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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / SMAW Aluminum!?
- - By 1mancrew (**) Date 10-21-2007 18:34
What a miserable S.O.B that turned out to be!!! Litteraly nothing I did worked worth a damn. I tried pre-heating (400 degrees+/-) cleaning with a wire brush, reversing polarity, you name it. I just couldn't control the puddle no matter what I did. The center kept falling out on me and leaving big holes.

This was on a big 18-wheeler dump-box trailer so a freind of mine told me that it was likely annodized and therefore would be extremely difficult to weld?! No S#*%!!!!

Had to turn the job down and walk away but for the sake of my own education can anyone tell me what I could have done wrong. By the way, TIG was not an option and I don't own a spool gun.

Thanks
GH Weidman
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-21-2007 19:00
Hello 1mancrew, I would simply say that even under the best of conditions SMAW on aluminum is a son of a gun. The second thing that you were likely fighting here is the fact that this was a trailer for an 18 wheeler. It has had plenty of time to pick-up any number of nasty surface contaminants to play heck with welding it. Any time that you have cracks, connection points that involve the lapping of two surfaces or spots where dirt and other contaminants can be trapped, they will make the welding of these very difficult. Whenever possible in these situations, grind, chemically clean, or otherwise clean out the crack or junction point. If using chemicals for cleaning, only use non-residual cleaners(acetone is a good general choice), but never weld on the part until the residual chemicals are completely gone. I don't actually believe that it is anodized, however if it was you would definitely want to remove this surface condition before attempting to weld on it. I myself have been at the welding game for a number of years and have played around with the SMAW process on aluminum stick and have actually used it in industry once. I didn't have any impressive results then either. It simply isn't the same as GMAW or GTAW aluminum and you can't expect to see similar results. If you anticipate having future opportunities to work on aluminum trailers you may want to invest in the necessary equipment to perform GMAW. There are some of the gas drives that will accept spoolguns directly while others may require a control box to be used in conjunction with the spoolgun. You can either purchase these set-ups new or possibly used through a rental yard, craigslist, or ebay. I have made the assumption that you are using an engine driven welder of some sort and that's what I have based my reply on. Also, don't forget that no matter what sort of welding process you are attempting to use, you will need to pay special attention to the preparation of the material and keeping it as clean as absolutely possible. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By 1mancrew (**) Date 10-21-2007 19:30
Aevald,

Thanks much for the input! Yes, I was in fact using my Miller Pro 300(I am A rig welder in the front range Colorado area.) I would have loved to TIG it but my TIG machine is in a small shop and this job would not have fit! I could by a spool gun but it likely would have cost more than the job was worth. Besides I have never been a big fan of spool-guns or MIG in general because of the lack of operator control. Live and learn I guess. I'm just still a little frustrated. The longer I'm in this business the fewer jobs I encounter that can completely stump me this way.

As Clint Eastwood said, "A mans got to know his limitations!"

GH Weidman
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-21-2007 20:54
I remember using SMAW on aluminum the first time (there wasn't a second time).

It worked, it wasn't pretty, but some twenty years later the "bubble gum" is still holding.

The electrode was consumed in about 30 seconds and the fumes irritated the hell out of my nose.

When left on the work bench over night, the flux "melted" off the rod and corroded my work bench.

The lesson is, all but for the crudist of work, you need the right equipment for aluminum! GTAW and GMAW (spray) are the way to go.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-24-2007 19:13
I had the same results here. I don't know what kind of rod it was, though. Too bad, because that would make something nice to have in an emergency!

One thing I might point out: The aluminum could have been getting too hot. I'd recommend only welding about an inch or two at a time with an arc welder, then let the piece cool down.

Yes, and it needs to be clean! Aluminum is picky that way.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-21-2007 21:15
Hello again 1mancrew, I just wanted to add a few more items of information for your future consideration. There is a possibility that you can lease or rent a spoolgun unit if you are faced with another opportunity for work on aluminum, having said that it wouldn't be a bad call to see about getting some training on GMAW aluminum. Check on some classes at your local community/technical college or skills center. They can likely help you to understand the process and application a bit better and not leave you stumped. Alcoa Aluminum, a number of years ago, published and distributed some books that described in detail many of the considerations for welding aluminum, it's a great publication with a wealth of information. I believe this was simply titled, "Welding Alcoa Aluminum" or something pretty close to that. The main reason for my suggestion for the training or reading has to do with the many idiosyncrasies that can come with welding aluminum, there are many different grades of this material, not all are weldable, some can be heat treated and require special attention when welding. A person needs to determine the material composition, choose the correct filler material, and use the correct welding procedure when welding aluminum. Some aluminum will loose much of it's strength when excessive preheat is used during the welding process, some welding processes are better suited for welding specific items due to this condition. Educate yourself and then you will feel better equipped to take on this type of work if it comes your way in the future. Best regards, aevald
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-22-2007 04:07
My experiences stick welding aluminum weren't great either, I got a functional but crappy looking weld, fortunatly the parts were pretty thick, I think that may have helped. I use a spool gun for most of My aluminum work, particularly for truck bed repair and other reasonably thick material. Some schooling on the subject probably would have helped, but I managed to get enough info by reading to get started. While I am far from expert with this process, I can say that it is fairly easy to get usable results, and the MIG process seems to tolerate a little dirt that You can't remove better than TIG.
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-22-2007 16:54
I was stationed aboard a minesweeper in the last months of my Navy career, and most everything there is either stainless or aluminum.  No high-freq allowed, and didn't have room for a decent wire feed machine.  So I had these SMAW sticks, can't remember the manufacturer or class; 3/32"x16", the flux was rough and white.  I have had to weld handles onto doors and hatches; this is 1/2" 6061 round bar onto 3/16" 6061 sheet.  After some practice, I was able to make fillets resembling some of my earlier work with E6011 on carbon steel.  That is to say, it wasn't pretty but it was passable.  Allan is dead on when he says you have to get your base metal clean.  And when it's clean, clean it again. 
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-23-2007 16:40
"The very best stick rod for aluminum isn't worth a tinkers...."

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!  Dang, I love this forum!
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 11-16-2007 00:08
i know in gmaw there is a huge defrence between dragging and pushing would that be the same in stick.
Parent - By crenshawjm (*) Date 11-16-2007 00:40
understand your grief, played around with this about a week ago, i used a SS brush like they taught us in TIG class. and fired up the Hobart Champ, set the current to 90 amps, decided real quick to turn that down some. but all in all it wasn't that bad, but i think the better deal for my attempt would have been preheat, since the heat transfer of aluminum is so high. and the last post speaking of push instead of drag, i wil try that, might help.... the weard part was you take a 14" rod and get to weld 2" and you need another rod.... not the same with 7018. i thought if i had to weld anything other than playing around trying to teach myself, this would get expensive. so i agree a TIG or MIG Plugged into the Champ. would be ther best bet.

Mike
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 11-16-2007 16:11
Use a carbide burr with a pencil/die grinder and hog out a clean groove/surface for the weld to fuse to.
Miller makes the Spoolmatic 15/30A spoolgun and when connected to the  WC-115A Control it provides a volt sensing wire feeder which works with any dc stick welding machine. It won't do short circuit from a stick machine but it will do a very nice job with spray transfer. This is the preferred transfer for aluminum.
Remember amperage is controlled from a stick machines output control and the voltage is controlled by arc length. Therefore with the volt sensing wire feeder; the voltage is controlled with the wire feed speed. Increase wire feed speed and the arc length decreases, the resistance decreases and the voltage is also decreased. Amperage is penetration and the bead profile - the height & width is controlled by the voltage.
Set the amperage for material's thickness and penetration; once set, leave it alone. Then set the voltage for the bead profile. High & Ropey Beads requires an increase in the voltage by decreasing the wire feed speed. Fine tune the arc with voltage not amperage.
This extra equipment may be pricey but if the job can't be done it gets real pricey. The customers find shops or rigs which can do every or at least more/varied projects. 
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-16-2007 20:49
i met a bodyman from the Philippines that welded race care bodies together out of aluminum with a carburized oxy acetylene flame. they were amazing and from the pics looked like the real deal. i however would not even begin to know what he did besides he told me he went slow and pounded all the metal out by hand.
darren
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-16-2007 20:49
i met a bodyman from the Philippines that welded race care bodies together from scratch  out of aluminum with a carburized oxy acetylene flame. they were amazing and from the pics looked like the real deal. i however would not even begin to know what he did besides he told me he went slow and pounded all the metal out by hand.
darren
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-17-2007 06:05
I understand there are some guys who prefer that method even today for making custom motorcycle gas tanks. I understand that it is pretty trickey to learn.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / SMAW Aluminum!?

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