Consider using B2.1 for qualification.
Best regards - Al
Kix,
Don't know about any loopholes
But at least D1.3 has the flexability to provide prequalified WPS !
Every cloud has a silver lining eh?
I hate to say this but you to need to go back and review through D1.1:2007 before you even worry about trying to qualify to D1.3.Because it sounds like to me you are not to familiar with D1.1 code.You don't to be playing a guessing game with welding codes.Do you.
Hey Al,
What would some of the benefits be using B2.1 vs D1.3? I'm not real farmiliar with B2.1 Also would you guys recomend updating from the d1.3-89 edition to the 98 edition? We have the d1.3-89 edition on hand and the 98 edition is $100.00. If it's as thin as the 89 edition then someone knows how to make some money.lol
Hey graveyhog, your right i'm not farmiliar at all with the D1.1:2007 Code because there isn't one. ahhhhhhh just kiddin man i had to bust on ya and if ya can't take it then don't dish it..;-) This pup might be able to teach ya something here. K lets see D1.1 only goes in even years k.
No harm done. We can all help out in these situations.CWI555 has some very good information on this subject.
D1.1 2007 ?
I'm lookin all over and can't find my 2007 copy
What exactly should he review?
If your going to send a guy back to the drawing board you might actually serve him by providing at least a clue as to what it is you think you know, that he ought to know.
The code loophole your refering to is in regards to the use of the word should as follows:
1.2 Limitations
The code is "not intended" to be used for the following:
(2) Steels less than 1/8 in. [3 mm] thick. When base
metals thinner than 1/8 in. [3 mm] thick are to be welded,
the requirements of "AWS D1.3, Structural Welding
Code--Sheet Steel, should apply." When used in conjunction
with AWS D1.3, conformance with the applicable
provisions of this code shall be required.
1.3.6 Code Terms "Shall," "Should," and "May." "Shall,"
"should," and "may" have the following significance:
1.3.6.2 Should. The word "should" is used to recommend
practices that are considered beneficial, but are not
requirements.
According to D1.1 it's not the intention to use D1.1 for T < 1/8".
However; they contradict it by using the term "should".
To me it's playing with words, and since D1.3 has prequal's I usually resort to them rather than getting into the legalisms of the should/shall statements.
Regards,
Gerald
TO CWI555 very good information hats off to you!
What is the purpose of D1.1 and D1.3? D1.1 is primarily a common set of rules for a project where there a various independent companies involved. D1.3 is the same way. D1.1 is generally for structural applications. D1.3 was primarily written for decking applications although it can and often is applied to other situation.
It sounds like you are an OEM. I don't think everyone would agree that a ladder is a structure. Who is mandating that you build your ladders to D1.1 or to D1.3? My guess is no one. You are simply looking to tie your QC program to an established welding code. Since no one is mandating you to comply to D1.1 or D1.3 why do you feel it necessary to worry about the details here. Who is going to call you to task if you modify the code's requirements on your own authority as an OEM responsible for the design, fabrication, and inspection of your product.
You can establish your own internal welding requirements based upon D1.1 but not necessarily in full compliance with D1.1. You simply need to identify where D1.1 or D1.3 does not quite fit with what you want to do, make sound assumptions on a better way to do it, and then test the results to see if your assumptions are correct. If you end up getting reliable results in a repeatable manner, you're done.
You can qualify your procedures to B2.1 using a material thickness that will qualify for the thinner material you are using for the ladder and still weld some thicker section that falls within the range of D1.1.
Procedures qualified to B2.1 are accepable for D1.1 per paragraph 4.1.1.2 provided the engineer approves. If you are the OEM, it should not be an issue. Likewise, the OEM can use D1.1 as the basis of welding materials thinner than 1/8 inch if it is deemed to fit the manufacturer's needs.
There are a number of standards, such as one that addresses the fabrication of fire trucks and another standard that addresses aerial ladders and bucket trucks such as those used by utility companies, that specifically call out AWS D1.1 for the fabrication and qualification of WPSs and welders. In the case of fire truck ladders, I believe they call out D1.2 if the ladder is aluminum.
Good luck - Al
Al,
You hit the nail on the head about why we are using D1.1 and 1.3 for our fire trucks. Our ladders are very much structural considering how they are tested and what they do to them out in the field. They punch through walls and knock them down with our ladders. Hell, the last 6' of a ladder is replaceable because of what they do to these things. You never know when you might need to put just one more person on that ladder to save a life even though it's allready overloaded. All our aluminum baskets and L-Brackets are welded to D1.2. Thanks for all the great information on this subject. Now it's time to do some studying to see what might be the most cost-effective way to go about getting some new WPS's for our ladders. The place that did all the testing and qualification before I came up here lost all the documentation for our welding program so now I have to redo everything.
Thanks again, Ray C.
I agree with Al on this one because when I worked for American La France many moons ago, a similar question with respect to those same components was bought up and finally, clarified.
Brings back some memories :) :) :) Btw Kik, which type of, and manufacturer of fire trucks are ya or have been workin on?
Respectfully,
Henry
I work for Seagrave Fire Apparatus, LLC in Clintoville, Wi. We make our own ladders. I am also going to ordered the new/old D1.3 code book. Before i do so i wanted to check with you guys about how updated it is compared to the D1.3-89 edition.
By CWI555 
Date 11-03-2007 16:29
Edited 11-03-2007 16:32
Ray,
ANSI/SIA A92.2-2001 Vehicle-Mounted Elevating and Rotating Aerial Devices. You may want to start here if you've lost documentation. There is also some information found in NFPA 1901 Automotive fire apparatus 2003 edition. If you wish to make it all legalized, I suggest you start with those.
Regards,
Gerald
Why are you worried about qualification to D 1.3? It is certainly easier than qualification to D 1.1. The Procedure qualification is virtually the same as the Welder Performance qualification testing.
So does square tubing fall under the category or tubular in D1.1? I'm thinking it does, but I just wanted to clarify on here real quick. How do I go about qualifying my ladder rungs to the beam rail and the beam rail is less then 1/8" sheet metal and the ladder rung is a cylindrical tube with a wall thickness of less then a 1/8". All my T-K-Y connections are of square tubing and less then an 1/8" also. D1.3 does not have anything on tubular connections. So do i need to be looking to use something besides A.W.S. documentation on this stuff. I really wanted to stick with A.W.S. for all of our documentation.
I'am not real sure but can't you work from two different codes to get the results that kix is looking for on this sitution. I'am kinda wondering.Anybody Know the out come .
Yes i'm pretty sure i can work to however many different codes i want with engineerings approval. I'm pretty sure the customer has a say in what gets used as well and i think most of them are under the impression that we are using all A.W.S. documentation. I have no idea how they did it before all the changes were made and the paperwork was lost. A lot of the old procedures that we do have are no good anymore due to essential variable changes.
So you can use D1.3 & D1.1 to get your PQR's established. Correct .I'am digging for this information. Anybody !
Yes you can. D1.1 is for structural material ranging in the thicknesses of 1/8" to unlimited. D1.3 is for sheetmetal or anything 1/8" and below, but you can qualify thicker then an 1/8" under D1.3 if you want to.
Kix,
D1.3 ranges from ga sheet steel up to 3/16" and steels with 80ksi or less min. yield.
See D1.3 paragraphs 1.1 Scope and 1.2 Sheet Steel Base Metal
Kix;
What does the top level standard specify for welding? (listed by CWI555 in an earlier post: ANSI/SIA A92.2-2001 Vehicle-Mounted Elevating and Rotating Aerial Devices and NFPA 1901 Automotive fire apparatus 2003 edition.) If you wish to make it all legalized, I suggest you start with those.
I thought you agreed that D1.1 or D1.2 was specified for the aerial ladders, that being the case the decision has been made for you. Other aspects of the fabrication of structural components can be per whatever specification your engineering department is appropriate.
Best regards - Al
By Kix 
Date 11-07-2007 14:39
Edited 11-07-2007 14:50
Al,
I agree that D1.2 should be used for the aluminum telescopic aerialscopes and D1.1 can be used for some of the joints on the steel aerials. D1.1 will take care of a very small amount on our ladders because most of it is thinner than an 1/8". I mostly agreed that are ladders should be considered structural when someone said that ladders aren't structural. I am going to look into this ANSI/SIA A92.2-2001.
