Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Where is High Frequncy Coming From?
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-19-2007 12:21
I read just about all the "high frequency" threads on this forum but can't find the information I'm looking for. Hoping for some direction or similar experience;
We do a lot of repair on large weldments and cast steel machinery parts - frames, valve bodies, shafts, etc. The processes necesarily require movement back and forth between weld shop and machine shop. Very often when a surface is repaired or builtup or hardfaced, the subsequent milling operations will open up an undeteced indication(s), porosity, crack, whatever. Then it is usually dismounted and sent back to the weld shop for repair, then back to the milling machines. This may happen in more than a few iterations before all is done!  It would be nice to be able to weld repair while mounted so as to avoid multiple set-ups and all the effort involved with moving large material back and forth between shops.

The machine shop won't let us weld in their area because they fear that the "high frequncy" will wash out the computer controls. Shutting down their computers during a weld repair doesn't seem to be a forgivable option.

I am puzzled as to where the "high frequency" would come from? A typical machine that we would use for such a repair might be a simple TIG welder like a Miller deltaweld. I realize most of our machines have a frequency feature for starting the arc, but other than the transformers in the power supply that convert 440v 60hz power to a DCEN arc, I cannot see where "high Frequency" comes from (to me 60hz isn't High).   The owner manuals don't give me any clue.

Does any one know about high frequency or how I might show there is no high frequency to worry about? Or other experience to overcome similar manufacturing traffic that I described.
Thankyou.
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 10-19-2007 14:31
Check the Miller Syncrowave or Dynasty owner's manual. They have very good directions in how to earth ground any hf. Driven earth grounding rod(s) to chassis of weld machine, the fixture and any structural building members that may radiate hf.
Parent - - By SWP (**) Date 10-19-2007 14:35
Simply do not use the high frequency arc starting freature on your welding power supply, use a scratch start.
Or purchase a small modern inverter power supply with the "lift arc" starting feature.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-19-2007 21:06
That a great solution to the issue of HF.

HF is not beneficial to computer boards unless they are shielded.

The HF acts like a radio transmitter and can be picked up by the circuitry of the computerboards.

I fried a couple of digital watches several years ago while working with GMAW with a pulse rate above 1200 Hz. That's nowhere near the high frequency used with GTAW.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-20-2007 09:42
SWP-
What about this inverter power supply? Do I install this inside the welding machine or externally? Where would I get this from?
Thanks
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-20-2007 03:46
There is a small transformer, a few capacitors and a set of "points", this is the equipment that generates the high frequency. It is a "spark gap ocilator". The HF is induced on the electrode cable with an air core transformer, and that is usually located close to the electrode terminal inside the machine enclosure. Th air core transformer is about the size of a small coffe can, and the spark gap ocilator components all fit on a board about the size of a postcard. The points and high voltage caps are usually acessable through an acess cover in the machine enclosure. Some newer machines have a lift/start feature that does not involve high frequency, and these can be used where HF interference can not be tolerated.
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-20-2007 09:55
That is a brilliant answer!
So you are saying that our DCEN arc really has an AC component to it all the time? (unless we have the arc start feature turned off).

But do you have a sense of what frequency this spark gap oscilator would typically be working at? 
Thankyou.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-20-2007 11:15
Tom  I could not tell you exactly what freq the arc start will be on DCEN but definitely on the majority of older machines it will be the same as the constant high freq but will last only say .5-1sec.    The problem here in lies with the amount of current flowing thru a given conductor with this high frequency superimposed over it.....more current equals more wattage therefore more transmission power available thru the open air to be captured by other conductors like circut boards in CNC equipment.   Most CNC equipment built after 1980 or so (please dont make me pull out NEC code) is rated for a certain amount of shielding capability on the controls.  Modern stuff is well shielded against interference.  The problem specifically occurs when there is a reasonable wattage (think power) radio freq transmitter is nearby.  The power (wattage) is high enough to induce emf (electro motive force) in anything conductive nearby.  This in turn can induct  current in said conductors and cause failures.  Most electronic circuts built on the principals of the transistor only require .7 volts or less to function.  A high wattage radio transmitter can easily induce more voltage than .5 volts in a nearby conductor.  Therefore high freq ....it can shut it off or do any function inadvertently that can occur by the push of button on its controls any other device which functions on a solid state circuitry built on the premiss's of less then a volt unless its properly shielded by modern technology.  

A great example of this is the cheap cd boombox attached to my toolbox...it works fine most of the time but when I am playing a cd sometimes when welding aluminum (only aluminum) it will shut completely off an arc start....it laks quality shielding   Well imagine having two or more hours into a program on a cnc and the welder strikes an arc and its GONE....That is a reality Tom Cooper....on newer machines I do not see it happening.......but anything pre 1985  you betcha.....and even on modern machines if the shop electrical supply is improperly setup...a good backfeed could cause the same result.  Look in the CNC cabinets do you see coaxial wire and aluminum strips on the cabinets.

Now as far as making shielding to prevent such I say look at the common coax cable built from space technology......a conductor inside a shield which is also part of the signal.    The reason that shield works is the woven strands...geometry....opposite directions but still connected....ok you see the idea...it has to do with magnetic poles and how radiation can can conduct itself.    If the shielding is aligned 90 degrees against (each other' itself":molecularly" then it will cancel itself out in propagation (wattage) from the source.  It works the same essentially with an induced signal ......the cross conductors eat away the influence of the signal power wise.  So in other words a ferrous conductor woven in the traditional basket weave method makes a powerful shield against any high freq or other radio signal now matter what the wattage for all intents and purposes.

So in summery I can say without question the fears of your machinists are grounded in hard scientific fact.....check to make sure their controls are safe before venturing into their space.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-20-2007 13:18
Good reply Tommyjoking.

Al
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-21-2007 10:23
Tommy-
That reply just leaves me speechless on several levels.  You are a well informed guy and I certainly appreciate the time you put into the explanation.  This and info from the other folks gives me a good background (and motivation!) to learn more and better understand something I ordinarily would not have cared about.

Thanks to all!!!
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-21-2007 05:29
I don't know what the frequency is, I guess it could be figured by a radio engineer, but this type of device generates a frequency over a pretty wide range due to it's nature. These devices fall under FCC jurisdiction.
As to the AC component, the voltage is rather high, but the amperage is very low, so the AC has nothing to do with the melting of the material, it just ionizes the shielding gas so it will conduct electricity and start/maintain the arc.
At the auto frame plant there was always a concern about welding causing unwanted power spikes in equipment, and nothing was to be welded while a crane was hooked to it. This was the rule and had nothing to do with HF. I don't know if the concern was warranted, but that was the rule, PERIOD.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-21-2007 06:20
Hello Dave, the part about not welding on anything with the crane hooked to it has a bit to do with the grounding of parts while welding. If for any reason the welding machine doesn't have a proper ground connection it may use the chassis grounds that are common to the crane and welding machine and then ground through the chain or cable system on the crane. This can compromise the lifting integrity of the crane or associated lifting accessories. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By mooseye (**) Date 10-22-2007 02:25
A former employer of mine had a crew wipe a whole room full of computers by forgetting to connect the ground clamp for a sixpack. Right or wrong wiring inside the machine used the plant power supply ground for the weld ground.
Needless to say the customer was not a happy concert goer.
I wouldn't take the chance even if it was very remote.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-22-2007 04:07
Since the subject of grounds and welding on cranes etc. was brought up.

Its good info to know that current is going to travel thru whatever is between your ground and your actual welding location...a lot of people forget this during the day to day grind.   Electricity does not care it is going to take the easiest path (path of least resistance) it can to make that connection back to your machine.   If the wires going to the computer in that trackhoe provide an easier path its going there first...yep it happened but it was not me thank goodness.     Always think about where your ground is in field work  ....don't ground on the tracks of a dozer and burn rods on the blade...all those bearings in between don't like it.  

Shop welders can find their own path too when the need to....case in point:  About three weeks ago my machine was down waiting on freq contacts.  So since another welder had stuff jigged up on his table I just stretched his leads over to my workspace to do the aluminum job I was working....I forgot to run a ground from his table to mine.....I got my welds done fine and when I was putting up the leads it hit me....I just grounded thru my machines ground thru the building power supply back to his machine.....nothing got damaged, I was lucky.

Just food for thought
Tommy
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-22-2007 04:37
The work lead is SUPPOSED to be electricly isolated from the machine housing, power cable neutral and power cable ground, at least at the machine. When work tables and fixturing are hooked to earth ground [as they often are intentionally or unintentionally] there is the posibility for stray current and power spikes. The concern at the frame plant had to do with the controll circutry on the variable speed cranes, but as Allen & Tommy point out arcing in unintentional places can compromise equipment. We had a series of rivet yoke failures caused by a poorly grounded fixture causing the workpiece to seek ground through the rivet yoke when the part was being welded. The arc impingement resulted in cracking of the heat treated yoke.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-22-2007 04:50
I figure that I ended up going back thru the neutral wire Dave...however there is a separate suspect earth ground running to my machine from a separate disconnect box that powers my dust vac.  Hmm maybe I need to take my meter to work and double check maintenances hook up.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-22-2007 05:27
Hello Dave, as I read your post it reminded me of a condition that is very prevalent in many of the mills and other manufacturing facilities in my area and likely in many other's too. A large share of "mill or manufacturing facility" maintenance welding machines use a ground that is connected to the facility's structure and then they use a long stinger lead to perform the work wherever it is needed, or possibly have several stinger leads going to different locations on the plant site from a common machine, this avoids having to run two lengths of welding cable(one for the stinger and one for the ground). Using the structure of the building for the ground is likely also making the machine ground common to the various power panels that are grounded to the framework of the building. Thus, you can certainly end up with current taking paths that you don't want it to. This is also likely why the use of jumper grounds is strongly recommended when this type of condition exists, although it still doesn't guarantee the correct current path will be taken.
     I believe this same scenario can be applied to structural steel erection and welding as many welding rigs will ground near to the machine through the structure and then run the stinger lead to wherever it is required to make the necessary welds. When I cover welding machine safety for my students I include a section on proper grounding and discuss the use of common grounding and some of it's drawbacks. One of the scenarios that I cover with the students follows somewhat the line that you discussed in your post about the arcing in the rivet yoke that you mentioned. The example that I give includes using the structure's ground and welding elsewhere in the building, possible arcing could occur due to a similar condition as you described, only in this case maybe the arcing is taking place in the chemical storage area of the building, this could possibly cause a fire to erupt without it being obvious to those working. This is highly unlikely, but the possibility still exist. Lots of hypotheticals, I know, so please forgive me. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-23-2007 04:26
Allan, I can see a lot of "down side" to using the structure instead of a ground cable close to the area being welded, but I don't doubt that it is done. At the frame plant the maintainance welding machines were portable if work needed to be done away from a welding area. They had a little Lincoln "WeldanPower" that they pulled around behind a Cushman scooter for areas without primary power. I don't really know how the ground was routed between the machines and welding fixtures for the production work, as I never serviced those areas.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Where is High Frequncy Coming From?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill