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Are asking about a situation like in the very last pic?
In reality.....Doesn't really matter it still has to be full section, so weld metal has to be added to make the joint full.
But to answer your question, I would use an undercut gage and try to measure only what I saw that was undercut, if I had to put a measurement on the report(or answer that question on an exam).
edit added pic of undercut gage that I use. It lays on the material and measures the difference in elevation of the undercut vs the surface of the material.
Kind of tough to do on scratched up PLASTIC model that is worn out from METAL gauges being used over and over on them.
The undercut would be measured in relation to the surface of the material being welded OR the surface of the material adjacent to the toe of the weld. In the real world AND my opinion, the weld is just not done yet ! Undercut in an underfilled joint is a mute point if the undercut is adjacent to the area that will be welded up to correct the underfill. Telling a welder that the joint is underfilled would be all that is needed to correct both the underfill and the undercut. I think that is one of the reasons that question causes problems.
I found the guys name whom I spoke with a couple of weeks ago.
Mr Dennis Marks, asst. director of seminars, he told me if I know of anyone else who had any complaints or concerns to contact him. Yuo can get his ext # through the AWS directory. I was sent to him through MArtika Ventura at ext. 224. Again the main number is 1-800-443-9353, good luck, Chris
By the way I also agree w/ all the conclusions on the undercut / underfilll pics above. Chris
I totally agree with the sketches and I had the same replica on my CWI exam. One of the questions was what is the depth of undercut in this joint or something like that and I measured from the spot where is was undefilled and undercut because that was the deepest spot. If they were not calling that portion of the joint undercut and were just calling it undefilled then the answer would have been wrong so I questioned myself and I hate that. They don't teach you how to answer questions like that. You shouldn't have to guess. I could teach my mom what undercut is and what undefilled is, but don't put them in the same dam spot and ask a question like what is the dept of undercut. If you were a CWI in the real world you would never be put in a situation like that because you would see that the joint was undefiled and then it would be scraped or repaired. I guess what I'm saying is the test should be real world examples and not ask a question like that.
Under what circumstances does it matter whether something is undercut or underfill?
Hg
for d1.1 you are allowed a % of undercut, not with underfill
that question needs to be challenged!
Like Bubba said, they make it misleading on purpose so you fail and have to take it over again. He should know as he is an AWS big deal. Bubba said the above statement every single day during the Pittsburgh CWI seminar in August of 2007. He also mentioned that he personally took the Part B Practical section on his own and found it to be very difficult. He didn't mention if he passed or failed it. It was then that he started his rant about AWS making it this way on purpose to cause people to fail and pay more money to take it over again. Note that I passed the exam on the first try but it had nothing at all to do with Bubba. It was due to 6 months of study. He also said that API-1104 code book people should leave class early so he could help the D1.1 guys out. They, the D1.1 people, left the class shaking their heads in disgust around 15 to 20 minute later. Lots of talk about bubba the ignorant welder, welders are stupid, story telling from his glory days in the shipyard, etc. Next to nothing to help prepare for the code portion of the exam. We never stayed in class the full 8 hours. Never. He left class for hours at a time while we were told to study or take a practice test. He left class during coffee breaks for close to an hour. It was horrible.
By arrowside 
Date 10-19-2007 00:58
Edited 10-19-2007 12:58
Bubba explained to those of us that were at the Philly seminar that it was the hardest practical he had ever seen. Then he made it a point to COMPLETELY under prepare us for that portion of the exam! He simply skimmed through the prep material and left us on our own. He made sure to tell us about the shipyard, bubba, houses here and there, but did not help us for squat as far as the practical went. Not that he was any good for the other two portions either, but the effort that he put into the practical was ZILCH!!!!
how far in ,,, in a transverse way,, does the undercut have to be before it becomes underfill..........?
The plastic weld replica models I had during the CWI Exam were very worn from the METAL undercut gauges wearing down the designated measuring area. TOOL STEEL gauges,with sharp points, being used over and over on plastic weld replica models had worn them down to the point of making the models impossible to interpret. There was just a worn down white line on the grey colored plastic model where the measuring was supposed to take place. PLASTIC is not an ideal medium for using TOOL STEEL gauges as a measuring instrument as they wear it down in short order. This is common sense. AWS needs to get it together on this issue.
I would agree with your sketchs. "Bubba wroonng agaain"
is this false advertising or what?
Not to jump to the defense of AWS, but;
There is still a pretty reasonable experience requirement and verification process that must be satisfied before anybody can sit for the exam eh?
The ironic part is that they say they can "certify" inspectors in a week.... It took many many weeks for me to be certified after taking the seminar and exam :)
It does seem to fly in the face of reality and what most AWS reps say about the seminars....
JA- I would say that if the base metal is not negatively affected, it is underfill. If that "notch" that you see in the above pictures is present, then it is undercut. Thus, in my interpretation, it is impossible to measure undercut where there is none. So, if on the test they ask you to measure the deepest undercut, your measurement will be taken outside the weld zone, and actually will be measured "into" the base metal. That is, if the sample shows both defects. I just took the exam in September, so can someone with experience please tell me if my interpretation is correct? I do beleive that I missed this on the exam.
it says it "trains & certifies" in a week. that could explain why so many go to the seminar thinking that they will be trained to pass the exam!
I have stated in the past that the CWI seminar is training you to pass a test, not training you as an inspector. This is the main reason I prefer ASNT's program. You can train according to your written practice and then give a test to prove that the potintial inspector has gained the knowlege to perform the inspections. You can custom design for the industry your in. We do mainly power plants so our program is designed around those requirments and codes. I don't know how many times I have hired a CWI and watched how he would go to the field and start inspecting with no acceptance and rejection criteria, no inspection tools, just his eye balls. Alot of times when I would ask that person how they think they can do that, they would reply, most of the time "I have it in my head, or I am a CWI I know what I'm doing.
Thanks
Jim
"I have it in my head". Thats one of 'the' worst mistakes that can be made.
Not everyone can be in the top 10% of the class.
Al
Had I known the CWI was held in such low regard by the inspection community, I would have taken an alternative route.
In the trade unions, they could care less that you studied for months and became a CWI on your own dollar. The company and the unions decide who will become an Inspector and most train them to their own standards. Natural Gas companies have their own standards ( based on API-1104) , Power Plants work to ASME Section IX which could care less if you were a CWI or not as long as you are a 'qualified person' by the company. They pick the people they can control. Sad but true. An AWS CWI is good to have, but not great. It won't get you anywhere by itself. In fact, it may get you rejected for a job offer as a welder because the person hiring who doesn't have a CWI may feel threatened by you. In retrospect, I wish I'd spent my money elsewhere as the market is becoming flooded with early 20 somethings who passed a CWI exam, often on the second or third try, with little or no welding experience. Six months in a sheet metal shop GMAW welding boat trailors are the profiles of several people I saw at the Pittsburgh seminar. Good ambitious people but not the person you'd want to inspect a pressure vessel, bridge weld or anything for that matter. They are the competition that you, with your college degree and 20 or more years in the welding field will be dealing with. Factor this along with the incompetent hacks that the AWS are sending to teach the seminars and you'll get the picture. I'm not saying all AWS instructors are hacks but the one they sent to Pittsburgh in August of 2007 was as horrible as it gets. I'm done with AWS seminars. Lots of other options available. PUNCHING OUT.
A college degree is no guarantee of success, nor is a CWI certification.
I've seen self-made men that never graduated high school, yet because of their inner strengths and drive were well respected and prospered.
I've seen my class valedictorian, with a college degree, give up hope and die as a homeless street person.
The CWI certificate, just like the college degree, opens doors of opportunity for many people, but their capabilities and performance will determine the level of success they achieve.
Good luck with your new pursuits.
Best regards - Al
Hi All!
Gerald,
in the second from top drawing, would you consider the un-fused sidewall part to be lack of sidewall fusion? So ineffect, you have two seperate defects, lack of fill and suface breaking,lack of side wall fusion?
Regards
I would not consider it lack of fusion since all of the weld metal is fused.
This would fall into that interpretation in my opinion.
Sirs,
I am the District Director, I am also a CWI and know the stress of taking the exam and the cost involved.
Please all that had this instructor email me your complaints and I promise you that I will take this up at national.
Arcstrike
AWS District Director
Just as an update, I believe AWS is listening. They are currently hiring for contract CWI, SCWI, and radiographic interpreter trainer.
Any of you out there that wish to do something about the problem, throw your names in the hat.
Regards,
Gerald
Has anybody out there had any news from AWS on the Pittsburgh (nightmare) in the pastfew days.
If you contact AWS in Miami, they will work with you to make it right.They were actually very pleasant and easy to work with. I am very impressed.
Arrowside
What exactly did the AWS do to make it right?
I'd like to know what AWS did to make it right. Eugene H. has been getting away with this for years and AWS has done nothing about it. Sounds like typical AWS garbage to me. Was the seminar instructor, Eugene H., replaced? Fired? What? Are they giving refunds? I tried calling and got voice mail. Of course nobody ever got back to me. The guy posting on this forum as an AWS contact won't even give his real name, just his forum name ARCSTRIKE. Are you kidding me? Should I call AWS and ask to speak to ARCSTRIKE? Maybe he works for the CIA and is undercover. I wish I could inspect high pressure steam pipe and use a web forum nickname as a contact should there be a problem. Maybe AWS can start a program for anonymous welding inspectors. You can call it "The Invisible Rubber Stamp CWI Seminar" , nobody has to know who you are. Just a thought.
Unless the Pittsburg section takes AWS to the woodshead over this BOZO nothing is going to happen. I have been a member of AWS since 1988. I figured out a LOOOONG time ago, AWS is not for individual members. My hat is off to them for this forum, but if AWS would not have done it, someone else would have. And again, this forum is not designed for individual members. Even the charter for AWS does not mention individual members. So this jerk will continue teaching classes until the Pit section and othere sections refuse to have him. The members of the Pittsburg section could cause a change. But individual members will have no effect on Miami. The attitude is if you dont like it, quit. I have tried to get my section membership changed for several years. I am assigned to the San Antonio section andl live over 400 miles from there. THere is another section closer and I have requested several times to be changed, but to no avail. Nothing against the San Antonio section, it is just I will never have the opportunity to attend a meeting let alone be a part of the sections other than them getting their little slice of my membership dues.
Word travels FAST in the trades. I can assure you that the Union members in the Northeast know all about the incompetent instructor teaching in Pittsburgh, Philly and many other areas in the Northeast. I am DISGUSTED with AWS HQ in Miami. Nothing but voice mail and non returned phone calls plus ignored emails. Nobody is EVER in the office regardless of what time of the day you call. You just get some secretary who forwards you to voice mail. Horrible! Maybe the AWS District Director (director of WHAT?) known as ARC STRIKE can provide an actual name and phone number instead of hiding behind some forum nickname? Spineless!
I will call AWS on Friday 11-06-07 and ask to speak to AWS District Director ARC STRIKE. Should be a load of fun! I'll post the transcript of the conversation.
if you click on his name, you will see his real name on his email addy!
I have to respectfully disagree with you awspartb regarding arcstrike!!!
As ctacker already explained, just click on his name!
Ken Stockton is a fine man, a stand up fellow, and has more spine than you'll ever know!!!
I know because I worked with him for a few years in New Jersey when we taught together there.
Ken was referring to anyone within his district when he made his initial post on this thread so please re-read it so you can then better understand where he's coming from! Have a Nice Day!!!
Henry
Your name and particulars are also hidden. Are you Spineless?
Ken Stockton is his name, and he isn't anonymous and he isn't spineless. However you can't call him at AWS Headquarters. He ia an AWS Volunteer, who is on the AWS Board of Directors. Read the AWS Welding Journal. You can find his number there. Are you even a member of the AWS?
You can attend any AWS Section in the United States or overseas. You can request a specific section when you submit your membership application and I believe you can change it on your renewal. You can also ask the Chairman of the section you want to be in to add you to their mailing list. Each section receives funds from Miami based on their head-count, so I can't imagine any chairman that wouldn't enjoy add you to their roster.
Best regards - Al
Thanks Al.
seems to me the four different people in Miami I talked to could have told me the same thing. What I got from them was, sure no problem. You will be changed to another chapter. Next renewal, San Antonio. This reinforces what I have been saying. One can get things done through individual sections, but the BS that comes from Miami about the membership is just sales. If all the individual members went away, AWS would still exist and they know that. Look at API. THey do not even pretend they are for individual members. They are simply for the petroleum business. AWS is the samw way. It is up to individual sections to be for the members. Some do an outstanding job, others are just so individuals can get a line on their resume.
I think it's time this forum be laid to rest. I'm sure it's obvious that AWS has an instructor problem. What they do about it is another matter. I suggest all who are planning to attend an AWS CWI seminar insist on knowing who the instructor is before signing up.
This is not the first time this topic has appeared on this forum. Let's hope it's the last time we see it. Of course that's up to AWS Miami.
I have just been told that the instructor in question has resigned.
Joe I think he has been eligible for retirement for several years now, why he didn't go and enjoy his boat many years ago is beyond me. It's not like he needs the money. Thanks for the update.
Gentlemen,
The Seminar (and the assigned instructor) are entirely under the control of the Education Department in Miami and "Pittsburgh" traditionally has no inpute to the siminar at all.
I do not know who "Bubba" is but I advised the appropriate people in Miami that "Bubba" should be investigated and if he is the recipient of frequent complaints; appropriate action should be taken.
As the Certification Chairman for the Pittsburgh Section - beleive me; they will listen.
I just read all of the dialogue about "Bubba" and appologize for not reading the Forum in the past.
Now that I read the complaints - I know what to do and how to do it.
Regards,
Jim Sekely
Hello Jim;
I heard tht the gentleman is no longer an instructor.
Al
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