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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding different metals in same shop
- - By rebekah (**) Date 10-15-2007 14:55
Hey all

I was wondering how shops that do a variety of metals get around contamination issues.  Apparently, this shop didnt weld any steel inside for a long time.  There was another crew that did all the steel welding outside under a roof.  A period of dead time happened and now those guys dont do any welding and I am doing all the steel welding, large and small scale, as well as the aluminum and stainless steel welding.  I had been setting the big stuff up outside the shop--but still within in the building--and the small stuff up inside the weld shop.  Whenever  I weld aluminum or stainless steel, I put away the steel contaminated tools (I have dedicated storage for aluminum-, steel-, stainless steel- and titanium-only tools) clean up the shop by blowing off  with an air hose and sweeping up after the dust settles and wiping down the table with alcohol until it wipes clean.  My coworker just told me that meeting miltary codes for welding titanium is impossible to meet if there is any steel welding going on in the weld shop.  Since we only weld titanium to military specs once in a blue moon (maybe every five years or so) it seems strange to give up the comforts of the weld shop set up to move everything outside--comforts mainly being access to tools and a level table with a two ton overhead crane.

I am not at all familiare with welding to military specs or most codes for that matter so your input would be appreciated.  I dont mind moving stuff outside if that is what needs to be done, but I need to justify it to my boss because it will take alot of time and money because the area that they used to weld in is totally changed--overgrown and they worked from a weld truck that has since been taken away so there is nothing out there, no tools, no equipment, no welding machine. 

My coworkder told me right in the middle of a large steel job so right now, I am not doing any grinding within the welding area so I can figure out the best way to make it right.

How would yall navigate this?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-15-2007 15:15
Becks,

First off I would get my hands on the "Mil-Spec" your partner referrs to and get the straight story on requirements.

Some fabricators have dedicated sealed areas to seperate Stainless from Carbon steels etc. Others use seperate buildings. Keeping seperate tools/tooling may be a stringent requirment as well as common sense. Alot depends on what kind of auditing will be required.

But really the best thing would be to take the time and expense to obtain and understand the specifications you will be required to comply with...  Once you have that information you can worry about what goes where and how much time and effort it will take.
Parent - - By jd369 (**) Date 10-15-2007 15:29
  I agree that the first step is to aquire the spec. Most Mil specs have changed to AMS or in some cases AWS now. Do you have the spec number, I may have a copy.
JD369
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-15-2007 16:46
I have been to facilities that partitioned off areas for welding aluminum, titanium or other reactive metals when other work involving a different base metal was also being done.

They used heavy plastic sheets from ceiling to floor with all joints taped with duct tape to prevent cross contamination. While working on the reactive metals, all cleaning was done with a HEPA filter equipped vacuum, i.e., not sweeping within the confined room.

It seemed to work with respect to preventing cross contamination.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-15-2007 16:59
As stringent a segregation as possible is certainly preferable in most cases, but this isn't always possible. It is more critical to some alloys than to others.
For Ti/Zr segregation is an absolute necessity. For stainless with carbon, or various CrMo alloys with carbon (CrMo are almost always fabricated in the exact same locations and is it any less critical to ensure materials with carbon and Grade 91 as anything else?), common shop fabrication is not unusual. Color coding materials, fillers, tools is a possible course of action.
The idea is to be able to enforce and verify the control of materials in a manner that can ensure weld viability. Each alloy and shop environment needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 10-15-2007 17:58
So all our titanium is welded in a collapsible chamber used exclusively for titanium welding.  It is the only place that we weld titanium.  Prior to welding, the shop is cleaned (I heard the part about a HEPA filter with shop vac, that can be easily obtained) and the titanium piece is placed on a clean stainless steel sheet (to avoid the table top, though the table is aluminum not steel) while it is cleaned with the proper solvents and handled with white gloves when it is placed in the chamber and sealed up.  Would that count as "stringent segregation"? 

I couldnt find the Mil Spec she was referring to but in the AWS D1.9/D1.9M:2007 Structural Welding Code--Ti, I couldnt find any mention of seperate areas.  Just not to weld in environments that could contaminate the weld, mentioning welding outside in windy conditions.

In the case of Stainless steel, we clean the shop and all stainless is passivated before it goes anywhere--well, it goes out to be passivated--but we make every attempt to keep carbon steel away from it anyway.

Aluminum is the same, clean out the shop and take care not to have contact with carbon steel.

Because we are a research facility, alot of what we do is not to code and doesnt get inspected.  It is the rare job where there are stringent requirements.  In one week we can have a full array of different materials come through the shop, large and small jobs, so I am just trying to find a way that makes sense.

I will keep looking for the Mil Specs she referred to.

Thanks
Parent - - By jd369 (**) Date 10-15-2007 22:20
I have not seen any designation for this in any of the mil specs that I use(used to use) and we also adhere to NADCAP and that isn't a part of the audit from any of the OEM's.  It sounds to me like you are doing a good job of keeping things segrated and preventing cross contamination. I would ask for hte spec and paragraph that they are referring to.
How's your flexible purge chamber work? I have built 2 solid case ones from stainless and plexiglass for different jobs and prefer it to the flexible chamber. The guys really like welding in it, you may want to build one for yourself.
Regards
JD369
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 10-16-2007 17:47 Edited 10-16-2007 17:52
JD369

Thanks for the input, definitely looking for someone who has done alot of this before. The purge chamber works really well.  For what we use it for, the flexible/collapsible is really nice.  We can modify it easily for different sizes of pieces to save on the cost of gas, sometimes it is just a tiny piece that needs to be done and other times it is a production run of some pretty hefty material.  The woman who designed it wrote an article for AWS that was published in the 80's I believe ( I cant find it right yet to give you the details).  I have thought about a solid case so that it can be stored and moved around easily but have met resistance--since the woman who designed this collapsible chamber is also the woman I work with, she's pretty partial to the collapsible design.  Who can blame her?  Basically it is plastic and duct tape with an aluminum base and port with rubber heat resistant gloves.  We fix the lens where ever is convienent and fill it up with argon.  We get the big ol liquid tanks for that.  We have a gauge that dumps really fast connected to a y yoke so the  gas flows in from two directions.  There are holes in the top of the chamber to let the oxygen escape.  We keep some test coupons in there to test the purity of the atmosphere, when it is silver its clean.  We than lessen the flow of argon and direct the tubes to the piece we are working on and weld away.  I have some photos some where, I will try and locate them.

Anyways, in your shop before, you welded titanium as well as other materials, using your chamber to weld the titanium, and you didnt run into any problems with contamination?  I would be interested in hearing your procedure.  There are so many little things that can slip by, for example, previously the shop would use tap water to wash the machine oil off the titanium pieces but it specifically says not to because of possible contamination with chlorine.  Just one sentence that got overlooked. 

Appreciate everyones response.

Rebekah
Parent - - By jd369 (**) Date 10-16-2007 23:06
Hi Rebekah
  Glad to hear that the purge chamber was home made, that's great. Sounds like it's working fine and suiting your needs. We had a large fleible purge chamber and it was like sticking your arms in a marshmellow to weld so we built a hard chaber and have been pretty happy with it. I'm just finishing another one for a specific part and hopefully it works just as well.
  We work for alot of the larger OEM's for aerospace and so we must comply with NADCAP requirements. When setting up the weld shop I look at all of our customer specs (each customer has there own) and I take the most stringent requirements from those and set the shop up accordingly. For instance for argon purity I will review all customer requirements for purity and dew point and then set up our own internal quality documents to comply with the most strict of these. I carry this down for all of the general shop requirements.
  So far I have not come across a customer spec that dictates that I must  have a dedicated building or room for a particular material. We commonly weld different alloys in the same booth, actually many of our components being welded are from different material goups as layed out in AWS D17.1. Quite often on engine components we are welding a GpII material to a GpIII material, so we can not have seperate areas to weld different materials. We do control many aspects of the areas by segrating grinding/sanding/ polishing wheels by the material they are used on. Only one type of weld wire allowed in the booth at a time etc, etc. 
How is your shop set up, do you use a shop router and operation sheets for each job performed? We use a "travel card" with each part going through the shop. When it comes to the weld area the welder will look at the weld operation they are to perform. Then they will obtain the operation sheets for that operation. They will verify that all previous operations on the travel card have been claimed prior to performing the weld. They will then check to see that the revision level on the travel card matches the revision level on the operation sheet. Then they will verify that I have signed the operation sheet and that there weld ticket matches what is called out on the operation sheet. Once this is all verified they will follow the step by step procedure that I have prepared and perform the weld. When they are finished they will date and stamp the travel card with there weld stamp and write the heat and lot # of the filler wire used on the travel card.
  From a welding standpoint it doesn't really matter what material is being welded when they follow the operation sheets. I perform weekly audits of the welding areas and document everything using checklists. You need to document everything you do when you yourself will be audited later. I perform a lot of specific training for specific parts when they are new to the shop. I include sheet metal, welders, NDT, expiditers etc. from that particular cell to ensure everyone is trained on new jobs and what needs to be done ( specific cleaning, no touching titanium parts without white gloves etc.)
I hope this helps a bit, please let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll try to help you. I'd still like to know the spec that they were referring to in your original psot if possible.
Regards
JD369
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 10-17-2007 13:26
JD369

You sound like you run an efficient shop. 
Ours is a little odd. 
I believe that the weld shop was originally set up to support the machinists, there are 6 full time machinists running CNC and manual machines and only one full time welder (me-though I also do CNC and manual when needed) and the other welder mainly does coordinate measuring--which is a QC check for  the machinists--and only welds the more complicated stuff, she's been here for 20 years.  We are part of a university's research laboratory and part of our charter is not to do production work, with the rare exception of course.  For the most part, we weld the structures and components that support the engineer's designs for them to test and present to the client which for the most part is the Navy.  From that point on, the designs go out of our shop to be made else where.  Sometimes what we do is just to test a theory and then the finished piece is not used again.  The shop is not very exacting on being up to code, because most of the time what we are working on doesnt require it, and there is hardly any testing, auditing or any other screening of our work--we just take pride in doing the best that we can.  If the job requires certification, then of course we do it but in two years, only two projects have required it--a structural steel job that I did and a titanium housing that the other welder did.  Most days I can find on my desk a work order for a steel fixture, a stainless steel repair for a machinist, a frame of aluminum that will take a month to make working from shoddy blueprints--sometimes the engineers are students, at which point we show them the right way to put welding symbols and such in--and answering questions about all manners of metals and how they will react with different conditions.  I spend alot of time in this forum or in books trying to find the right answer.  I offered to get certified in everything but they were waiting for the other welder to certify as a CWI so she could do it for me, but she hasnt made it through the process yet.  Otherwise, they dont want to pay the money for it to be done by an outside source.
Whenever we are asked to do something that we arent qualified to do--see thread on HTing AL 6061--or absolutely needs documentation--mil spec titanium--we try and keep a record of what we did so if there are any problems we can refer to those.  In the 20 years that the other welder has been here, there has only been one instance that she was called on to present documentation.  Now that she has gone through the CWI process, she is more aware of what is needed, which is why the contamination of the titanium came up.
Otherwise, we just take each job as it comes.  Luckily, the engineers really appreciate what we do for them.  It is easier for them to run over here and change something that they realized after the fact than if they had to take the project to another location altogether.  The procedure at your shop works because once the blueprints are there, they are assumed correct and are followed to the letter, which is how they should be.  Here we NEVER trust a blueprint--I cant tell you how many times the engineers say they just thought it looked right or they just pasted it from another blueprint that was similar!  So we are a little different.  It sounds like your shop is run really well and there are times that that sounds wonderful--it can be stressful trying to figure stuff out on your own--but the flexibility built into our shop makes it work best for the engineers.  Since they are the ones that pay us, they win. 

Rebekah
Parent - By jd369 (**) Date 10-18-2007 11:01
Hi Rebekah
  It sounds like what your doing is adequate for your purposes in regards to cross contamination. They only thing that I would change would be putting titanium parts on an aluminum plate in the purge chamber, otherwise it sounds good.
  Our shop is run like any other aerospace facility, they have to operate like this to meet customer demands.
Rergards
JD369
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 11-09-2007 17:14
Hey Lawerence,

This is a little delayed but I found out what "MilSpec" was being referenced--NavSea.  Apparently, the other welder has been pushing for 20 years to get the lab to go to that standard and has met opposition, or, more likely inertia, this is a pretty big place and to change everything to such an exacting standard would take a lot of effort.  From what she said, there are only 5 shops in the nation that are up to that standard--one aspect of which is having a seperate room for welding the different materials.  I dont know if that would be a different room for each material or just ferrous/non-ferrous distintion.  Unfortunately, I dont have much information about NavSea, the university maintains a database with 15 different Standards (AWS, ASTM, ASME, etc) but I havent found the document that regulates NavSea welding.  There is one for "Leave and Liberty" and one for "Watchstanding", but not one for welding. 

If anyone has input on this I would appreciate it.

Thanks

Rebekah

(Oh, and Lawerence, my shop name is "Reb"--short for Rebekah and Rebel.  I am the only "liberal" in the shop.  Only my dead G-ma called me "Becks" :-) )
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-09-2007 17:23 Edited 11-09-2007 17:42
Rebelbackah

The University may matain a small database but they have agreements with just about everybody... If you are working with the University or a student you should be able to have that NAVSEA stuff brought to you.  Berkley, Livermore, Stanford, USF, SF State and everybody else have sharing agreements. You will just need to find the person who will say "Yes."

There will probably be a multitude of NavSea doccuments conserning welding... Once you get access you will still have a needle in a haystack unless you can determine specifically which standard you need
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 11-09-2007 17:57
Lawerence,

I thought alot would pop up too, but when I entered "welding", only one popped up and it was marked no access.  The summary said that it was standards concerning welding and brazing.  There are tons of NavSea doc but not that I have found concerning welding.  Is there another term, that I should be looking for?

Thanks

RebelBekah :-)
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-09-2007 18:45
Adequate Security clearance may be necessary in order to gain access to some welding data...
You might also want to contact EWI or, MANTECH also... they have close contacts with the USN concerning NAVSEA/NAVSHIPS data.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-09-2007 18:59
Check

NAVSEA Technical Publication S9074-AR-GIB-010/278
Requirements for Welding and Brazing Procedure and Performance Qualificationwhich REPLACES MIL-STD-248D

Further research
http://usashipbuilding.com/st2005/Product%20Design%20and%20Materials/Presentations/Tran.pdf

http://www.nstcenter.com/docs/PDFs/JINII-Meeting-2000November-Presentation-ItemStatus.pdf

These guys are NavSea qualification experts
http://storkview.storksmt.com/specsite/newspecdetail.asp?topic=NAVSEA_S9074-AQ-GIB-010&sid=1370
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding different metals in same shop

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