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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / FYI - DSA BULLETIN 07-03 - UPDATE - AISC RELEASE
- - By pax23 (**) Date 11-16-2007 20:05
I did not see this posted on the site anywhere, I thought I would bring this to the forum member's attention:

DSA's investigation of defective tube steel, or Hollow Section Steel (HSS) as it is also called, continues. DSA Bulletin BU 07-03 has been updated and posted to the DSA Web site, Publications page and Testing Labs page. Pictures of some defective welds found (as well as a good seam weld for comparison purposes) can be found on the Testing Labs page.

http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/bulletins/bu_07-03_update.pdf
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 11-17-2007 05:01
any info on who is making it?
Parent - By pax23 (**) Date 11-19-2007 17:14
Most of the information going around is anecdotal. The original report from DSA stated that it was HSS material coming in from China. I have seen nothing from another authoritative source definitively verifying this early report.

Whether or not this is relatively isolated or more broad in scope is yet to be determined.

I have an eye on a few investigations on this issue and will post updates when they come to my attention.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 11-17-2007 19:19
thanks
Parent - By Bob Garner (***) Date 11-19-2007 23:12
That is scary.  Especially the attempts to grind out the failures without re-welding.  I have a project with HSS so I guess a little pre-inspection before accepting the materials is going to have to happen.
Parent - By pax23 (**) Date 12-20-2007 17:55
Parent - - By pax23 (**) Date 05-21-2008 20:15
I am a little late on this one:
http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/bulletins/BU_07-03_UPDATE2_3-7-08.pdf
This is DSA's 2nd update to their initial bulletin which came out a couple months ago.

Not sure what to make of this. Seems to be somewhat more extensive than I expected it would be. Looks like buyers need to be more careful on initial inspection and receipt of this material and probably other HSS products. I know of at least one situation where A500 exhibiting the defects mentioned in the DSA bulletin was manufacturing in the good old USA.

Pictures for those interested:
http://www.dsa.dgs.ca.gov/labs/hss_pictures.htm
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 05-22-2008 16:00
When we build our products for use in China they have in the contract..... absolutely no Steel Made in China is to be used and they personaly come here to check this!!!! So my Guess is they know they have problems.
Mike
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-22-2008 16:02
Thats pretty bad when they do not want thier own product back!! LOL! I do not know about anyone else but that just SCREAMS red flag to me!!

John
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-22-2008 20:41 Edited 05-22-2008 20:46
Found these in our yard today.  USA steel to boot. While the pictures are of poor quality, the seams show signs of incomplete penetration and also many visual seam cracks showing at the ends of the tubes.
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Parent - - By pax23 (**) Date 05-22-2008 21:12
Your call but you might want to share that with DSA, below is from their bulletin:

"DSA will continue to investigate this issue, collect data, and assess the magnitude
of the problem. In addition to the standard California Building Code (CBC)
reporting requirements, it is imperative that all relevant investigations be reported
to DSA Headquarters at eric.france@dgs.ca.gov so that data can be compiled and
disseminated. Please direct any questions regarding this Bulletin to Eric France
(916) 445-2193."
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 20:08
Just an update. I liquid penetrant tested two of the tubes this morning. They bled like stuck pigs!! Vendor rep. came and while he was not happy, he did not have a leg to stand on. He started by stateing "It meets specs for A500." I informed him that, while I had not PMIed the material, the composition of the material was never in question. As we are looking at the ends of 82 joints he sees 2 or 3 that are not quite as bad on the ends and says "I do not think they are ALL bad." A match of the heat and batch #'s and a flashlight solved that. They will be picking up THIER fencepost, paper wieght, or boat anchor material and issuing credit. :-)
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Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 20:55
"I don't see the problem. There's plenty of weld to either side of the indications. Aren't they supposed to be intermittent welds?"

That would most like be the reply a few of my favorite contractors would have. They are my favorite contractors because they are "money in the bank."

I'm sitting here in the airport "lounge" with a group of about 10 people from one of the major airlines. I couldn't help but overhear what they were saying about their experiences with customers and with their employer. I finally couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer. I told them that I used to fly if the drive time was more than four hours, then it became 10 hours, then twelve hours. Next week I will be driving nearly 18 hours rather than put up with the BS of late flights, missed connections, TSA idiots, etc. Flying is not longer fun.

I did mean to say "TSA idiots". I believe they are hiring idiots to fill the open slots. This afternoon it appeared to be a slow period at the airport. I was in line where the TSA opened every bag that contained any kind of electronic gear and passed it through the x-ray machine several times. Not just one questionable bag, every carry-on bag that passed through that one x-ray machine/operator was x-rayed at least twice if not more times. They didn't just reverse the belt, they would carry the bag around to the beginning of the belt and pass it or the electronic gear through the machine again. Then they swabbed every bag. Of course it had to be the line I was standing in. Give me a break. It seems to get worse every time I travel. My carry on with my welding hood and steel toed shoes must have been x-rayed three times. If the airlines are that dangerous to the general public they should all be grounded. Sorry for the diversion from the subject of this thread.

Best regards - Al 
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 21:07
Al,
Thats ok. It reminds me of a commercial I saw recently, and I do not remember what they were advertizing but they are haveing a meeting and one guy says "We need to find new customers, the ones we have now complain too much." LOL :-)

Sorry to hear about your airport hassles. I used to hate layovers at O'Hare. Everytime it was long enough that you were really inconvienanced but not long enough to go do or see anything exept the high dollar bars with no smoking area.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend,
John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 21:28
Same to you and your family.

Likewise, Happy Memorial Day everyone.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 06-03-2008 15:51
orer China junk.....

TITLE: Defective Bolting Materials
CONCERN/ISSUE/RISK:
There have been two recent instances where defective stud bolts have been discovered at two sites in North
America - Dow Chemicals facility at Sarnia, Ontario, and the Valero refinery in Louisiana. It is believed these
two instances happened in the past two months
The bolts originated in China and as such, there is a concern that similar stud bolts from the same source
could be present in BG assets and that their presence could affect maintenance procedures and impact asset
integrity.
CIRCUMSTANCES:
From the information available the situation at the Dow facility:
* Three PTFE coated stud bolts failed during bolt-up during make-up of flanged joints - two failed during
tightening with a hand wrench, one failed during tightening with a torque wrench
* The stud bolts were supplied to ASTM A193 B7 with "SUN" stamped on the end. It is understood this
represents Sun Fasteners in Ningbo, China as the manufacturer (see Fig 1)
* The failed studs were all ¾" x 4¾". Other sizes from the same supplier gave no apparent problem
* Cross sectioning of the failed bolts showed transverse voids along the bolt shank (see Fig 2)
* One of the failed stud bolts was tested and broke at a torque of 40ftlb (54Nm) - see Fig 3 Further
investigation on other studs indicated that it could be torque tightened to 150ftlb (203Nm) before failure
* An ultrasonic testing technique was developed to inspect installed bolts to check for similar internal
flaws
* All bolts from this supplier will be replaced and future bolts no longer purchased from this supplier
There are no details available for the Valero incident but it is believed the defective stud bolt was found during
inspection following notification of the incident at Dow.
Other operators in North America have been made aware of these two instances
INVESTIGATION:
Stud bolts supplied to ASTM A193 B7 may be cold drawn, and then threaded before or after any heat
treatment. The manufacturing procedure is not known for the bolts in question and no formal investigation has
been conducted into the reason for the flaws but it is possible that these were induced during an improper cold
drawing process that may also be associated with less than optimal steel making technology.
The extent of testing for these bolts is limited to one tension test per 1500lb (780kg) lot size and as such there
is only limited scope to detect defective studs by mechanical testing.
If poor drawing techniques were a contributory factor, this may lead to excessive hardness above the ASTM
limit and this would be one method of checking for potentially defective components - any such testing would
need to be validated with a procedure qualification using representative materials and hardness testers.
Details of the specific ultrasonic technique mentioned above are not known but it is expected that this would
be a conventional pulse echo technique using specifically designed probes - it is expected that most
reputable NDE companies should be able to perform this service
A torque of 150ftlb is typical for this size of bolt with a high coefficient of friction lubricant and if stud bolts with
these types of flaw have been installed but the gasket has been successfully seated during the initial pre-load
and the flange joint has been operating without leaks allowing for any bolt relaxation, there is probably no
immediate 'risk' that the bolts will fail and cause a release. However, if the bolt is subject to fatigue or to low
temperatures there is an increased risk of failure and this should be taken into account in assessing any
remedial action.
RECOMMENDATIONS:
To minimise potential risks to long term asset integrity, the following actions are recommended:
* Conduct an audit of each asset's procurement policy to confirm whether any stud bolts have been
supplied by Sun Fasteners (all sizes and types, not just ¾" x 4¾" PTFE coated stud bolts). This should
include not only an asset's direct procurement stock but bolts supplied as part of equipment, packages
etc.
* If audit identifies that stud bolts have been supplied from this supplier but not installed, quarantine any
bolts in the stores - in principle, stud bolts from Sun Fasteners should not be used for any new work.
Where such bolts have been installed but the flange joint has not been commissioned, hold executing
further work until a risk assessment is performed in line with that for live plant
* If audit identifies that stud bolts have been supplied from this supplier and installed in live plant, carry
out an assessment of the criticality of each system/equipment item/package where such bolts have
been installed to determine a 'risk' ranking for further in-situ inspection and evaluation - hydrocarbon
and toxic service should be highest priority, studs on non hydrocarbon service should be ranked against
pressure
* Once a ranking has been established, develop an inspection plan to check each flanged joint in the
system/equipment item/package. Where a joint is found with one or more bolts from this supplier but
the joint is sound, a risk assessment should be made whether to leave the flange as-is and replace stud
bolts at next planned shutdown or undertake in-situ replacement
* Where in-situ replacement is undertaken, this shall only be done in full accordance with the
requirements of BGA-ENG-MECH-TS-0012 and OMS Guideline G5011. Note, that wherever possible,
system should be de-pressurised before undertaking any replacement - where ¾" x 4¾" bolts are
present in 4-hole flanges, hot bolting will not normally be permitted although odd bolting may
* Ensure that all contractors working for an asset are aware of this problem and remedial actions
proposed - this will include engineering contractors, flange management contractors and any other third
party carrying out procurement on the asset's behalf
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-03-2008 16:45
"Once a ranking has been established, develop an inspection plan to check each flanged joint in the
system/equipment item/package. Where a joint is found with one or more bolts from this supplier but
the joint is sound, a risk assessment should be made whether to leave the flange as-is and replace stud
bolts at next planned shutdown or undertake in-situ replacement"

So much for saving money buying cheaply made chinese materials.
Parent - - By RBeldyk (**) Date 06-03-2008 16:56
What or where is this copied from? I would like to see a copy of this.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 06-03-2008 16:57
I found it on this ASME forum first catagory.
http://www.onetb.com/forum.htm
Parent - - By RBeldyk (**) Date 06-03-2008 17:07
Thanks, slightly dated November 2006, but well worth reading and remembering.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-03-2008 21:10
Does anyone remember the "China flanges" from the early to mid 1990's? The company I was working with told by their insurance carrier to scrap anything made in China or they would drop our policy. Anything that included any component from China was not covered by their policy. No insurance, no ASME stamps!

Receiving inferior, substandard, or counterfeit materials from China is nothing new. Yet Corporate America refuses to face up to the fact because only a small portion of the material is actually inspected or tested. In other words, they get away with providing the American public shoddy materials and we still pay top dollar for their crap. The chance of getting caught with their pants down are very small and the American public soon forgets the details of the incident. Bolts, toys, foods, fruit juice, raw material, pharmaceuticals, the list is endless. If it is from China, it probably doesn't meet our standards, but who is going to pay to have it tested, surely not the American companies selling to us. They play the "see no evil, say no evil" game until they are backed into a corner by some lawyer and a class action taken by a group of poor schmucks like us that is hurt or killed by the Chinese made garbage.

How many people have been poisoned by Chinese supplied pharmaceuticals? Yet, the argument is used that the public can not buy foreign made pharmaceuticals because "we" have no way to ensure they are safe. Where is the FDA while all this is happening? They are so deep into corporate America's pocket they are ineffective and close to being totally useless until some lawyer representing someone that died follows the trail of bread crumbs it back to a pharmaceutical company. Next to the FAA, the FDA is a waste of the tax payer's money. They both represent and protect the industustries they are supposed to monitor.

The only thing we can do is refuse to buy "it" if it is made in China. It hard not to purchase Chinese goods, but that's what it will take. My wife says I'm living in "La La Land" if I think I can survive without Chinese goods, but I'm doing a pretty good job of buying American if you include South American, Central America, and Canada goods as meeting the "American" classification. See, I can compromise if I have too. :)

End of rant.

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / FYI - DSA BULLETIN 07-03 - UPDATE - AISC RELEASE

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