6g position

By hogan

Date 11-14-2007 22:17

pipe at a 45 degree angle and not rotated

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 11-15-2007 07:28

I want to elaborate on Hogans reply a bit (he is correct BTW). Its going to be a groove butt joint in pipe which is to say the pipe has been beveled at an angle forming a groove to fill with weld when you put the two pieces together. To perform a 6g the two pipes must be welded when slanted at a position 45 degrees from the ground (or level). By "not rotated" Hogan is referring to the fact that you are not allowed to move the pipes at all they must be tacked and welded out in this position.

By tincan Date 11-15-2007 16:38

Mr. Tommyjoking,
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to like this forum.

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-22-2007 15:46

You can rotate it. . . . .jes don let me catch ya!!!!!!!!!

By Milton Gravitt (***)

Date 11-22-2007 16:58

If you rotate it, it is not a true 6g test is it. Know body might know, but you will know won't you.

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-22-2007 22:57

I'd sure like too see more inspectors regulate this portion of the test better though. This was my point. . . . . You pick your position, I mark it for testing and if it travels buh-bye. I guess I'm going to be an A******e CWI cuz I want you to be a "real" welder. If you are then we're probably gonna get along fine. I'd like to hear all the inspectors points of view regarding a pipe jack in the test booth during testing. Personally I'll allow it how bout you?? Any test. . . . . . .

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 11-23-2007 17:35

What do you allow the pipe jack for? Most guys I see need it to rest their arm on for the UH test. A lot of them use a file in the end of the pipe as a rest. I have tested,shall we say several, welders and never had one try to roll the pipe. When I witness a test, I witness a test. Now plate hands, those guys would weld in the chitter to keep you from seeing what they are doing. I tell them up front what I expect, and roughly 1 out of 10 will end up trying to run a bead flat and plead ingnorance. And I tell them up front the last drop of the milk of human kindness was squeezed out of my heart years ago for testing welders. If their momma died, if their kid has a birth defect and needs an operation, if their wife left them for a fitter, I DONT CARE!
Set the coupon(s), set your machine and weld.
BABRT's

By crazycajun (**)

Date 11-23-2007 21:09

depends on how their wife looks she might be able to find a good pipe fitter to show her how the pipe is suppose to fit. but as far as the test goes i make them tack it hard so if that tack breaks.a/ not much of a tacker or b/ ya tried to cheat. and that ends the story i heard someone down the road was looking for a wanna be welder try and put an app there. and i smile cause i had drill instructers or at least thats what they acted like cause i broke out in this feild as a fitter and there was no such thing as a short cut so if i had to do it right they will do it right or find another job that just dont care how many people die because they cant weld and something breaks down the road. could be me on that platform 10 yrs. from now and falling from nowhere is the same bird poop that a wanna be tried to take a short cut on.

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-24-2007 04:21

Well dbk I allow the pipe jack because and correct me if I'm wrong it's not addressed in the book. . . . . . . .right or wrong??????? I've always tried to be a by the book guy. I don't need the jack personally, but I tested fer a mongoloid once who took my grinder away after the root. Then tried to justify it under no visible grinder marks or some other snake oil, greased lightning BS. In my opinion he was making up his own rules which is not by the book. So that's my rationale. . . . . . . but I could be lyin to ya.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 11-24-2007 19:59

You are correct a welding support is not addressed in any welder testing. But neither is tack length. I have a prayer meeting before the test. I let them all know up front my requirements. When I broke out, no one let you grind the bead. If you could not get the waggon tracks out with the hot pass, they did not want you on the line. As time progressed, the companies found they got a better product by allowing grinding. Then they ran into problems with beads cracking because they were set down without enough support from the bead. So now they make the front hold through the HP, so they havent saved any time. And you still see waggon tracks.
I tell the welder right up front if they arc the pipe or get out of the grove with the grinder, its a bust. Just like on the line. Most company specs allow reject for grinder or arc marks. Any IP, its a bust, I gave up on bug holes years ago and let them grind and strip weld. I catch a welder playing cute with their coupons, its a bust. I do not play around when testing welders. But I dont do any BS either. The welders know up front exactly what is required. No arc burns, no grinder marks, cap above flush and no external UC. No ip on the bead and I look at the bead for UC after the hot pass. Any IUC, its a bust. On 12 inch pipe, 6 rods. I tell them I expect them to run from tack to tack. I allow grinding on the starts and stops. Everyone gets a copy of the welding procedure and I time the bead and check the amps and volts. Is this covered in any code? No. But I have a good reputation with companies I work and have worked for and the welders respect me because I am clear and up front with what is expected. Do I think I am a hard a$$? Dont care. What I do works for me.

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-25-2007 01:35

Nah I don't think your a harda** . . . . . somewhat of a pirate though!!

By JTMcC

Date 11-25-2007 03:30

Inspection's job is to moniter compliance with the applicable code(s), gas company requirements and dot regs.

When inspection decides to enforce personal preferences or hangups as if they were code, company or government requirements, professionalism is but a fond memory.

JTMcC.

By CWI555

Date 11-25-2007 05:08

API 1104
6 Qualification of Welders
6.1 GENERAL
The purpose of the welder qualification test is to determine
the ability of welders to make sound butt or fillet welds using
previously qualified procedures. Before any production welding
is performed, welders shall be qualified according to the
applicable requirements of 6.2 through 6.8. It is the intent of
this standard that a welder who satisfactorily completes the
procedure qualification test is a qualified welder, provided the
number of test specimens required by 6.5 have been removed,
tested, and meet the acceptance criteria of 5.6, for each
welder.

This clearly defines the requirements for welder quals. No more no less.
If there are specific grinding requirements, etc, they need to be in the procedure qual,
otherwise, It goes to this sentence.

"It is the intent of
this standard that a welder who satisfactorily completes the
procedure qualification test is a qualified welder"

Whatever an inspectors likes or dislikes are doesn't make a hill of beans. If it's not addressed
in the WPS or a company specific WI, it not only should be, it is required to be hands off.

If the WPS, or working instructions derived from the WPS, per the company policies, and
QA program do not address specific concerns, they either they get addressed in the proper
channels and manner, or it's given to the welder.

I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way without it becoming cowboy code.

Now there are some codes which use "good workmanship sentences". That is another story.

Using 620 as an example

The workmanship and finish shall be first class in every
respect and subject to the closest inspection by the manufacturer's
inspector, whether or not the purchaser waives any part
of the inspection.

That sentence, is an open invitation for cowboy code.

Therefore, It is my opinion, that special care should be taken in compliance with the code.
Speaking as one who works to a myriad of codes, the individual nuances of each code must be
adhered to without fail, without one leaking over into another, and with the utmost professionalism.
Each and every time, no matter how many times I've read the code, I will look up the specifics
of that code when I switch to that code.
Doing anything else is making a mistake, as is letting personal opinion make the decision for you.

Regards,
Gerald

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 11-25-2007 16:57

Go to the next paragraph. ...the welder shall be allowed reasonable time to adjust the welding equipment to be used. The welder shall use the same welding technique and proceed with the same speed he will be using if he passes the test and is permitted to do production welds. (Opinion:There goes the guy who uses 10 welding rods to run his bead, grinds and re-runs the bead, and takes 30 minutes to get it in.)
6.4 Visual Inspection ...weld shall be free of cracks, inadequate penetration, and burn through, and must present a neat workmanlike appearance. (Opinion: Code defines cracks, Ip and BT, who defines neat workmanlike appearance. That comes from skill,training and experience.Section 8.3)
Section 9.2 "The company may therefore reject any weld that appears to meet these acceptance standards if, "IN ITS OPINION", the depth of the imperfection may be detrimental to the weld." (Opinion: Who defines opinion on a test?)

Every x-country pipeline I have been on the company specification does not allow arc burns or grinder marks outside the weld grove. Some will allow repair, but it is at the inspectors decression. And after extensive NDT. Most companies allow the inspector, as the company's representative, the final right of acceptance or rejection. As long if the company specification exceed the code requirement, then the company specification is the governing document.
When it comes to testing the welders, I have had tricks played on me over the years by welders testing trying for a break. I have NEVER given a welder a break testing which did not come back to bite me. When I see a welder struggling with his bead on the test, you can bet he will struggle with it in the field. If his cap looks like crap on test day, it will look like crap in the field. If there are grinder marks on the test coupon, there will be grinder marks in the field. Once a welder leaves the test site, a lot of times all you will hear is from the field inspector about that "Queen" you sent out. Or how the guy you knew was having problems with his bead winds up on tie-in's and has a 50% repair rate, all on the bead. Or the guy who was running at the edge of travel speed on the bead winds up on the front end with a 10% repair rate. These and others are mistakes I have made. My undeveloped skills, experience and overconfidence cost $$$. I was fortunate I was allowed to learn my craft and while taking some grand A$$ eatings, I learned from my mistakes. But my mistakes are what has gotten me where I am.

I broke into this craft, taught by people who thought inspectors were GOD's. I have learned over the years, we are not. When I test welders, I expect perfection. The welder has every break and benefit to pass the test. The coupons are just right, the bevel is just so, the conditions are controled. I can expect perfection. I do not demand from the welder what will not be demanded from him in the field. Letting a welder pass a test that looks like crap but it meets code does not do him any good and you can bet he will wind up costing the contractor $$, the company time and in the end he gets run off. So I demand perfection when testing.

In the field, I expect excellence. When a welder is standing on his head in a left handed bell hole, making a hard tie-in, its raining and they are holding a tarp over his head, I want to know that welder has the ability to make a perfect weld. I know if the weld is only 75% because of conditions then it will still be a better weld than the one made by a welder whose test just met code and it is only 75%. If as the company representative I have to make the call on accepting a weld when it is out of code, (Oh yea, sometimes this has to be done!) I want to be sure when I make that call, and document the reasoning behind it, if it ever comes to a deposition, the welder who made the weld was capable of making a perfect weld. OR if I have to recommend to the Project manager or Project Engineer a weld should be accepted, I know the welder who made the weld was capable of making a perfect weld.

I still believe and practice you are up front with the welders on what you will expect from the test. Have a hand out sheet if you need to, but most of them will not look at it anyway. If the welders you test know you are firm, but fair they will respect you. If they know you know your business and will not settle for half ass, then they will give that to you. They will start being your inspectors. Which lowers your load in the field. When it comes to testing, allowing average will result in below average field results. Demanding perfection will result in above average field results.

If having this mindset and attitude defines one as a cowboy or pirate,
RRRRRRR Yippie ki ya

By CWI555

Date 11-25-2007 18:17

I understand what your saying. However; it still needs to be in writing. Inserting opinion and conjecture is wrong. I don't see anything in 8.3 that gives the inspector the right to insert opinion, nor a definition for workmanlike appearance.

8.3 QUALIFICATION OF INSPECTION
PERSONNEL
Welding inspection personnel shall be qualified by experience
and training for the specified inspection task they perform.
Their qualifications shall be acceptable to the company.
Documentation of these qualifications shall be retained
by the company and shall include but is not limited to the
following:
a. Education and experience.
b. Training.
c. Results of any qualification examinations.

Maybe I've forgotten how to read, but I don't see it anywhere in there.

As for 9.2 the company defines that opinion, and it should be in writing again, if it's not, then it's an error to assume.
Those sentences of "in the companies opinion" "workmanlike appearance" are for the company to define.

If the company has not addressed these matters and creates the situation that you describe here
"Letting a welder pass a test that looks like crap but it meets code does not do him any good and you can bet he will wind up costing the contractor $$, the company time and in the end he gets run off."

"looks like crap but meets the code". Last time I checked it's not a beauty contest. If there is some other criteria other than "meeting the code" then it had better be in writing.

In saying all that, my """personal opinion""" is that to many welders use the grinder as a crutch. My opinion is these people don't need to be in the field until they can do the work without buying stock in the disk supply chain. That however; is only my opinion, not to be enforced without it being in black and white.
I see a hell of a lot of things I don't like, things I've seen the beginning, the middle and the after affects of. Things experience tells me is wrong, but only the company/owner can do anything about it. Making that call on my own is stepping into the shoes of the engineer/owner, and that is the absolute worst thing any inspector can do.

By ZCat

Date 11-25-2007 23:23

I tested for a power plant last week and saw something I didn't agree with. These guys would slide the coupon holder up about 7 feet in the air and stand up to weld the bottom, then slide it back down to weld the top. Didn't seem right to me, that scaffold ain't gonna slide up and down.

By Aspirate (**)

Date 12-05-2007 04:09

and the subject was 6G

(not you, ZCat)

By makeithot (***)

Date 12-14-2007 02:19

Why would you ask the welder to weld from tack to tack? I have always been told that 60XX does not weld well in the last 1/2 or 1/4 of the rod so one should not worry about getting to the next tack if the rod starts to finger nail etc. Better to have a clean stop and start then a blow out.????

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 12-14-2007 13:26 Edited 12-14-2007 14:31

Why would you ask the welder to weld from tack to tack?
It s my test, I represent the customer and on a real pipeline job a contractor will not let you start, stop grind repeat and stay around.

I have always been told that 60XX does not weld well in the last 1/2 or 1/4 of the rod so one should not worry about getting to the next tack if the rod starts to finger nail etc.
That last 1/4 of the rod is different than the first 1/2??????

Better to have a clean stop and start then a blow out.????
Sure, I guess, except on the test.
BABRt's

By spgtti

Date 01-18-2008 08:31

First off its not YOUR test. Its MY test until turned over to you at predetermined inspection hold points. You are only a proctor for a company sent to verify that code conditions are met through out the testing process. Predetermined numbers of rods and "production" speed time limits you impose in your testing are crap. Arrogant inspectors like yourself waste our time and money as we welders travel the country, while you wait for your suckass buddies to make it to your job. Fortunately the majority of inspectors we run across are fair and impartial oversight, it's the couple of guys like you I've ruin across in my 15 years that keep us all wary.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 01-19-2008 16:37

Sorry buck,
until you pass the test you have no say. The contractor has given you to opportunity to work for him on a project. The owner of the pipe you are testing on has hired me to see the welders welding on their pipe are capable and qualified. The contractor really does not care if you make the test or not. What they are concerned about is the production the welder can crank out. The welding inspector's job is to see the welding meets the customers requirements and code requirements.
I do not do this on my own. After over 20 years as an inspector, as the customers representative they know exactly how I test and I guess it is the reason I get called back project after project. I see the same welders all the time and sometimes they make the test and sometimes they dont. But I test the welders the same every time. I have never been called unfair. I will not let a little piece of IP pass for one guy and call it on another. I have even busted my own brother in law.
What I do and how I do it is not influenced by what welders or contractors think of me or my methods. WAA WAA WAA.
The inspectors responsibility is to the customer. Not making welders either happy or unhappy.
BABRT's

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 11-26-2007 18:26

Taking this test for the Navy, usually on 2" extra strong CrMo, the coupons were marked by NDT during fit-up, and if it's found out of position it's a fail. However, this test was allowed to be removed from the jig for grinding, which in the Navy is the gospel, including the cap, smooth as a baby's booty.

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-30-2007 20:44

Wow. . .I didn't think it was going to get this entertaining!!! Great stuff and from a newbie inspector standpoint I can't say this enough I APPRECIATE IT I really ask because I want too know. BKahuna, as usual I come from the same camp as you on most things. . .I feel as though being trained by ol' skool pipeliners in the Arctic was a true benefit and a blessing. The repair rate was omnipotent. . . .the inspector was God. . .and we didn't resent them but viewed them as a mentor and expert. I'm not sucking up here, just giving others some insight. . .a "chitty" inspector didn't last any longer than another "lackalazical" MF on the job. We were taught to uphold the integrity of our trade and be proud of the work we delivered to the client in conditions that were EXTREME. For what it's worth I don't believe anyone should be allowed to slide the coupon up and down. And now that I've read some of the verbage BK sent in I am starting to question the jack stand option myself. Because obviously in a tight, restricted area etc. you might not have any other means of support that piping or structure. That's what I love about this forum it makes me think about things.