Pittsburgh CWI Seminar (Nightmare). Undercut vs Underfill?

By NDTIII

Date 08-12-2007 03:35 Edited 08-12-2007 03:37

Undercut is a melting of the base material. Underfill is where the weld face is lower than the base metal.

Attachment: underfill-05.gif (5k)

Attachment: 6411underfill-05.gif (5k)

By natecf

Date 08-12-2007 03:52

sorry to hear about your experience. I recently took the exam in conn. ,and from what I remember, on a groove weld, underfill has clean fusion at the top of the groove face, the weld just doesn't fill the joint completely to the top. undercut on the other hand may fill the joint completely, but the base metal is melted away at the edge weld interface (where the weld metal and the base metal meet) thereby causing a reduction of base matal thickness. The undercut cannot measure more than 1/32 (with the weld parallel to the direction of stress),or 1/64 (withthe weld transverse to the direction of stress)
Ihope I answered your question you can also look in D1.1 under accepable weld profiles (not sure of the figure #) that should make it clear, a picture is worth a thousand words

By commonarc (**)

Date 08-12-2007 13:00 Edited 08-12-2007 18:59

<<The undercut cannot measure more than 1/32 (with the weld parallel to the direction of stress),or 1/64 (withthe weld transverse to the direction of stress)>>

Is this the acceptance/rejection limit for undercut or the tolerance difference between undercut and underfill? About half the class thought it was undercut and the other thought it was underfill on the plastic model groove weld. Some thought it was underfill half way down with undercut the rest of the way. The edge looked broken down the entire length of the weld sample but was deeper on one end. Would this make it undercut regardless of depth?? It was very hard to make this determination from a plastic model and very confusing.

As our Pittsburgh AWS Seminar Instructor "Bubba" would say, and I quote:

"AWS makes the practical exam this way on purpose so you FAIL and have to PAY MORE MONEY to take it over. End of discussion. Happy hour is from 6:00 to 9:00 in the hotel bar. API Code book people can leave now (2:45 PM). We will be finishing early today."

We never stayed in class until 5:00PM during the entire seminar.

By natecf

Date 08-13-2007 02:06

<<The undercut cannot measure more than 1/32 (with the weld parallel to the direction of stress),or 1/64 (withthe weld transverse to the direction of stress)>>

these are the acceptance/rejection limits for undercut. that was definitely undercut on that sample
The instructor in conn. was Richard Depue ,he was awsome. He made sure you knew what was going to be on the test and thats what we concentrated on, no B.S.! He also mentioned that the tests are designed to be very difficult but also very passable. I recieved my score in less than 3 weeks, that is about the average wait time.
good luck!

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 08-12-2007 16:16

Underfill will occur in the weld itself. Undercut will occur at the toe of the weld in the parent metal. If you are measuring at the toe, call it undercut. If it is in the weld call it underfill. As an aside, having taken chingles of these type of test, it is usually a good idea to go with your first impression. When you start to overthink these test, you tend, and I stress tend, to second guess yourself. I agree the plastic samples are not that good, but when I took the test, I did not even think of underfill. It looked like UC, it walked like UC it quacked like UC. so I went with UC. And due to NOT following good advise, I got hung up on 2 test questions and took almost 45 minutes on them. I had no choice. By the time I got to the replicas, I was running on auto pilot. And I guess I did well. I scored 86 on the hands-on
BABRT's

By commonarc (**)

Date 08-12-2007 16:51

Thanks dbigkahunna. That's what I thought also so I went with it. I hope I was correct because underfill was one of the options and it was killing me as I was walking out of the test room.

Still disgusted with the seminar instructor. Everyone was disgusted. Some of the older professional types (engineers) were furious! I calculated we had less than 25 hours of actual class time for the whole week due to his 45 minute breaks and early quits. I plan on filing a written complaint with AWS in the coming weeks as soon as I can calm down. In my opinion, AWS owes everyone a refund or at least the option to take this seminar over at no cost. The bad thing is that this instructor is heading down to North Carolina (I think ?) for another seminar! He was packing up the instructional models and kits for shipping with duct tape during class while we were taking the sample tests and wheeling them past us on a dolly! That's how much of a hurry "Bubba" was to get done early.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 08-12-2007 22:58 Edited 08-14-2007 00:22

To all involved in this posting:

I CAN'T say enough about the professionals at WTTI in Allentown, Pennsylvania, about their instructional methods in preparing an aspiring CWI for the AWS test. The whole organization goes above and beyond what is required, for an individual, to comprehend what's necessary for the test! Pat Dorris and Mike Wieswiesser are true professionals!

I left their class mentaly exhausted after the first day, and the remaining days of their seminar; and then drove 90 miles home to study the information which was thoroughly presented!. We were in class from 8:00 AM until 4:00 PM with a fourty minute break; if I remember right!

It was money WELL spent in my opinion!

I was fortunate to have an organization that gave me MORE than what I paid for, and I HIGHLY recommend them to anybody!

By commonarc (**)

Date 08-13-2007 02:11 Edited 08-13-2007 02:49

"Bubba" was neither of the two gentlemen you named. The 45 minute breaks I mentioned were coffee breaks in addition to lunches. We had at least two or three of these 25 to 45 minute breaks each day in addition to the hour for lunch. "Bubba" the instructor would also leave the room for the entire two hours during the sample tests we took. We took 3 sample tests so "Bubba" was AWOL for a total of 6 hours during the week. He'd also be AWOL during the long breaks. You were also TOLD TO LEAVE the class at around 3:00PM if you were taking the API-1104 because he said he wanted to help us with the D1.1. A half hour later and us D1.1 people were done anyway and "Bubba" was running to get the heck out of there as fast as he could . We were shaking our heads in disbelief. The people taking API were pretty upset as were the rest of us. We all talked about it afterward and we couldn't find one person who wasn't livid with the lack of professionalism by this instructor.

The more I think about it the more I want a refund. This instructor was the subject of a lengthy forum message right here back in 2006. AWS was supposed to take action but it appears they did not. I tried to contact AWS via telephone and email numerous times asking who the instructor was for the CWI exam in Pittsburgh because I didn't want to take it from "Bubba". My emails and voice mail messages were ignored and I went ahead with my travel plans. As soon as I heard the word "Bubba" come out of this instructors mouth I knew I'd made a big mistake. Then the slides of his 1929 Chevy Classic Car came up on the screen followed by a half hour talk about painting it. Thoughts of failing the CWI exam were going through everyones head at lunch on the first day. If you are taking the CWI exam, you need to ask the instructors name before you pay. If his initials are E.H., don't take the course. You'll hate yourself if you do. That's about all I care to say at this time. I'll be taking this up with AWS in the coming weeks.

By swsweld (****)

Date 08-13-2007 05:22 Edited 08-13-2007 05:31

This is ironic. I took the course last August in Charlotte. Same guy taught the seminar. Last week I met a CWI in VA. and compared test and training stories. I told him about all the time donated to classic cars and boats instead of welding knowledge. If I had failed I would have been upset too. I had no benchmark to compare him to. I sort of assumed this is how they are ran. Seemed to know topic OK. Just had a problem with the slide shows. I paid out of pocket too.Wanted all the info I could get.

During the practical application test we were placed beside a motivational seminar with a high pitched squawking speaker. I still hear that voice in my head. Instead of measuring undercut or underfill I was measuring decibels.

I blame the hotel for that though, not Bubba.

Now I'm wondering how the seminar would have been with a better instructor.
Hope it works out for you.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-13-2007 05:22 Edited 08-13-2007 20:03

The same happened to me and unfortunately, it's still happening to other folks!!!
I was going to take the seminar again in Pittsburgh this year, and I'm glad I did'nt because the same person that was there giving it was precisely, to the letter initials, the same person that very poorly represented the AWS in the same seminar I took in 2004.

So it looks like I was'nt just imagining this when it happened to me as commonarc attested that the same happened to him, and the rest of the class which can confirm this also!!!

Common Arc, If you get somewhere and find something positive out of this please let me know because I would be more than happy to attest that "Bubba" was to the letter exactly as you described him!!!
All the best to you.

P.S. I'm sure that all of the other instructors that present the seminar's are not at all like Bubba!!! The point is that this one instructor needs to be eliminated because he's totally unprofessional - no matter how knowledgable he is!!!

One more issue I have with the seminar is the fact that I was given as were others the study materials on the first day of the seminar... Why ca'nt the AWS send you the study materials to the individuals at least two weeks prior to the start of the seminar???? By that time the payments already have been secured!!!!

I can understand if the individual has'nt yet been confirmed as "paid in full" but, if they are - what's the harm in doing so especially if there is definitely enough time to do so before the seminar starts???

Yeah I know that I may sound like a sourpuss but, now I know that I was'nt alone then in feeling like I was "hoodwinked, bamboozled, Out right conned" into a seminar or now, where it was better off that I did'nt even attend when I took the exam.

I aced the practical and the fundamentals but, with only 5 days of being able to access AWS D1.1 code book, being misled by this bubba instructor on how to navigate my way through D1.1 was the reason why I did horrible with the open book portion of the exam, and missed the CWI cutoff by a couple of percentage points!!! Then after everything was said and done, quite a few of the other folks that were at the same seminar had the same results so, if the shoe fits???

It's a shame that as an AWS member for over fifteen years on and off, that this one section in Pittsburgh cannot listen to the participants that went through the same crap that I did, and nothing was done about it!!!

I'm going to take the seminar again but this time, it's definitely going to be somewhere else because, I may not be able to control my feelings if I have to put up with "Bubba" again!!!

I'm also going to call Miami, and find out if anything is going to be done this time for real because I KNOW exactly how you feel there commonarc and you're definitely not alone!!! All the best to you in your efforts to get reimbursed!!! No offense to the AWS and any of my fellow members except for one, and that's "Bubba"!!! All in all the AWS has been very beneficial for me in my career, and they've always - except for in this instance have treated me with dignity and respect but, they've got to get rid of this anomaly!!!

Respectfully,
Henry

By thirdeye (***)

Date 08-13-2007 14:14

Henry,

... Why ca'nt the AWS send you the study materials to the individuals at least two weeks prior to the start of the seminar???? By that time the payments already have been secured!!!!

I have asked that question for years myself. I have coached 7 or 8 guys through their home study for the CWI and even though a bit of it it is outdated (some from the 1980's) I loan them my study material. Two weeks ago a guy I had helped out went to the Seminar and asked the same thing. His instructor said he understood that this may be in the process of changing.

As far as quality of instructors, my personal experience and everyone that I have ever asked has reported very positive comments about the seminar instructors. In fact my buddies comments about this last seminar was VERY positive. His instructor was in the meeting room by 7AM and stayed after class as long as anyone was interested in working.

Hopefully AWS will correct the reported problems and make everything right.

~thirdeye~

By CWI555

Date 08-13-2007 14:23

[deleted]

By JA

Date 08-15-2007 12:16

what a bunch of Bull-shit.............this f**ker better not show up in Long Beach..........

By swnorris (****)

Date 08-15-2007 14:06

Undercut is a groove melted into the base metal adjacent to the weld toe or weld root and left unfilled by weld metal.

Underfill is a condition in which the weld face or root surface extends below the adjacent surface of the base metal.

By hittman375 (*)

Date 08-15-2007 15:56

I took the test almost exactly one year ago. The issue you are discussing will probably stick in my head forever. I was very inexperienced when I took the test and wasn't for sure if the sample was undercut or underfill. As I think back now, I am almost positive that it was underfill on the plastic coupon that you are talking about. I am almost positive that I missed those questions and was still able to pass the test. Good luck to you

Scott

By commonarc (**)

Date 09-30-2007 12:44 Edited 09-30-2007 12:54

Passed the CWI test. The studying must have paid off because the seminar was a waste of time and money due to the instructor. Many thanks to all who guided me. Now the learning starts.

I must have answered the undercut vs underfill question correct becasue my Practical exam score was pretty high. It was
killing me to find out. My Fundamentals was also high and the API-1104 was the lowest. I actually thought I did the best on the code portion and was very surprised because I practically memorized the whole book. Shows you how tricky some of the questions can be.

Contacted AWS about the above mentioned instructor. Nobody ever got back to me by email, letter or phone. A word of caution:
Know who your instructor is before you pay for the seminar.

By swsweld (****)

Date 09-30-2007 18:00

Congratulations commonarc! I had the same instructor as you. I studied before the seminar and every night at the hotel. Also had many years in the field welding that helped me pass the test. I still do not think I would have passed it without the seminar. I did learn about boats and classic cars too. The underfill/undercut question on the practical ap. affected several answers and was not sure until I recieved my scores of the right answer. For anyone out there contemplating taking the test, don't depend on the seminar to fully prepare you for the test.

By hogan

Date 10-01-2007 13:25

has anyone that has taken the seminar complained to the instructor, at the time of the seminar? if i was seeing that my, or my company's money was being wasted in such a manner, i would have plenty to say to the instructor. just wondering

By CWI555

Date 10-01-2007 00:59

Congrats, can't keep a good man down.

By 803056

Date 10-01-2007 16:36

Your probability of passing the CWI examination is directly related to your ability to study and absorb new information. Learning is a composite of "being shown", "trying it for yourself", i.e., hands-on experience, as well as reading and comprehension.

Some people can read a paragraph and recite it word for word a week after reading it. Some of us have to read it two or three times before it sinks in. Some of us can retain information best after we've seen it done by someone else. Then there are some of us that have to try it once or twice to understand.

I don't believe there are many of us that can learn to use a micrometer, dial caliper, or fillet weld gauges by simply reading about them in a book. We have to try them for ourselves and see how they function. Other things, like metallurgy can be learned by reading, but learning how to prepare a macro-etch sample takes some hands-on experience to do it correctly. Likewise, using a magnifying lens properly takes some hands-on practice (the vast majority of people do not use a magnifying lens properly).

The seminar is just one way or one mechanism for learning the "body of knowledge" that make up the CWI examination. Nothing beats studying at home before attending the seminar. There is simply too much material to cover and to absorb in a one week crash course.

There are many aspects of a CWI's training that needs to be presented in a facility that allows for some rather noisy demonstrations. For instance, can you imagine trying to demonstrate a fillet weld break test or a reduced tension tensile test in a hotel seminar? Those types of things are best understood if they can be seen firsthand. There are few things as impressive as seeing a Charpy test first hand. It's over in the blink of an eye and impossible to appreciate in a classroom lecture. I love the look on people's faces the first time I take them on a tour of a forge shop!

Unfortunately it's unusual for most CWI candidates to have firsthand knowledge of every subject included on the CWI examination. Those CWI candidates with a background as welders have limited knowledge of laboratory procedures, those individuals that have backgrounds in the laboratory procedures lack firsthand knowledge in welding, people that worked in NDT may lack experience working with welders or in the laboratory. A very select few have a solid background in engineering, laboratory techniques, NDT, and welding, but all those subjects are included on the CWI examination. The CWI seminar attempts to tie all the loose ends together, but it is no substitute for proper preparation by the individual planning to take the CWI examination.

To those of you that passed the CWI examination in spite of the CWI seminar, "I salute you!" I say that with a smile and I want to say that I feel your pain. The instructor of any course can make a difference in our lives. A lively instructor that enjoys the subject being taught can make attending the class a joy, the information easy to understand and we absorb most of the information presented. A poor instructor can make it a drudgery just to sit in the classroom. Our brains shut down when there is a "disconnect" between the instructor and the students. We tend to discount what we hear once the bond is broken between the instructor and the student; our brains simply will not accept the information presented by a person we don't "like". "Funny animals, we humans."

I like the suggestion that you find out who the instructor is before paying your money. For the most part (barring last minute complications), I'm sure it has been determined months in advance who the instructor will be at each seminar. If you don't get a satisfactory response, send an e-mail to Ray Shook, he is a reasonable man and I'm sure he will give you a reasonable and satisfactory answer.

Once again, if you attended a poorly presented seminar or had an instructor that was less than professional, give yourself a pat on the back for passing the CWI examination. That achievement cannot be slighted. It is a difficult test, one of the hardest I've ever passed, and you did it the hard way; you studied!

To those individuals that have passed the CWI or SCWI examinations, you have my sincerest "Congratulations". And when you have the opportunity to "teach" a class (and you will), remember how the instructors you liked taught their classes. Remember that instructors that "bored you to tears". Learn from their mistakes and triumphs; try to mimic the teaching methods of the instructors that held your attention.

Best regards - Al

By CWI555

Date 10-01-2007 20:32

Al,

That's a fairly astute summation of the matter. You raise a lot of good points, as a suggestion, maybe AWS can devote a small portion of web space for donated materials such as video and stills of charpy, tensile, CVN and other test, as well as images and video of the various welding processes. As you so noted, just being able to visualize through seeing it can pass on more information than a lecturer can pass on in a days lecture. I don't think it would be a big problem to link to it during seminars and show it on a display.
What say you Ross?

Regards,
Gerald

By 803056

Date 10-01-2007 20:52 Edited 10-02-2007 14:48

We have strayed far from the original question of this post, but the open discussions often do stray from it's origin.

Technology is great when it works and a devil when it doesn't. The AWS seminars have been refined several times over the years. I remember using the overhead projectors with transparancies, then slides, and now the computers with LCD projectors. Maybe it is time to integrate video snippets with the presentations. That wasn't a realistic expectation a few years back, but maybe the newer laptop computers and dvds have the horsepower to handle it.

Thanks for the compliment!

Best regards - Al

By commonarc (**)

Date 10-01-2007 22:42 Edited 10-01-2007 22:54

Thank you for the comments. I just hope nobody has to go through what we had to at the seminar. As far as questioning the seminar instructor, one student tried to and the instructor became VERY beligerent. The question was in regards to the difference between WELD Symbol and WELDING symbol. "Bubba" the instructor insisted there was no difference. Another student pointed out the page number in the book that spelled out the difference and "Bubba" lashed out at him and yelled "there is no difference between a weld symbol and a welding symbol, END OF DISCUSSION!!!" I'm not making this up. It was all down hill after this and the rest of the seminar was old war stories about dumb welder this and dumb welder that, 20 years ago I did this, my boat made it to shore in a storm, and my classic 1929 car should not be mistaken for a truck followed by a slide show with pictures of this car on his AWS provided computer. Plus factor in the early quits, extremely long breaks, disapperaing instructor (for hours) and telling API-1104 code people to leave early on three occasions and you get the picture. He also badmouthed AWS on numerous occassions saying that they make the practical part b section confusing and difficult on purpose "so you fail and have to spend more money to take it over". The final slap in the face was when he went behind the slide screen and actually changed his shirt, in class, to one with the word "BUBBA" on it and came out smiling! Muffled laughter from the disgusted seminar students. I was sick to my stomach with worry about how little info he actually covered in regards to what we were here for which was the CWI exam. This instructor lacked the most important and basic attribute of a welding inspector: PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDE. I swear this is exactly what happened. AWS needs to have someone attend this guys seminar without his knowledge and see for themselves. This will be my last comment on this subject. Thanks again for all the help.

By SCweld

Date 10-02-2007 13:32

That is sad! I am sorry for your experience. I took the test without the seminar and passed but I studied for a long time. This experience sounds totally unprofessional. I teach at a Tech College and sometimes real world examples and jokes get the point across but this sounds out of the ordinary. I do not feel that the CWI exam, part B, is designed to fool or trick anyone but only to show you the difficult decisions you will be called upon to make. The test, I felt was fairly straight forward and well prepared. Please do not judge the AWS on a sad encounter with a bad instructor. It still is a good organization, clearly seen by the intelligence shown on this board, and all professional organizations have their black sheep. Money is a terrible thing to waste and I feel for your disappointment. Take whatever action is necessary. I applaud you for standing up and saying 'this is not right'. But there are great instructors out there and 'usually' the seminars are beneficial. They, of course, are not substitutes for personal study but are informative non-the-less. I wish you the best and feel you deserved better than what you got and am sure you will succeed in the welding field!!

Sincerely,

Jim

By spiedan (*)

Date 10-03-2007 14:39

Commonarc,

I know you said you had made your last comment on this subject, but can you answer one more question? Where in the book (and which book) does it show the difference between a "weld symbol" and a "welding symbol"? I can't find it in the D1.1 or D1.5.
Congrats on passing your exam under less than ideal conditions!

Respectfully, Dan

By hogan

Date 10-03-2007 15:02

would it be in A3.0

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-03-2007 15:08

Hogan, A3.0 just lists the definition of a Welding symbol and only says that it is a graphical representation of a weld. It does not define each term as was asked in the post above.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-03-2007 15:04

It is mentioned in A2.4 paragraph 1.1, spelled out in Paragraphs 1.2 and 1.3

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-03-2007 15:11

D1.1 only refers you to A2.4 in Paragraph 1.6 D1.1:2006

By hogan

Date 10-03-2007 17:07

it was more of a guess i don't have a copy here

By commonarc (**)

Date 10-03-2007 22:51 Edited 10-04-2007 02:10

Welding Inspection Technology Fourth Edition published by AWS Education Department. This was the book handed out to us at the
CWI Seminar in August of 2007. Module 4, Page 4-29 states:

WELD SYMBOL vs WELDING SYMBOL

"AWS makes a distinction between the terms weld symbol and welding symbol. The weld symbol (see figure 4.38) identifies a specific type of weld and is only part of the total information contained in the welding symbol. Weld symbols are drawn above and below the reference line of the welding symbol. The welding symbol (Figure 4.39) indicates the total symbol, including all information apllied to it, to specify the weld(s) required. All welding symbols require a reference line and an arrow, and these are shown in Figure 4.37."

This subject was also mentioned in the Certification Manual for Welding Inspectors, Fourth Edition, Chapter 6 Welding & Nondestructive Examination Symbols, Page 72:

ELEMENTS of the WELDING SYMBOL:

A basic distinction is the difference between the terms weld symbol and welding symbol. As stated in AWS A2.4, the weld symbol "indicates the type of weld, and when used, is part of the welding symbol." The welding symbol is defined as "a graphical representation of a weld......................................."

"Bubba", the CWI instructor at the Pittsburgh seminar actually wrote the preface for this certification manual.

By arrowside (**)

Date 10-16-2007 13:48

I took the CWI seminar with "Bubba" in Philadelphia in September of 2007. Everything that commonarc said still holds true. Everyone in the seminar was extremely disappointed with "Bubba". We all felt as though we were stolen from. I cannot believe that the AWS allows this situation to persist. I wrote AWS on the situation yesterday, but from what I read on this forum I can see that my disappointment will only grow deeper. This was my first AWS seminar, and if it is any indication of how AWS operates, it will most definitely be my last. I don't know who "Bubba" knows at AWS, but in my opinion they should both be flogged and terminated. This situation is the definition of lack of professionalism.

By eekpod

Date 10-16-2007 22:23

Call AWS, and ask to speak to the asst. director of the Seminars Dept, they want to hear from all who attented that class and have complaints/ concerns, we did and they called us back. Chris

By awspartb (***)

Date 10-16-2007 22:35 Edited 10-16-2007 22:39

Do you have a phone number and extension? I tried calling and emailing AWS and nobody ever got back to me. There was another forum about this same instructor almost two years ago and AWS was supposed to have addressed this issue. Obviously they did not.

AWS owes everyone a refund for this fraud. I'm out $2500 that I could have used elsewhere, plus a weeks vacation. This will also be my last AWS seminar. There are many other options available.

By arrowside (**)

Date 10-16-2007 23:06

I also paid for the seminar out of my own pocket. I guess that the question I have for the AWS at this point is, If that they REALLY want to hear from those that were in that particular class, why haven't they contacted us? They very easily could have attached a brief letter with our exam results. My out of pocket total for that fiasco totals upwards of 3300.00. I also want to make it abundantly clear to all who are reading these posts that I did not ever expect the man to teach us how to pass the exam. I did, however,expect him to spend at least 90% of the alloted time educating us on what we need to learn to become a CWI. That did not happen. I have restored a classic car, owned homes, and have no interest in boats. I didn't travel to Philadelphia and pay for a CWI seminar to learn about those things.

By awspartb (***)

Date 10-17-2007 01:37 Edited 10-17-2007 01:48

Yes, you are correct, AWS knows who we all are. They have our mailing addresses and phone numbers along with our money. They should be contacting us about this incompetent fraud who is teaching the CWI seminar all over the east coast.

Word travels fast in the skilled trades. There are many options other than AWS for becoming a CWI. I can assure you that hundreds of people in the welding trades already know about "Bubba" just since the August 2007 Pittsburgh seminar.

Eugene G. Hornberger, AKA "Bubba" needs to go. I hate to call this guy out by name and take no pleasure in doing so but wasting thousands of dollars of my money plus an unpaid week of vacation requires it be done. And yes, he is connected big time with AWS HQ. Find out who your seminar instructor is before wasting your time and money. If it's this guy, DON'T ATTEND THE SEMINAR and let AWS know why.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 10-17-2007 03:42 Edited 10-17-2007 03:59

My question is: What requirements/skills/qualifications/experiences are needed to be a "seminar instructor"?
At the risk of the amount of flack I'm going to receive, I have to say that "if you don't know your subject material to begin with, a 40 hour seminar will not teach you". A seminar usually is used to refresh and enhance what you already know. Also, I do not agree with "the afore mentioned individual" introducing his personal experiences during his regurgitation of information. Bottom line: AWS must be more selective of those they choose to make money for their organization!

By arrowside (**)

Date 10-17-2007 16:06

"Call AWS, and ask to speak to the asst. director of the Seminars Dept, they want to hear from all who attented that class and have complaints/ concerns, we did and they called us back." Chris

I tried what Chris suggested above and was told that there is no one at AWS with that title. Chris, could you possibly just tell us with whom you spoke? Also, what did they tell you when they called you back?

By eekpod

Date 10-17-2007 17:18

The woman's name is Martika (sp) and her phone number is
1-800-443-9353 Ext. 224.

When I spoke w/ her 2 weeks ago and explained my concerns, she put me in touch w/ her boss, the asst director of Seminars, but I can't find his name, if I do I'll post it here. Chris

By arrowside (**)

Date 10-17-2007 17:53

Thank You.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 10-17-2007 22:27

JMHO you are on a fools errand trying to get AWS attention on this issue. AWS is a great mimbership organization, but they are not a good member organization. Different sections are very active and if you can get the Pittsburg section where the seminar was held to raise cain then AWS will care. But all they really want from individual members is $$$ and until a large active section brings the hammer down on this buffoon, AWS will not care a whit. This guy has been doing this for years with complaints and you can see what AWS has done about it. The Pittsburg section starts screaming for his head, something will happen. Individual members, AWS could care less.

By arrowside (**)

Date 10-18-2007 00:13

I know for a fact that one of the guys in my seminar was from the Philadelphia section and he recorded the entire seminar. He did it electronically, with Bubba's permission, and would download it to his laptop at every break. Maybe 70 or so members all lined up in a court room would get their attention.

By awspartb (***)

Date 10-18-2007 01:45

Let me know if you need someone to verify your horrible experience with Eugene the seminar instructor in a court of law.
I feel the Attorney Generals office of the state in which you took the CWI seminar should look into this as possible fraud. AWS is headquarted in Miami so maybe the Florida AG would be interested also. Plus the issue of multi-states could make this fraud a Federal issue.

The comments that Bubba made over and over about AWS making the Part B section "misleading and difficult on purpose so you have to take it over and spend more money" should be enough to start a fraud investigation. If this statement, by an AWS big shot were recorded, it would go a long way for all of us getting a refund and getting this guy prosecuted. An AWS CWI seminar is big money. Over 30 people attended the one I took in Pittsburgh. Over $1600 each plus expenses. This is grand theft as far as I'm concerned. If someone has Bubba recorded, they should contact the AG or a private attorney. I know I saw one guy recording the seminar in Pittsburgh but never got his name.

By johnnyh (***)

Date 10-18-2007 13:12

Keep us updated. This seems to be picking up some steam.

By Stringer (***)

Date 10-25-2007 03:52

I'm on my way to Houston to try my hand at the seminar and test. I read these posts with trepidation. I want to side with AWS. When I first inspected, there was no certification program. The material is valid. Welding is difficult and important. Inspection is difficult and important. The engineering is important not just to my career, but to our society. Knowing the cadre of welders on a personal level for over 30 years, however, I'm quite surprised anyone with any experience with welders would, in cavalier fashion, aggravate them in any way.
Stringer

By awspartb (***)

Date 10-25-2007 22:07

I think you'll be OK taking the CWI seminar in TX. Bubba, AKA Eugene Hornberger, doesn't like to travel far from the East coast. He told us that over and over and over and over again. He doesn't like to fly and drives to the seminar exam sites. Bubba will be packing up sample kits and computer items for shipping to the next seminar with duct tape right in class while he supposed to be teaching you. The sound of duct tape being torn and carts full of equipment going by you while you are taking the sample tests will be a serious distraction, I can assure you. He WILL let you know when happy hour is at the hotel bar so pay attention.

Anyone from Florida to Maine or out west to say Ohio is in danger of having Bubba as a CWI seminar instructor. Pittsburgh, Philly, North Carolina and Virginia are known "Bubba" seminar sites. This man, Eugene Hornberger, has utter contempt for the average welder. They are all idiots according to him. Many of us in the seminar were deeply offended by his lack of professionalism and horrible comments.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 10-18-2007 14:01

I too had issues with thet replica. Right or wrong, here is what is in my head.

The page is at http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/undercutunderfill.htm if you want to make any comments that I could put with the page.

Gerald

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-18-2007 15:12

Gerald,
I agree with your sketches and descriptions.

By ZCat

Date 10-18-2007 15:17

How would you measure undercut if it was also underfilled in the same spot?