically milk the clock for all it was worth. I am sure that is not the case with this union everywhere but that was it where I was. (how many brake press operators you know who are making 60k and bitching about it?).

From what I have heard about union pipe jobs its a solid deal just like the bolermakers.....hard work but good pay and strong union. There Are plenty of salty pipe welders around here I am sure will be able to give you solid info.

By emccorma Date 06-25-2007 00:58

Nothing beats a union. Local 638 Steamfitters New York |

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-25-2007 03:07 Edited 06-25-2007 03:09

My experience with unions has left a bad taste in my mouth. One was from Chicago and the other one was based out of Tulsa with the main group being out of Bald Knob AR. They were all related, white, and firmly convinced their way was the best. One of the guys out of the Tulsa local had a 250 gallon drag up tank he expected to be filled every day. The contract said the contractor would furnish fuel and fill all equipment daily. He was the lead and the job steward. A fairly decent welder, but it did not change my mind he was a thief. The other was steel fitters. I found out I could not run off the BA's useless son even though the useless piece of human debris refused to wear fall safety equipment. I sent him home at 10 am and he was was back by lunch with his good for nothing father in tow. I was contract and the company man told me it would be better if these guys did what they wanted and to just let it go. By afternoon break, no one was wearing fall protection. I left two days later. As I never got deposed on anything I guess nobody fell off.
My bad experience's wer over 10 years ago. I have heard because of the labor shortage some unions are having to increase the DNA pool and hire outside of their families. I hear some are even recruiting blacks and hispanics! Course not the Bald Knobbers! If the union you are wanting to work with pays well, keeps you busy and the bench has the BA's friends on it once and a while, safety is not just preached but practiced and there is joint respect between the union and their clients, then go for it. In the old days a journeyman with union credentials was considered high quality with good work habits. Some still have it. I wish the unions would go back to demanding quality for fair pay instead of demanding fair pay and delivering mediocre work.
BABRT's

By rambis12 Date 06-25-2007 04:20

Ironworkers 383-Madison, Wisconsin is a great place to be. The big thing about trade unions is that we work for multiple contractors. There isn't room for lazy workers because they will get laid off. You might see them if there is a shortage of manpower though. If you are a good hand, you will fit in well. Pride and quality is number one and if you like to work, you should come join our brotherhood.

By Kix

Date 06-26-2007 14:52

Dbigkahunna, I don't know what Union you were working around, but UA pipefitters do it right and if it's not right it gets taken down and we do it again. If your not safe you get run off, and if your lazy you sit the bench, end up as fire watch for 12 hours a day, or make the 1st layoff list. We pride on doing things right and keeping each other safe so we get more work. We want the contractors in our local area to get the bid so we stay working. If a contractor has a bad safety record then they most likely will not get the bid. If you get caught doing something unsafe that could get you or someone else hurt by a fellow brotha you will likely get an a$$ chewing.
For the guy up top to answer your question if you want to make a career out of pipe welding and can get on with a union then do it and don't look back. It will be well worth it i promise you!! Pipefitters locals are different in that some are in areas that get lots of work and some are in areas where you will have to travel outside your local to get work. Try to get in one that has lots of industry around it even if it means relocating. Thats if you don't like to travel and you like to stay working. Making a career in idustrial construction is a tuff gig, butt being in a union will keep you healthier then non union in my opinion!!! In other words you will most likely still be working right up to retirement instead of being on disability. Don't get me wrong there are guys that look forward to getting on disability in both non union and union, but you get what i'm saying.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-26-2007 15:29

kix; you said it right when you said "there are guys that look forward to getting on disability in both non union and union." While I'll be the first to admit some of the best welders I've ever seen are union welders, my experiences have been more along the lines of Dbigkahunna... I've been a UA Member and it left a horrible taste in my mouth and would never (by choice) work for a union again. I'm not knocking the benefits of union labor just that some members take things far too far to the extreme. I may have mentioned before, I used to ride a local bus service into my work place and when my "brothers" found out the bus service used non-union mechanics a bunch of them gathered and egged and threw hot coffee over all those who rode the bus. Yes, the bussing company quit making that run and since I didn't have a car at the time it forced me to really wonder what the hell the UA members had a gripe with the bussing company about... definately not a good move for the union image of brotherhood.

By makeithot (***)

Date 06-26-2007 17:03

I am thinking a guy could go either way on this topic, "union or non-union" being a member of a union myself I constantly have to ask myself what they have done for me lately? answer: not much. As a contractor /rig welder they do not help me find work I have to do that myself,and when I do find the work which I have no trouble doing and I need extra help do they send quality people - no. I normally end up with some dead weight that can't think for himself and increases my work load by haveing to redo all the stuff he said he could handle. Do they offer me better rig rates? once again-no. I get a better rate with less hassle none union then I do with the union and I do not have to pay them their pound of flesh for doing nothing. When you voice an opinion on safety,workmanship and training do they support you? once again- No. They are most likely going to hang you out to dry for pissing off the guy who was supposed to be looking after those issuse but could'nt tear himself away from the dougnut table. Can you fire that dog f@#$%*# that has been wasteing your time all day over his personal issuses? and again-NO. You will (which has been my experience) be saddled with ( and for lack of a better definition ) that waste of skin until #1-You pull out all your hair #2- Go in for the Labotamy so he starts to make sence. #3-Up and quit. But hey on a more positive note unions are great the benefits they offer in relationship to dental are good and occasionaly you run across some people that are well trained, a pleasure to be around and a joy to work with. Not being the sharpest tool in the box at times thats my two bits.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 06-26-2007 17:20

Believe it or not, I am NOT anti-union. I began my career in the Boilermakers Local 104 out of Seattle and I owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. It's just that some members go a little too far to the extreme in unionism and thats the "bad element" I refer to.

By hogan

Date 06-26-2007 18:19

the only benefit i see a union having is for a person just starting out. they have good training programs. that is it.

By Wrench Tech (**)

Date 07-01-2007 14:46

My first post....well it had to happen eventually.
I'm an independant contractor now but I was a good union man all my life. I have two comments, if I may. If you are a union man and you can say to yourself "What have they done for me?" then you've missed the point of unionism all together. The union isn't "they"; it's "us" ...you are a part of the union. You and all the other guys are the union. You have to get together and make it what it should be. Point two: There's good and bad unions. I don't know why but sometimes it all just seems to tip over.
Makeithot..I've been reading your posts...I thought you were pretty sharp. Love the Sunshine Coast...Cheers.

By Kix

Date 06-27-2007 17:18

Well, the whole throwing sit at the bus and the people who rode in on it is a bit dramatic. Things these days are changing with the times. Yeah you still got your old school guys who would probably do stuff like that, but i don't see stuff like that happening for to much longer. Besides there are much less dramatic and physical ways to get you point across these days. If we got a guy that can't make to the job cause he lost his license then he will get a ride from a fellow brother. Your whole bus issue was the contractors fault and they should have known never to do something like that because of the problems it could of caused. Basically in a nutt shell things are changing and changing fast and if you want to learn something and have good working conditions go with a Union. Or i guess i should say you have a better chance of haveing better conditions with a union, but even nowadays those are falling to the wayside because things are so different now.

By pipefitter100 (*)

Date 09-23-2007 22:12

I work Union now but used to be non-union I would not ever go back non-union for many reasons . for one the non-union side of pipefitting is a joke the contractors are not as big on safety,just about everyone is a dope head cheat on drug test,most cannot do math with a piece of paper and a pencil,the fitters are not fitters the foremans are usually the sups son and he has no idea of whats going on,the jobs are usually unorganized as hell the benies the contractors offer are way too much,and there is no retirement unless it comes off of the check,so why in sams hell would anyone with half a brain bash the union and want to be non-union unless they cant pass a union written test

By swsweld (****)

Date 09-24-2007 04:57

pipefitter 100, you certianly have a right to your opinion. Sounds like you worked for some poor non-union companies before you joined the union. I'm not taking up for union or non-union. There are advantages in both. Good and bad workers in both. Good and bad companies in both. I have worked non union mostly. I have been a member of the Boilermakers and Pipefitters. Been on many jobs that used both union and non-union. Like many of the other posters I've seen both sides. I live in a state that has one local for two states. The scale is no better than most non union companies and if you are near enough to a larger town you might work six months out of the year. If you work year round it will be out of a suitcase or with a nonunion company hoping not to run into your hardcore union buddies. Not all locals are equal. Some people have fewer options than others. I wish things were different here. Wish the scale here was 35.00/hr or more and work out the ears but that's not the case. I'm not anti union at all. In the USA there is a place for both.

By tim105

Date 06-28-2007 02:31 Edited 06-28-2007 02:35

I have worked for local 26 as a pipewelder in Washington State for almost a year and I did learn a thing or two about the unions, I did learn that you pay the membership dues and then you have to pay working dues on top of that, which as I was told by other members that the money goes into a retirement fund. I did ask him why the working dues were so high and he told me a story about how one of the headchiefs in charge of the fund had embezzled a good portion of that retirement and now we have to pay higher working dues to replace that money. The other thing I learned about the unions is that when you are done with a job, you sign back up on the list and go home and wait and wait and wait for the next job to come up.
After working non-union and making 90 grand plus a year, then working union (starving) and making less than 40 thousand in a year, I figured out really fast that I can pay for my own insurance, invest 18% of my monthly income and still come out ahead working non-union.
Tim

By welder5354 (**)

Date 07-09-2007 01:30

Hi Tim105, i'm a UA union member for over 30 years. As for paying working dues, it's been there for a long time. We've been paying those dues as long as i can remember. The UA needs the fund to contiune training of welders. As part of the UA we have an excellent training centre that is always open to it's members. Our members are trained and their certs are current because whenever a contractor needs a welder, we can dispatch them immediatley. Probably the reason why most of the non-union contractors <those days> are paying good money is to keep welders. If it were not for unions, most wages would be still be very low. We have contractors who will pay higher wages than our union because they know the welders will leave for better wages. Keep in mind, all of those non-union contractors do not have health and welfare or pensions. Some do have health and welfare,but as soon as you are laid off it will expire.
Just food for thought.

By tim105

Date 07-09-2007 04:52

Welder 5354 i understand that the fund helps out as far as training new welders. The problem that I have is a lot of that retirement money is being stolen by the people on top of the totem pole. As far as depending on non union contractors to supply you with a decent medical insurance or retirement, don't expect much there either. On the other hand, don't expect the union contractors or the hall to keep you busy year round. I figured out several years ago that I needed to set my own retirement plan in motion and it has been working very well. By the time I reach 40, 33 now, I can live comfortably for the rest of my life. Unions might be good for some, but putting money where you know that it is being stolen, I don't like that.

By RANDER

Date 06-28-2007 02:42

I left a "Good" union job before getting in to this field.   It was the Teamsters and not welding related so feel free to stop reading now. But anywhoo   theres several good and bad things I could say but the one s that stand out most are these.
1. I was finishing the shift loading a 53' trailer, already worked it a few different ways to get the whole load to fit. We dont want to send partial loads. Bell rang to go home but I needed 3-5 more minutes to handle this thing. I didnt want to leave it for someone else to finish. I could feel the STARES of the Brothers as they passed on the way out. Of course they were standing by the timeclock 10 min. till the bell rang. Got a little talkin to the next day.   (once in awhile duty calls and the job needs to get done) cant leave it for the next guy

2. The #1 guy on the dock was retiring. Me and some buddies were LOW LOW on the seniority list. The #1 guys friends came around asking for donations to help throw this guy a retirement party. Of course he would come by later to give us directions.   (Never did).   One of my buddies that was standing there and gave a donation even though he didnt have squat and had just seen the birth of his new daughter was working on the side to pay the bills. A framed wall fell on him breaking his back and leaving him out of work for many months.   When we came by asking our "BROTHERS" (Remember most of them were senior) for a donation --------- "Whos that?   I dont know him!" So much for the Brotherhood.

I know thats not everywhere and isnt the welding trade but Im sure that mentality persists in many fields besides the Teamsters. Wages when I was young were great but I was making the same as a 20 yr guy. sure he wasnt happy. Everyone who has worked both sides can give you pros and cons and the responses will be varied and sure to be powerful and heartfelt by those who share them. True believers on both sides. Figure out whats best for you and yours and go for it. Union or not we are all brothers.
Just 1 guys 2 cents.

By RonG

Date 06-28-2007 13:49

You must remember a couple things. All Union members are human beings and any time you have to deal with that many human beings and they all want their way, things generally go the wrong way. And as long as people refuse to help correct and just stand to the side and point out problems are a part of the problems not the solution.

How many people bitch and complain about our Government but don't even vote let alone make a genuine effort to correct problems. They just want to huddle off to the side and point fingers.

How many out there know what is contained in the first paragraphs of the constitution of the A Fof L / CIO? In so many words it is promise to provide jobs for every one in the Brotherhood. Unfortunately it does not provide detailed instructions on how to go about it.

The Unions have done great things for the people of this country. Don't' believe that? Read some history books on the subject. Go on a trip around the world and compare. But bare in mind that although some places have never been unionized it is not because they are kind and generous but because they feel a genuine fear of being organized.

Do any of you really believe there would be "Overtime premium pay" paid had it not been for the unions? How many understand that premium pay did not come about as a reward from your employer for working long hours. It is in fact retribution (punishment if you will) to your employer for not hiring more of your brothers.

The only thing wrong about the unions is they are like every thing else us humans make. Less than perfect.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-28-2007 20:38

As this goes off into a different direction, I would like to make a final say. If you want to depend on someone else to ensure your future and feel comfortable having someone else do it or carry the load, then Union membership will work for you. You can be a leader in the union, but never kid yourself the union can change. There are several unions which have first class training and apprenticeship programs. These unions tend to be very progressive and have responsive leadership. One key is to see hoe much the union looks like YOU and how much it looks like the rest of the world. If the union is male and white, do not look for that group to be very inclusive. If the leadership can be traced to on or two locals and the family tree looks one sided, if you do not belong to that family, you are just the union ATM. Again, it comes down to the local. I have worked with IBEW groups and must say that is one squared away union. I have worked with UA guys and while there may be exceptions to locals, they are male and white! Nothing against individual members, but the UA has leadership issues. JMHO
If you want to take charge of your career and feel you can develop by yourself, develop a network of people who share the same interest in welding and feed on each others strengths. That was what the old unions were about. You can be successful both in an out of a union. But in both cases it will be exactly what you put into either which will determine the success of your career.
Good lick and stay safe.
BABRT's

By hogan

Date 06-28-2007 21:44

for someone who appears to have had negative experiences based on race and sex, I would think that would stay clear of racist and sexist remarks

By Gregory Walker (*)

Date 07-02-2007 21:59

Well I signed my papers today and it was a little surreal. I go to work tomorrow at an aerospace plant in the city. I kind of figure if nothing else I can further my welding education for next to nothing. my old man is 150% non-union and he was really happy to hear I was joining, haha. I just hope I have made the right choice to further my career, and my knowledge in a field I love to do so much. thanks for throwing your two cents in, I'd appreciate any thing anyone else has to say.

Greg Walker

By RANDER

Date 07-02-2007 22:08

Great! Every job has its good and bad points. Going home happy at the end of the day is what counts. You work to make you happy. Congrats.

By hogan

Date 07-02-2007 22:09

congratulations, hope it works out for you. take advantage of all education opportunities available

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-03-2007 02:46

As You must have gathered from these posts the people in any particular union make it a good one or a bad one. One thing to remember about any job is that if You arn't going in the direction You need to go You can find a better opportunity and GO THERE. Go in with an open mind and get a feel for who the good people are. Make it a point not to get sucked in by the ones with a bad attitude, their numbers only grow if You let them. The best of luck to You.

By makeithot (***)

Date 07-07-2007 04:28

dave, well said.

By JA

Date 07-07-2007 22:38

Ironworkers local 433..............

By momonthego (*)

Date 07-12-2007 19:42

Please let me know how things go for you...my husband is a rig pipe welder & he is thinking of joining the union as well due to the benefits. Working as a contractor we never have insurance & with having four children that is very needed. My husband will probably take his test next week for the union we will see how it goes.........Good luck to you......we are all just trying to make the best in life

By Gregory Walker (*)

Date 07-12-2007 23:48

Is he testing for local 798?

By jpmenace Date 07-19-2007 04:53

If unions are so racist and sexist, then why do they promote hiring minorities and women at every hiring period. Every union I've tested for has had a disclaimer about promoting equal opportunity. You sound like a person who complains a lot, so I will give you some advice. Go in, work hard, clock out, go home, and quit whining. You're a welder, suck it up!

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-16-2007 20:45

Ever notice when you drive by a road construction, there's one guy working and seven others watching.........?

They are union workers.........OOPS!

By Wrench Tech (**)

Date 07-16-2007 21:26

Yup, maybe. But as a good union man I worked my a$$ for for over thirty years!

By Pipeslayer (**)

Date 07-17-2007 11:55

It's like that in the south too. The union has many good things to offer for good workers but so many times I see people try to take advantage of the strength in numbers game. No one likes a bunch of cry baby welders. If the money is not good enough move on,no one will hold it against you. Dont sit around and cry about it. This is america if you want then get off your but and go get it.

By johnnyh (***)

Date 07-18-2007 02:41

I started out in a union out of high school and it was great place to train. The older guys have a lot of information to share. The union pipe work is not very abundant in texas. So stay up north if you stay in the union. The union folks I have worked with took great pride in their work in stark contrast to some of the nonunion work that I inspect now.

By darren

Date 07-18-2007 13:41

unions are like people they have good qualities and bad, to say you don't like or do like unions is like saying that you do or do not like people. blanket staments like that are usually very narrow minded.
darren

By pipefitter100 (*)

Date 10-12-2007 03:56

Hey Surdough
Do you use a pipeliners square when you lay out a 90 deg saddle?or do you use a formula? if so what formula do you use?Lets see how smart you really arnt...ooops i meant are!!time's tickin tic toc tic toc.:}

By Sourdough (****)

Date 10-12-2007 21:17

I never have to do a 90 degree saddle - so neither........

Wanna have a spelling contest??