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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / A36 Steels, ER4130 Wire and GTAW
- - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-29-2007 18:13
Okay folks, here's a theoretical for you:

Most of what we weld with here is A36 steel.  Theoretically, should we be able to weld this material with ER4130 (no  preheat or PWHT required per print)? 

For you who know more about metallurgy: The normal range of carbon content in A36 plate is .25-.29%.  The MTRs I have here, running back for several years, vary from .11-.17%.  Is this normal?  Am I missing something?
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 10-29-2007 18:29
I'm interested to know what the application is that you are needing a 4130 filler for A36 steel is. 
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 10-29-2007 20:31
I didn't know there was such a thing as ER4130!  (What AWS/SFA spec does that one fall into?)
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-29-2007 21:11
AISI.  Also known as 4130VM (vac melt).  If the process spec allowed me to, I would use ER80SD-2, which is AWS 5.28. 
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-29-2007 21:10
The filler is being dictated by the specification and backed to the hilt by the process engineer.  The item is a channel dolly frame.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-31-2007 03:15
What reason does the process engineer give for the filler selection? That filler is chrome-molly isn't it?
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-31-2007 13:02
His line of reasoning is based on carbon content.  He figures if 4130 has a nominal carbon content of .29%, then A36 (with .25-.29%) should be weldable with the filler.  This is why I asked about the "normal" carbon content of A36.  As stated in the spec, it should be .25-.29, however most of my stock on hand is .11-.17.  Let me tell you, we tried it out with the same process we would use to weld the frame and not only did the root crack, but the coupons failed bending as well.  Yes, 4130 is chrome-moly. 
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 13:54
The carbon content of A36 is dependent on the thickness of the material. Thinner materials require less alloy addition than thick sections due to the increased mechanical work, i.e., rolling, required to produce thinner materials.

The tensile strength of steels is a function of the alloy composition and the manufacturing process. The manufacturer has to meet certain targets included in the material specification. There are different means of hitting those targets. A typical ASTM specification will list the mechanical properties and the ranges of chemistry. The manufacturer has the latitude of rolling the steel at different temperatures, passing the material through the rolls "x" number of times, and balancing the chemistry to produce the desired mechanical properties.

The latitude given the manufacturer for ASTM A36 is greater than for a material such as ASTM A992, which includes not only the required mechanical properties, but also the required carbon equivalency as a means placing greater control on the manufacturing process and ensuring good weldability.

The engineer that only considers the carbon content doesn't understand metallurgy. Like CWIs, doctors, and welders, not all engineers graduated in the top 10% of their class. I still remember the story my father told me about an engineer that got tired of waiting for an operator and decided he could drive a bulldozer down a flight of stairs. Another story for another day. Another consideration; not all engineers have a good background in materials science. Engineering encompasses many areas of specialization; there are mechanical engineers, welding engineers, chemical engineers, electrical engineers, ceramic engineers, aerospace engineers, highway engineers, I think you see my drift, all may include the job responsibility of designing welds. Like some welders, they may be hesitant to admit there is something they don't know and they may believe their position is in jeopardy if they seek outside advice. Silly welder, silly engineer.

In your case, there is no advantage that I see in using a filler metal that over matches the mechanical properties of the base metal. A filler metal with a tensile strength of 60 ksi or even 70 ksi should be adequate for the application that involves ASTM A36 base metal. The 4130 contains carbon, molybdenum and chrome in sufficient quantities that the deposit can be very hard, very strong, and, yes, very brittle if the cooling rate isn't controlled. If your engineer used the carbon equivalency formula found in AWS D1.1 Annex XI, he would discover the Ceq would be very high indicating potential problems with weldability.  

Good luck - Al
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 10-31-2007 13:59
Well, your man needs to research how things are to be welded and why.  Depending on the application you don't just go and say use 4130 on A36 because it allmost has the same carbon content.  There are other goodies in that filler that might not be good with the other goodies in the A36.   In raceing they don't even use 4130 chrome-moly filler on chrome-moly tube chassis becuase it's to rigid and has no ductility. 
   So what are you going to do about this little problem you have at work or can you do anything?
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-31-2007 16:53
Thank you, gentlemen.  Al - thanks for the primer in steel info.  Good stuff.

What am I going to do?  Good question.  Since I am welding to a specification which was authored by the WE in question, I may have no choice but to perform extensive stress relief on site.  I would prefer not to, since we'll have a hard time controlling the temperature drop.  I have asked him for some examples of parameters I might use, some guidelines, but he doesn't know or won't say.  I'm basically going to attack it like  problem report from the shop floor.  First I have to qualify a WPS; that should start the ball rolling nicely.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-31-2007 21:51
You can use a high preheat, 500 degrees F, with an extended cooling time by insulating the parts while welding and wrapping them as soon as welding is completed. You can use AWS D1.1 PWHT requirements as a starting point, however, I would not remove the weldment from the furnace until it cools below 300 degrees F due to the lower Ms temperature of the 4130.

Good luck - Al
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-01-2007 03:46
To expand on the problem a little further, for the engineers line of reason to be closer to right He should have specified a SAE 1030 filler [is there such a thing?]. The chrome molly is much more hardenable at 30 point carbon than carbon steel at 30 point carbon. As others have stated A36 is a minimum yield strength requirement, not a material composition.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / A36 Steels, ER4130 Wire and GTAW

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