who owns your cert.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 12-11-2007 13:45

These are proprietary documents, therefore they are exclusive to the company that paid for the testing.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 12-12-2007 00:45

And now Section IX has codified the requirement the test papers stay with the originating fabricator.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-12-2007 04:29

CK,

Let the outfits pay for your new papers.... Even if you were able to get copies of your qualification certs. about 99% of employers are going to test you again anyhow... Certs rarely travel from employer to employer... The Common Arc is one exception I can think of.

By Plasma-Brain (**)

Date 02-02-2008 20:06

Lawrence,
What is "The Common Arc" cert?
I didn't think any certs carried over unless say, you went from one shop working with cert X to work at another shop using cert X.

Curious as always,
-Clif

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-03-2008 05:37

www.commonarc.com/welcome.htm - 6k

Boilermakers........ Multiple contractors wittness welder performance qual testing at a single site..... All contractors agree to accept the quals... Smart program.. Big money saver.

By Plasma-Brain (**)

Date 02-04-2008 15:53

Ahh ok, sounds neat but its nothing im going to run into for a while.
Thank you
-Clif

By welder6g (**)

Date 12-31-2007 15:29

The Cert is just a liability thing for the company so they can testify that you are doing the Welding in acceptable procedure and test proves it.Some Inspectors in charge of your docs will give u a copy if they know you,but the Company can be a real stickler about giving it to you because when you also have the proof in your hand some places will steal you a little faster....Human Resources likes to use testing to thier advantage also when they want to slim the workforce by simply testing all the Welders.They fire the ones that fail.You know as well as I do that even good Welders don`t pass everytime.....Just a thought.I have taken many Tests over the past twenty years and don`t pass all of them.

By 803056

Date 01-06-2008 21:16

Many welders do not understand what is involved when it comes to welder qualification. Welder qualification is based on code (or welding standard) requirements. Some codes require each employer to qualify their welders, as such the test record (certificate) is of no value to the new employer other than to indicate the welder has passed a test in the past. Welders are not the only one's that have a hard time grasping what is required and what is involved. Many companies and customers have a hard time understanding all the intricacies involved. The is no "one welder qualification" for all applications.

Other welding codes allow the welder's qualification to be passed from one employer to another provided the new employer accepts responsibility for the welder's work. AWS D1.1 is one such code, i.e., the welder can use the test record (certification) on any number of projects and any number of employers provided the new employer is willing to accept them (they don't have to accept qualification by a previous employer).

Some states (some cities as well) require the welder to pass a performance test administer by the city or state and a licensing fee is required. Previous qualification is not accepted.

The bottom line is whether or not the welder "owns" the certification is entirely dependent on the welding code or standard invoked by the customer or mandated by the appropriate building code or legislation. In my mind he who pays for the performance test "owns" the paperwork. If you want to own the "welder certification" be prepared to pay a testing laboratory to test you and provide the documentation you require. Once again, depending on the welding code you are working to, a welding procedure may also need to be qualified by testing. This can cost several thousand dollars depending on the code and the number of times it takes you to weld a sample that passes all the tests required by the applicable code.

All but the small contractors are going to most likely require the welder to requalify using their in-house procedures whether the welder has copies of previous qualification or not, however, it is always good to show the prospective employer that you have been qualified before.

Best regards - Al

By James Corbin (**)

Date 02-09-2008 04:53

I agree with Al. I require all new hires to Re--qualify no matter what, which some of the companies owners dislike. (Some would think I should accept any and all papers including only a cert card. and make up paperwork) Too bad. It's my name on the bottom line not theirs. When another agency asks for papers anyone who has not tested with me is not listed. (It's called throwing them under the bus) And yes the payer owns the certs and responsibility to keep up with all the WPSs and other documentation needed to go with it. I have over 400 WPSs to cover anything we have done. Let alone calibration logs, weldor performance logs, rod box logs etc.
CYA
Even if a weldor pays for his/her own tests and gets docs, they need all the welding procedures to go with it. (WPSs) Who is going to pay for that, the weldor?????? LOL

By 803056

Date 02-09-2008 15:24

There are hundreds of welders, no probably thousands of welders that own their rigs and operate off their truck or a small shop with valid welder certifications. For the most part, they can weld the majority of their products with one or two welding procedure specifications.

Most structural steel welding can be performed with one "well" written WPS. It will consist of more than a single page document as shown in ASME Section IX or the annex of AWS D1.1. Likewise, the majority of welded mechanical piping on carbon steel (P1 material) can be a single WPS and stainless piping (P8 material) with a second WPS. Heavy equipment repairs can also be accomplished with a single WPS, but as I stated, it will consist of more than a single page document.

Among the only owners that I have encountered that requires separate WPSs for each project and each joint or groove type are the state DOTs. Most customers are satisfied with a single WPS that addresses each material group based on group numbers, P numbers, S numbers, etc. for each welding process. Still, that can add up to a multitude of WPSs that can create a paperwork nightmare.

To help me sort and keep the WPSs manageable, I use a "naming" system that is relatively easy and intuitive. Each WPS is listed by the process/base metal (1) / base metal (2) / and the filler metal. For example:

GTA-1/8/6 is for gas tungsten arc welding carbon steel to austenitic stainless steel with an F6 filler metal.

There are times, such as when meeting notch toughness is required, where instead of listing the material group, I simply list the material specification(s) strength and filler metal. Another example:

FCA-516 gr55 / E71T-8

The simplicity and beauty is that I know exactly what is being welded by "reading" the name of the WPS. The fluxcored example is simply fluxcored arc welding of 516 grade 55 steel using an E71T-8 all position multipass electrode that meets impact requirements.

Some people have made jabs and comments about the "length" of the names, but compare the system I have adopted to those WPSs that simply start with 001 and stop at 368 (or more). I had one client that did just that. Every time you needed a WPS you had to read each one to find the one that was for welding austenitic stainless to carbon steel using gas tungsten arc welding with a ER309. There was no systematic approach to their numbering system.

The system may not work for bridges where it is probably simpler to simply include the project number in the identification of the WPS.

Best regards - Al

By James Corbin (**)

Date 02-09-2008 22:09

Now I must disagree. Just using the D1.1 Define the WPS.... The DETAILED methods and practices including all joint welding procedures involved in the production of a weldment.....The materials and DETAILED methods and practiced employed in the welding of a PARTICULAR joint.
With that in mind NO one welding procedure can address ALL the parameters involved in making each joint parameters as listed in section 3 & Figures 3.2 - 3.3 - 3.4 - 3.5 - 3.6 - 3.7 - 3.8 - 3.9 - 3.10 - 3.11 if you think so your kidding yourself. If you list joint parameters and a joint detail of a joint on the WPS (see the example on page339) THAT IS THE ONLY JOINT IT IS GOOD FOR.
You would need a code book for each crew (see copy right laws) and teach them how to use sections 2, 3 & 5 at a minimum. I have yet to see a code book in a shop (locked in the office does not count and its usually out of date) that each weldor could use (let alone understand) to find all the parameters to prep & weld a joint using a generic WPS not listing groove prep or a Joint Detail. There is a big difference between a B-P2 detail, a B-U2 detail, a B-P4, and a B-U4b.
The complete content list of a WPS can be found in Annex Q and its too big a list for one WPS to cover all.
We could even talk about heat input i.e. a ¼ inch fillet need about 31 kJin. a 5/16 inch fillet needs 48 kJin etc. and its effected by travel speed, how about Z loss on a skewed T vs weld size does your one WPS address that? Most weldors I have asked that during an audit never heard of Z loss let alone what to do about it.
Got a couple of hours

By 803056

Date 02-10-2008 03:45

Please let me bow to my superior.

Al

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-10-2008 05:03

James,

AWS sells SWPS with multiple joint details.

Better put a stop to that too while your at it.

By James Corbin (**)

Date 02-10-2008 06:50

If you analyze the WPS from AWS it does not even meet their own specs as shown 3.6 Limitation of variables. Note the Amps / Volts the range for FCAW is limited to table 4.5 + or -10% and 7% the "prequalified by AWS" range is wider than that. AND yes I understand they do it by using several PQRs to get this range and charge you lots of money for it. Also please note the preheat starts at 50 not 32 and without impacts. I bought one, it is too limiting for my taste and a dozen pages long, like my weldors are going to read all that and start their preheat at 50. It's also not much of a guide for a weldor to set his/her machine with such a wide range when they did not go to a formal weldor training. My WPSs have an "optimum" setting which when set will work first time without playing with the dials. It is so easy to write a WPS, I can do it for the normal electrodes I use in less than 10 minutes. (I pre programmed it on an excel sheet with auto math for the min max variables and use the full range of min preheat.) I also change the range on thicker materials using the kJin heat input as guide. I don't use the API or ASME codes much and can't speak about what they do but did spend 6 years in D1.5 fracture critical, which has even more limits.
But Please do what your comfortable with. It's Your name is on the bottom not mine.

By radom38 Date 01-22-2008 11:16

I take it FWE is the same as a CWB in canada. Structural ticket right? This was acually a question on the Journeyman's exam. What I'm doing right now is getting a union to sponcer me and just paying the union dues every month ($20). that way it will be transferable to anywhere I work just as long as they're CWB shop.

By weldgault (**)

Date 01-24-2008 03:15

You would be better off in your garage practicing instead of complaining, it will do you more good. We can help if given the chance. John