Now, keep in mind this has nothing to do with the dangers of welding or being in a weld shop or jobsite... it has to do with knowing a good weld from a bad weld.
The reason this is scary, for me at least, is when I look around at welded structures that are around me that were welded by someone who had no bussiness at all being behind the hood.
Its not very comforting to be smoking a cig and looking at the welded canapoy above your head where you can see the porosity and lack of fusion on rather critical looking support members.
It happens to me all the time... and all i can hope is that the skilled welder was working on the parts that i cant see anymore...
Off to class and hoping the building wolnt collapse (the one im going to has some of the scariest welds ive seen on campus...)
- Clif
Hello Clif, it's funny when you take an interest in something: music, welding, architecture, or any other sort of hobby, career, or other level of interest in something, how then, all of the sudden, you notice that sort of thing specifically. I used to play drums a long time ago and yet whenever I listen to music, I generally always follow that portion of the music more than the other parts. Similarly as you stated in this thread, when I go anywhere where there are welded anythings, that is the first thing that I am looking at. I am noticing the quality of the welds, determining whether they were field welded or shop welded, which process was used, why they did it that way and not some other way or appreciating the way it was done as I hadn't thought of doing it that way before, admiring and wishing to comment to the individual who did a particularly exceptional bit of welding, any number of other thoughts pass through the old grey matter. Like you said, kind of scary sometimes, but on the other hand also very encouraging in many other instances. Best regards, Allan
I started out in a fab shop and was taught that everything should be fit up to within 1/16" but if a small effort will put the part "right on" why not do it?
Welding was the same way, Good enough was good enough but if a reasonable extra effort made "perfect", you did that.
When I got into inspection, I did mostly shop bridge work. The owners would really "hammer" on grinding edges, arc strikes, chain dents...grinding marks had to line up with the member's length. And absolutoey NO runs, drips, or sags in the paint!
I then got assigned to inspection on a bridge rehab job - stripping off the old deck, adding some new steel, field welding cover plates, and so on. It was ironic, for lack of a better term, to see girders arriving with beautiful paint jobs and then get dropped into the mud and gravel. Cables and come-alongs made chain dents and scraped off more paint.
Then I saw the existing steel that had just about everything wrong you could imagine, as far as weld quality goes. Holes gouged in with welding rods (evidently for a clevis or something), junk iron welded on every which way for concrete shear anchors, cuts acros the flanges, and you name it.
It was very difficult to tell a welder that he had to grind out an arc strike or fix a small undercut when you saw what was beside it. The resident engineer was fully aware of the steel condition. Orders were to follow the codes for new material, anything "critically" wrong with old steel would be evaluated and repaired, but other than that, "what it is is what it is". (I'm not talking major corrosion or cracking, I'm talking "ugly" stuff that had obviously stood the test of time).
Why worry about the arc strike on new steel? Because that is what the client wanted and condition of old steel was irrelevent to the scope of work.
It is always prudent to be aware of what is in the environment around you. But sometimes you gotta focus only on task at hand.
Hello Chet, as I believe you generally said in your post, sometimes you have to ignore what is around you and concentrate on the job at hand. Have done many rebuilds, upgrades, and other types of work where the old gets mixed with the new. Always tried to do the best with what was there to work with and within the scope of the intent of the job(don't build a swiss watch when the old tried and true sun-dial will suffice). As I believe you also elluded to, it matters not what everything looks like when your steel ends up next to it, if your steel isn't to print and expectations, you will be taken to task on it. I was involved with a project where we had a number of columns that were going to be a big part of an important piece of a project. The base plates for these columns were round, 2 1/2" thick, 48" in diameter and had sixteen 2" holes through them, took extreme care in the hole layouts and had them drilled by an outside source, as the shop at that time, wasn't equipped to drill anything that size. Finished these up and sent them out to the site..... Next day about 2/3 of them showed back up, along with plywood patterns that were numbered and indexed to go with each column. Against my better judgement, but not my call, we proceeded to transfer the hole corrections to the plates and hand-burn the necessary clearances to achieve a fit. Job superintendent okayed these corrections, unbelievable, and wrote and signed a waiver of responsibility for us. Found out later that the folks who set the footings made a major boo boo and must've had an in with the superintendent, most would have had to demolish and re-set and pour new footings. One of those learning experiences. Good points Chet, enjoyed the read. Regards, Allan
No...the concrete guys NEVER set anchor bolts wrong....<biggest sarcasm that I could muster up>
That is Funny, on another forum, where occupations vary as much as the color of crayons in a huge box from Crayola...we were just talking about this very topic the other day...how our eyes tend to drift towards what we know and are familiar with....I commented that my wife rolls her eyes at me whenever we walk into a building with a steel structure exposed and I start pointing out the number of missing bolts, or judgeing and critiquing the quality of the welds....LOL
It's true, it's true. Before my inspection career, through high school and college, I was employed with a lawn service, then a tire shop. I always had to look at yards as I passed by and comment on the high grass that needed cutting, or comment on the current cut condition. Then with the tire shop, I had to look at almost every single tire I passed on the road or a parking lot and try to guess the size before I looked at it, or the manufacturer from the tread pattern.
My buddy is an HVAC tech - we'll be outside talking and/or drinking and he'll hear a neighbor's AC unit kick on and have to comment that it either sounds good, or he mentions whats wrong with it.
Another buddy is a used car salesman, and I always get a scoop on auction prices of certain vehicles as we see them driving down the road.
Thats right!! They never set them wrong here in Colorado. Least not anymore! Went to a job this morning with forty tons of struc steel and a big crane. Went down into the hole to check it out. Surprise surprise! There in the newly poured about a week ago footing was quite a sight. NO ANCHOR BOLTS! NONE. Not even a small one! Asked mister Superhero jobsite superintendent what happened to the anchor bolts. He replied that the concrete guys had complained about putting in the bolts. He said that in his experience they never get them right anyway. So in his infinite wisdom, he told them to just leave them out. I asked him just what did he expect me to attach the steel to the footings with. He said I could just bolt the steel altogether and then set it in place as an assembly. Then he said it would be freestanding on its own. I told him HMMMM! Not quite sure how that is going to work. Told him I was out of the magic fairy dust needed to perform this feat. Went ahead and off loaded the steel package into the hole and left. His boss calls me in a panic asking why we did not erect the building. Told him no anchor bolts. He assured me he would get them installed in the next wo days by the concrete contractors. I can only imagine the fun they are going to have trying to get even epoxy anchors installed into those footings when they have all that steel stacked on them. Let alone the fact that it is supposed to snow more this week. Sure glad they found a solution to the anchor bolts in the wrong place.
Stupidity has a place .............. sometimes it is on my jobs! Looking for that elusive bottle of stupid repellant. It should make my company more profitable.
I think Ross needs to get the FC2002 printed very soon, and Al needs to add that one to it! I have the draft copy printed and bound at work, I have even referenced it once right before a welder got his walking papers!
I have that "curse", too. I can't walk by a railing that I'm not hypnotized into inspecting each weld and the alignment of each rail. I've seen welds on sprinkler piping in the mall that just make my teeth hurt. But then, I take a ferry and see the absolutely perfect welds on each stiffener to plate weld, and the world becomes a beautiful place.
Bob G.
Why worry about the arc strike on the new steel? Because what's in the field is bad enough; you don't need to be sending something else out that is worse than it needs to be. (That and, yes, it's what the client wants--and is paying for.)
When people complain that we demand a beautiful paint job when it'll just get mangled in the field, I tell them that the worse the field is, the better the shop needs to be to compensate. The fab shop is the best chance that poor girder has; it's all downhill from there.
Likewise, if the shop finds out the field has a tolerance allowing 10% of holes reamed per connection, that does NOT mean they get to do that as well. That 10% allowance is to cover the inevitable field screwups (yes, like the concrete guys getting the supports wrong, or whatever); the shop is capable of getting it right. Errors multiply. We start out as good as we can.
Back to the original post--I remember the first time I ever toured a building construction site after having seen only bridge welding. I was horrified. It's still hard to put myself in a D1.1 mentality when I'm supposed to.
Hg
I here ya. I find myself constantly eyeing almost every weld I pass, whether it be on a machine at the gym, a friend's aluminum boat repair job...anything that has a noticeable weld, I can't help but "inspect without judging"...out loud at least, lol. And it isn't just a glance straight on from my view, I have to casually scroll arount the entire joint of pipe/tubing, or along the length of the member and critique if any discontinuities are found and then proceed to ask myself "I wonder if this company has an inspection department" and "how could someone not see this???", or I try to figure out what process they used especially when it's not the obvious stick, mig or tig weld.
Speaking of bad welds, our shop building that was built a year ago, I couldn't help but notice horribly poor welding on the bay door rails to the beams....I know, it probably doesn't have any structural concerns, but man, they just look horrible....not to mention the welds on the natural gas piping that supplies the shop. Of course there are no leaks from pin holes and such, but my GOD, those guys should not be allowed anywhere near welding lead.
you all know someone can buy a welder from Northerntool a "cool" hood and bam instant welder. we all know the type, we fix their "welds" everyday. Weather its a boat, railing, or rig. Its scarry. But look it keeps us busy, and when their true identity is brought to light, we get more work, and makes us look that much better. thanks guys.
thats the spirit, more work for us who have our heads wired to our asses.
but sometimes there are those welds where we cant fix them no matter how much we want to... like the ones at my school.
some of them are so nasty that id almost like to PAY the college to let me fix them, just so id feel better....
I can remember one time me and my friend and his G/f were coming back from Plattsburg after getting silly drunk. So were crusing down the northway, all hungover, and we come up next to this truck carrying a whole bunch of propane tanks. me and my buddy start lookin it over (hes a welder too) and in very short order we were both yelling at his GF to drive faster. We could see the swiss cheese like welds on the frame holding the tanks in, and the tanks them selfs looked like they were welded by a FC2002 Reject.
I do appericate the good welds when i see them, and im always guessing at how they were welded. Seeing that perfect stack of dimes on the frame to your desk is always a happy thing, especily when you look around and see the cracks running through the middle of the weld on others......
-Clif
Man, you guys hit it on the head. I can't walk through a mall, go to the train station, walk in a plant, look at a car, or anything else that has steel welded parts and not help but look at the quality of work. I often say to myself, " What junk, wonder how much these guys paid for that, I could do it better than that."
Once it's in your blood, that's all I think about when I see steel.
I can't hold my tongue at amusement parks.... Even the kiddie rides have crappy welds on the gates.... People are not happy to be near me at the county fair.
the last time i had to inspect at an amusement park. i was in the maintenance shop and there was a recent flood. the foreman showed me the water marks on the wall where it had flooded. it was about 6 to 8' up. he then told me how he had to wait for a good week for all of his smaw electrodes to dry out. he must have been ahead of his time, he was already adhering to the farm code.
he then told me how he had to wait for a good week for all of his smaw electrodes to dry out. he must have been ahead of his time, he was already adhering to the farm code.-Quote
That is hilarious....not really, ....but your comment about him being ahead by adhereing to the newly released Farm Code, was sure funny.
There's a lot of shops I visit that will be looking to invoke the "Other Big Red Book" as often and as soon as they can!
Best regards - Al
I thought that perhaps I was the only one who noticed every weld that I passed by. I loved the day that my children began to notice the welds. "Hey Mom look at this, you can do better than that!" We often got a few strange looks, such as standing in line at an amusement park inspecting the the welds on the handrail. I suppose once you start welding it is in your blood. My kids certainly picked up on poor quality welds quickly and thats "out of the mouth of babes" Go figure!
Alumtig
Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / It can be scary knowing how to weld...
