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- - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-27-2007 10:41
Lots of Hollywood input in recent years....kind of an esoteric question.

Not to input wikpedia or other encyclopedia.  I will give my definition and ask for criticism or comment.

Patriot:  One who is willing to sacrifice his very life for his countries/homelands beliefs or principals.

That is a strong word in these political times (and others)...what do yall think?

look forward to reply by all and those I highly respect

Tommy
Parent - By yorkiepap (***) Date 10-27-2007 12:46
Hey Tommy,
You are correct in your summation of the word "Patriot", although meaning and interpretation differ in the minds of each age genre. My genre grew in the world of hard work, honor & respect, many having parents from the "old world", and never had a reluctance to defend this beautiful country. We never had a problem to kill or die for our flag because of out strong beliefs in the Constitution and the men who had the insight to create it. Whether you want to believe it or not, war is business....BIG BUSINESS!!! My father once spoke of the grim outlook forthcoming in our country and though he would not be here to see it, I would. There is a silent, deafening awakening that is going to happen when the forces who plan to destroy our way of life reek havoc on our cities and population. Those silent "patriots", millions of them, will awaken and bring this country back to the days of sanity......it's coming.......Denny
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-27-2007 16:38
It's a good question.

I keep the old 1935 websters on the shelf just to comapre old terms to current ones.  In the case of the word "Patriot" the definition is pretty much the same now as it was 70 years ago.

"one who loves, and is devoted to his native counry and its welfare".

The difference now as I see it is the promonence of relativisim in secular socitey.

With the jettisoning of absolutes, anybody who feels strongly about what they are doing is a patriot.

Since we now lack any standard for right and wrong, meaning "everybody has their own truth"  which in my opinion is the down side of pluralisim.  I don't mind that there are many views, but I do object when I am pressured to consede that each opinion has an equal relative value or "rightness".  A very unpopular paradigm on a college campus let me assure you.

Everybody at every extreme politically and morally believe themselves to be patriots.

Pro 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-28-2007 03:47
Lawrence: And of that "Everybody", all that believe in the Lord also believe they are doing His will, and that He is on their side. Where does this leave us?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-28-2007 05:24
Dave.

It leaves us in a dirty fallen old world.

Not sure how much further to go on this one since we are in a welding forum and have moved away even from the original topic of patriotisim and into theology. But I'll offer a you a few words anyhow  :)

John 14:21  Is a quote from the Lord himself that I take to be encouraging.

Beyond that each of us must examine our own motivations. Are we truly trying to glorify God in the things we are doing.  I really think very few national leaders ask themselves that question before enacting or opposing policy.

Mat 7:18

I'm also not so sure all that many folks "believe they are doing His will"  although they may say it.

In the end it is always the Lord who judges our hearts and motiviations. 

As for me personally;  The Lord is on my side because he delivered and saved me (by no merit of my own)......

How I vote and any political decisions I've made?  I wouldn't doubt I've grieved him on that account.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-29-2007 03:55
Lawrence: I too believe that We should not dig too deeply into theology, philosophy or politics on this website, as it genrally leads to contraversy. In as much as this is the off topic section We don't need the hurt feelings that will surely result.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 04:02
No offense Dave, but there are to many people out there swimming in political correctness as it is. There was not a country born without controversy. Sometimes a little hurt feelings are a good thing if it makes someone think.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-28-2007 19:46
the tag line is highlarious, I gotta ask, why a coconut?
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 10-28-2007 20:27
didnt gilligans island have a coconut radio?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-28-2007 20:13 Edited 10-29-2007 03:59
As for your question:

Patriotism to me is believing in the root principals of the specific countries origins. In America, those root principals have been defined by the founding fathers.

That applies to all countries. Especially in this day and age, when you can pick up and go to another country if you don't like the one your in. I have more respect for someone who lives by their beliefs, than stands around bitching about it endlessly.
I would say your question begs the definition of traitor. The antithesis of Patriot.

When people hear the words treason/traitor they think in terms of some guy who stole nuclear secrets, or some guy in Washington selling the floor plan to the white house.
To me a traitor is also someone who deliberately creates confusion, and or actively tries to redefine the root principals of their country.
The act of changing or attempting to change those root principles at cost to the nations people is in contrast to upholding those ideas at all cost.
By that definition many in washington for the later half of the last century, and in the beginning of this one have bee acting in a treasonous manner.
The sleeping troll in that is the supreme court. They are supposed to be the third branch of government, but many of their decisions have been against the ideals of the founding fathers. Does this make them traitors? you decide.

People who develop short memories and the desire for instant satisfaction are a people that sell their children into slavery down the road. It may not be in the form of chains, but being locked into a situation without the ability or right to get out of it, that to me is not living free, and if your not living free, then your a prisoner, and as a prisoner, if your required to work to support the group that emprisoned you, then you are a slave.

It's sheik and "in" to bash the country now. Least someone make this a Democrat or Republican issue, anyone who has two brain cells to rub together can see all the talk about raising money in a political campaign as proof positive that we no longer have representation in washington. It's not about who will watch over our interest, it's about who puts on the best dog and pony show and the media across the board is playing a key role in it. In my opinion, all three branches need to be cleaned out and started new, and the democratic and republican parties need to be disbanded. They only have their interest and the people who pay them at heart anyway.

Look around you and at yourselves, and ask the question, am i a patriot? are they? and think about what it means to not be a patriot.
I may piss people off now and then, but I'll practice free speech until someone tries to jail me for it, and then it will be something else entirely.
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 10-29-2007 00:30
CWI555, You have raised alot of question that I find myself asking all the time. Noumber one being are we truly living in a free society, and has the sacrifice of our forefathers been in vain when all politics seem to do is fuel big business. I am not an American but as a Canadian we need to address some of the same issue. I worry that things we take for granted are so esily lost such as free speech and the right to an elected goverment not backed by big business. Not that everyone should not have the oppertunity to grap their slice of the pie so to speak.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-29-2007 02:05 Edited 10-29-2007 02:11
Isn't a patriot a person or a business that flies a really humongous American Flag!  Is it a Union Member that will vote for every unrepentant communist rather than vote for a republican?  Isn't a Patriot a person who goes to the Memorial Day parade, if the weather is good?  Isn't a patriot the CEO of a large defense contractor that buiilds a state of the art Fighter Jet for the USA with generous taxpayer  money, and then lobbies congress to allow them to sell it overseas?  Is a student with a government student loan that ran away to canada during the Viet Nam War, then used the bankruptcy law to avoid repayment of the loan a patriot?  Isn't Jimmy Carter, who's first official act in office was to pardon those draft dodgers, a patriot?  Are the prison guards at Abu Garaib prision that embarrassed me and this country considered patriots.  Wasn't Rusty Calley a Patriot?  I have two Purple Hearts, but I am not a patriot.

Now, I believe I have said enough to piss everyone off!
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 03:59
That is what free speech is about. It doesn't piss me off. It makes me glad there are people out their who haven't been castrated by political correctness.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 04:43
Hi Joe ;)

You may piss some people off here with some of the opinions you hold dearly to yourself, and I personally respect you for that.

A Patriot knows what is the difference between right and wrong, who's doing it and, has enough integrity in themselves to speak out, or stop the treason outright!!! Which means that there have'nt been too many around stopping the treason outright including myself - although I have spoken out publicly more than once on many issues where sometimes it becomes a patriot's duty that's required in order to keep both sides from ripping each other's head's off :(

I do miss watching "Archie Bunker" with my dad years ago when just about every other social issue was being covered, and believe me - I still did not know what the true meaning of what it was to be a patriot then nor do I do now. The difference between then and now is: Today I believe and embrace the Constitution of these United States as they were written so, I must as Patriot protect it from both foreign and domestic attacks!!!! if our Bill of Rights are being also attacked, I've got just a few words for anyone attempting to nullify some of them especially with out my consent..... 
NUTS TO YOU & GET READY FOR YOUR ANNIHILATION!!!
Come to think of it, I really like the State of New Hampshire's own motto: "LIVE FREE OR DIE !!!"

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 04:53
Key words, foreign and domestic.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 04:50
BTW, the examples you gave are not what I would call patriotic, The opposite of them is, which would make you a patriot.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 05:02 Edited 10-29-2007 05:07
Well, then I've got to ask you the question: who the F or what makes you think that you are able to question my own patriotism? Because if you're going to act as an arbiter to me or anyone else, you better get some more experience under your belt young man before you start acting like some sort of poor excuse for a judge!!! In fact, Take the examples I gave you and shove them up where the sun do'nt SHINE!!!

                             YOU FEEL ME?????
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 16:24
Henry I am not sure where that came from. The post that you answered to came from examples given by Mr. Cane. Neither of your patriotism's was ever questioned by me.
I would ask that you be sure of what your replying to before you jump in someone's A**.

BTW Mr. Cane shows himself to be a patriot by the nature of his post.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-29-2007 18:34 Edited 10-29-2007 18:41
To Stir the pot once more.
 
I am not a patriot.  I was adjutant in my American Legion Post for 16 years when this nation elected Bill Clinton.  Bill was a draft dodger.  Bill went to the Soviet Union as their GUEST, when he was in college and avoiding service to his country!  The Soviet Union was not in  the habit of paying for things until they got something first.  I wonder what Bill gave them? 

Before he was elected, I swore that I would never salute the flag of the USA (Stars and Stripes) while he was in office,   I swore that I would never again honor the flag, if the US re-elected him.   If Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are an example of how the people of the US think, then I was a sucker to risk life and limb for eight years in the Army.  The pay wasn't that great and my deferred pay (Lifetime free VA hospital care) was suddenly subjerct to the whim of crooked congressmen and senators.  I look back at the days when I thought I was a patriot, and a tear came to my eye when the national anthem was played, and then, I apologize to God for that form of idolatry!

I am not a patriot. 

I no longer owe allegiance to what I used to call the "flag of the United States".  That flag was hijacked by; Draft Dodgers, Unrepentant Communists, commercial opportunists, Hyphenated Americans, "Summertime Soldiers and Sunshine Patriots".   The flag that I once pledged allegience to, has been sullied beyond redemption.   To me one of the most disgusting things I used to hear was a Politician or a crook wrapping himself in the flag. 

Crooked politicians used to get up and make speaches how we had to bring the MIAs & POWs home.  They were the words spoken "loud and proud" just to get the veterans vote!  Yet they knew full well, that it was just free political sloganism that could would never come back and hurt him politically.  This also is a form of patriotism and wrapping onself in the flag. 

Now, I think the people of the US deserve it.  My motto now is; "ELECT CHARLES MANSON FOR; ...PRESIDENT  OR  SENATOR, ... OR CONGRESSMAN, OR DOG CATCHER OR WHATEVER.  He is more than you deserve!  (And despite what you may think, he never killed anyone.) 

HOWEVER, I still well up with a tear or two at the playing of TAPS.  I still refuse to admit that I cried at the "BLACK GASH IN THE GROUND" at the National Mall in DC. 

So, everyone else can believe what they want, call themselves what they want, well with pride and / or cry when they want, (except where prohibited by law. Or the Patriot Act)
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 19:36
Well Joe, Whatever you are, you have my respect.
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 10-30-2007 15:33
Joseph, From the outside looking in My hats off to you, anyone who has earned two purple hearts has at the very least earned the right to voice their opinion pro or con and piss off as many people as you like. Whether you are a patriot or not is entirely up to you. From north of the border - Thank you for your contribution. Should I be so bold I'm sure your brothers in arms do not feel that your contribution was not in vain.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 04:31
Canadian, American, Mexican, the entire continent. We all have the same issues at the core. The entire continent was taken over by European interest, from which we developed countries. Between the collective historical roots in the North American continent, and why we separated from the French, the English, and the Spaniards, you would think the we would all learn our lessons. Unfortunately, a history forgotten is a history doomed to repeat itself.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-29-2007 09:05
Oh my!    LOL I always use an outboard...screw the boat paddle when I am gonna stir the pot.

Gerald your thought process and perceptions confirm a lot I already suspected...and that is definitely not a bad thing sir!!!!!   Mr. Kane you have showed some impressive commentary yourself.   Lawrence is viewing things in the harsh light of the truth...and I expect no less of him....but never the less most pertinant and thought provoking... at least to me.  I like hearing everyone but those fellows stuck their neck out for all to whack at. This question brought much out in the open and that was the entire intention (I hope it continues).....Dave I agree with you politics, religion and money always bring forth the deepest set and strongest opinions and that was the point....if we are not men enough to speak our minds amongst our friends (on an internet forum for gosh sakes) without fear of turmoil, harsh feelings and retribution then how shall we have the courage to change the wrongs of the world as we as individuals see it?

Gerald to answer you directly....someone insulted my brain matter capability on this forum recently so I felt compelled to form a tag line built upon the premises of the smartest guy I ever seen....the proffessor from Gilligans Island....ctacker was very shrewed in recognizing the reference.

Best Regards to all
Tommy
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 10-29-2007 16:31
Tommy,

The professor wasn't all that smart.  He fed, clothed and housed everybody using nothing more than beach sand and palm leaves, but he couldn't fix a three inch hole in the boat.
Parent - - By norcalwelder (**) Date 10-29-2007 23:09
Well guys, I just had to jump in here...The flag of the USA still means to me, no matter what political uses it has been subjected to, an idea or belief that no nation or person can destroy, a belief that is worth dieing for. The flag doen't represent Washington D.C. or George Bush. I believe that it represents freedom and safety and liberty for those of us who believe in the flag. So....my .02 cents worth.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 23:38
An ideal and belief I can understand, but the nation can and is being destroyed from within. We don't need al queda, or any other group, all we need is CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX, coupled with greed ridden corporations and the ACLU. Those freedoms and liberties have been and are being stripped from us as we speak.
Parent - By drifter57 (**) Date 10-30-2007 17:40
Tim, it is nice to see there are some people out there that still respect and honor our flag.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2007 23:34
Good point, but then again, maybe it was by design.
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 10-30-2007 19:24
What makes you think he wanted to fix the boat? Maybe he liked things the way they were. Outside influences were practically nil.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-31-2007 00:52
Here is another contemporary definition of Patriotism.  Author unknown

President Bush did make a bad mistake in the war on terrorism. But the mistake was not his decision to go to war in Iraq .  Bush's mistake came in his belief that this country is the same one his father fought for in WWII.  It is not.
Back then, they had just come out of a vicious depression.  The country was steeled by the hardship of that depression, but they still believed fervently in this country.  They knew that the people had elected their leaders, so it was the people's duty to back those leaders.
Therefore, when the war broke out the people came together, rallied behind, and stuck with their leaders, whether they had voted for them or not or whether the war was going badly or not.
And war was just as distasteful and the anguish just as great then as it is today.  Often there were more casualties in one day in WWII than we have had in the entire Iraq war.  But that did not matter.  The people stuck with the President because it was their patriotic duty.  Americans put aside their differences in WWII and worked together to win that war.
Everyone from every strata of society, from young to old pitched in.  Small children pulled little wagons around to gather scrap metal for the war effort.  Grade school students saved their pennies to buy stamps for war bonds to help the effort.
Men who were too old or medically 4F lied about their age or condition trying their best to join the military.  Women doubled their work to keep things going at home. Harsh rationing of everything from gasoline to soap, to butter was imposed, yet there was very little complaining.
You never heard prominent people on the radio belittling the President.  Interestingly enough in those days there were no fat cat actors and entertainers who ran off to visit and fawn over dictators of hostile countries and complain to them about our President.  Instead, they made upbeat films and entertained our troops to help the troops' morale.  And a bunch even enlisted.
And imagine this: Teachers in schools actually started the day off with a Pledge of Allegiance, and with prayers for our country and our troops!
Back then, no newspaper would have dared point out certain weak spots in our cities where bombs could be set off to cause the maximum damage.  No newspaper would have dared complain about what we were doing to catch spies.
A newspaper would have been laughed out of existence if it had complained that German or Japanese soldiers were being 'tortured' by being forced to wear women's underwear, or subjected to interrogation by a woman, or being scared by a dog or did not have air conditioning.
There were a lot of things different back then.  We were not subjected to a constant bombardment of pornography, perversion and promiscuity in movies or on radio.  We did not have legions of crackheads, dope pushers and armed gangs roaming our streets.
No, President Bush did not make a mistake in his handling of terrorism.  He made the mistake of believing that we still had the courage and fortitude of our fathers.  He believed that this was still the country that our fathers fought so dearly to preserve.
It is not the same country.  It is now a cross between Sodom and Gomorrah and the land of Oz. We did unite for a short while after 9/11, but our attitude changed when we found out that defending our country would require some sacrifices.
We are in great danger.  The terrorists are fanatic Muslims.  They believe that it is okay, even their duty, to kill anyone who will not convert to Islam.  It has been estimated that about one third or over three hundred million Muslims are sympathetic to the terrorists' cause...Hitler and Tojo combined did not have nearly that many potential recruits.
So...we either win it - or lose it - and you ain't gonna like losing.
America is not at war.  The military is at war.    America is at the mall.

Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 10-31-2007 01:15
Amen, and what are the people of this country gonna say when Iran or some other rogue nation hits NYC or LA with a nuke? that it was not worth sacrificing 5-10k american soldiers
who join the services knowing they could be in harms way for the 50-100k innocent people a bomb could destroy?
I am sorry to say, but even then, there will be those who would rather bow down than sacrifice anything!
Parent - - By PlanB (*) Date 10-31-2007 01:27
Well said Mr. Kane,. Thanks.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 02:24
Well said indeed.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-31-2007 03:06
More things for a Patriot to cheer about.
Quick Quiz



A little history lesson.  If you don't know the answer make your best guess.

Answer all the questions before looking at the answers.

Who said it?

1) "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

A.  Karl Marx
B.  Adolph Hitler
C.  Joseph Stalin
D.  None of the above

2) "It's time for a new beginning, for an end to government of the few,  by the
few, and for the few...... And to replace it with shared responsibility  for shared prosperity."

A.  Lenin
B.  Mussolini
C.  Idi Amin
D.  None of the Above

3) "(We) ...can't just let business as usual go on, and that means  something
has to be taken away from some people."

A.  Nikita Khrushev
B.  Josef Goebbels
C.  Boris Yeltsin
D.  None of the above

4) "We have to build a political consensus and that requires people to&n bsp; give up
a little bit of their own .... in order to create this common ground."

A.  Mao Tse Dung
B.  Hugo Chavez
C.  Kim Jong Il
D.  None of the above

5) "I certainly think the free-market has failed."

A.  Karl Marx
B.   Lenin
C.  Molotov
D.  None of the above

6) "I think it's time to send a clear message to what has become the most
profitable sector in (the) entire economy that they are being watched."

A.  Pinochet
B.  Milosevic
C.  Saddam Hussein
D.  None of the above

Scroll down for answers

(you know where this is going...)























Answers

(1) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  6/29/2004
(2) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  5/29/2007
(3) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  6/4/2007
(4) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  6/4/2007
(5) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  6/4/2007
(6) D.  None of the above.  Statement was made by Hillary Clinton  9/2/2005

Be afraid, Be very afraid!!
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-31-2007 08:05
BRAVO!!!!!!!  Joe BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 16:14
Way to go JOE!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 11-02-2007 21:00
i thought you might like this picture
Attachment: Hillary15.jpg (0B)
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-02-2007 21:12
The only thing she's lacking is that cute little mustache. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-31-2007 04:21
Hello Joe, I can appreciate the perception and direction of your posts on this topic. My parents immigrated to the U.S. from Denmark in 1957, as a young boy they told me stories of the Nazi invasion and occupation of their country. At that time I had no real appreciation of these stories, their meaning, or impact, until I was much older. Even today as an adult I know that I have no real solid grasp of the climate of those times and how it would have felt to have been in their shoes or experienced the feelings and memories of what took place and the life-long impression that it left on them as well as others who were in similar situations.
     My mom was 14 and my dad 12 when their country was occupied, some of what should have been their most enjoyable years as teenagers were shattered by Hitler and his aspirations for world domination. When my children hear some of these stories from their grandparents they often ask me why grandpa gets so wound up, I have to try to impress upon them the importance of having an understanding of his emotions. They do understand, but like me, they really can't fully appreciate the situation not having lived it. The average American has no true appreciation for the gifts that we have or the sacrifices that have provided them. We go through the mechanics of understanding, yet we are afforded an insulation from the realities of most of the impact of the world's issues. Those who have lost loved ones and family members to war, battle, terrorism, and other things, it is real to them.
     Being an armchair quarterback is always easy and hindsight is always 20/20. I only hope that our future as a nation holds a return to some of the core values that put us where we are in the first place. I thoroughly appreciate everyone's thoughts and views, agree or not. I can only appreciate another's wisdom when I have experienced their opinion. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 10-31-2007 20:41
Allan, your point is extremely keen and applies to issues other than Patriotism.

Unfortunately all the words in the world can't make a blind person see but it can (if they chose to listen) forewarn them of impending disasters. Sadly though, very few chose to listen.

Along the same lines as the title of this very educational string many other things are being left beside the roadway. We have discussed most of them at one time or another on this forum like being a proud American, taking Pride in your work to be the best or helping a stranger in need.

I feel all these things are synonymous with Patriotism but I doubt it's really true. The working man today is so caught up in trying to keep up it's tough to find time to look around to see where we are headed and the old expression that "Someone told me to cheer up things could be worse and so I cheered up and sure enough things got worse" comes to mind.

The media paints a very dark picture of any one who even thinks about standing up for his rights or doing things for his country that fore fathers did we were taught to praise them for there deeds and strength of character.

But woe be it you should you attempt to imitate them.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-01-2007 02:37
"I can only appreciate another's wisdom when I have experienced their opinion"
A very good observation.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 16:17
Beautiful!!!
I want to read more please!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-31-2007 20:01 Edited 10-31-2007 20:06
More thoughts for patriotism.

This is an interesting theory. The sad thing is, you can see it coming.

How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at
the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters
discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the
public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that
every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which
is always followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage'

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000
Presidential election:

Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: 'In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won
was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country.
Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in
government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare...'

(I wonder if the good professor would think all those government grants to professors, so they can get a salary and get their names in print, counts as welfare for the elitist snobs?)


Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between
the 'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already
having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal
invaders called illegal and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the
USA in fewer than five years.

If you are in favor of this then delete this message if you are not
then Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at
stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 22:11
That is interesting. Do you happen to have some links on the source for further study?
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-31-2007 22:32
No. I  do not know the sources. It is just something that got sent to me recently.

The Statistical values have a source, but simple analysis of several of the individual statistics as stated, can be interpreted as creating the statement to fit the numbers.  Besides do you really think anyone could be persuaded to change their mind on the Bush / Gore subject, even if they had unassailable facts handed to them by someone with holes in his feet walking across the water to give it to them?
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-01-2007 02:28
No, didn't expect anyone to change their minds. But your post stated some things I did not know. For things like that I prefer to know the sources and have checked them out myself before I quote it to someone else.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-01-2007 04:40
When I send stuff like that to friends who are on the other side of the political fence they claim the numbers are made up by "a bunch of nuts on the extreme right wing" They see themselves as in the middle, not on the left.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-01-2007 03:25
Ok   Joe before we start reaching deep.....notice you did not include the Roman Empire,  What was developed by Temijin (Ghenghis Kahn), or anything hinting at what the far east China or Japan developed as societies go.....ALL far Exceed a 200 year life span.   I do not think we are done by any means.....however I do believe we are at the critical point of changing course as far as the U.S. goes.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-03-2007 04:31
But were those democracies?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-03-2007 07:07
No Dave but I went off of Joe's qoute

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

But if we are going all inclusive and give comparisons to the rise and demise of empires and look for clues of the social state preceding the latter....we will definitely be including little in the way of democracies. Democratic governments preceding the middle ages are definitely the exception and not the norm.  Unless you wish to include a few very small isolated societies thru history.  We also have the wild card of a smaller world thru technology to contend with that complicates the issue greatly....whats ironic to me is it could be our greatest tool for establishing TRUE democracy ...but at present we are failing to make good use of it.

Best Regards
Tommy
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