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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Do welders really need a WPS
- - By toddler (**) Date 12-24-2007 10:40
My fingers are crossed that I am not throwing a stupid question here. I was following the thread on "A-number" somewhere in this forum and noticed that the issue of what amperage to use in the WPS received too much attention. I was tempted to join the discussion but decided to make a new topic out of it thus, my question.

Matter of fact, I have written hundreds of WPS already. In the database that I kept, the total of welders run to over 7,000. They were SMAW welders, tigwelders, etc. These are the welders I have more or less came across up to my present age. I have worked in so many fabrication and construction jobs locally and abroad with internationally known Japanese, American, British, etc clients. On the job, the average number of welders run at 100. Now, here is my point:

1. There was not a single instance that a welder was stopped because he is not using or following the amperage indicated in the WPS
2. There was not a single instance that a welder asked for a WPS for amperage reference

It just amaze me that most of the welders (manual/semi-auto) I have seen doing x-ray quality welds have not even seen what a WPS look like! Well in our case, only the supervisors and the welding engineers hold copies of the WPS. The information is just cascaded down to the foremen with regards to preheat, interpass temp, filler metal for each type of basemetal... but not the amperage!

Am I correct to say that the welders know he is using high or low current by the sound or the look of the weld pool or deposited bead?

Of course it will be different if the procedure calls for a controlled heat input or in machine-assisted welding operations. But for commonly used metals like CS, SS, Chrome-alloys; WPS are invisible to the welders.

So, do welders really need a WPS?
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-24-2007 11:05 Edited 12-24-2007 11:08
We've had similar discussions, and debates several times here in the forum on this very subject.

In practicality, my knee-jerk reaction would be "no, a good welder doesn't NEED a WPS" but that would be an incomplete and wrong answer.  My reasoning in giving this knee-jerk response is as you mention; a "good" welder will deposit an X-Ray quality weld, regardless of what instruction may be provided in his / her WPS.  If the settings listed in the WPS are wrong and sound weld metal cannot be deposited as directed, the "good" welder will adjust those settings to where the weld metal deposits properly.

Is this right or wrong?  Well... maybe sadly, maybe not (won't be the judge and jury here) it is wrong. 

Why? 

Because in our world of compliance and compliance verification, most constructing standards REQUIRE that there be a WPS and further, that the WPS provide INSTRUCTIONS to the welder.  Kind of like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg; or in this case, the "good" welder or that "good" welder that qualified the WPS.  I do agree with you; it seems in most instances, it is the QA/QC, Engineer or Foremen that look at the WPS (and often argue about to it's correctness or lack of being correctly written) and very seldom reviewed by the welder; the very person it is intended for.

I know this response sounds like I'm dancing all around giving an absolute answer, but that's about the best I can do with a response~
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-24-2007 13:55
Very good question Todd,

For the most part, I think a journyman can pretty much figure out what is necessary to make a good weld.  On the other side of the coin. We just had a long thread by a journyman with many years experience who suggested mixing unapproved alloys on code welds to beat porosity....

I think it is important that a welder knows how to weld "with and without" a WPS.

A welder may not need to have a WPS to build a trailer hitch right?  But we also don't want trailers to fall apart on the highway. Its all about competence.

It takes competence to work in accordence with a WPS and it takes competence to work without one.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 12-24-2007 14:43 Edited 12-25-2007 13:11
This question reminds me of the movie "Treasure of the Sierra Madre".  Humpfrey Bogart runs into the Bandit who claims to be a Sheriff.  Bogart asks for his badge and the Bandito says "We don't need no stinking badges".

I have been on many jobs where the QC reminds me of this quote.  When I ask for what WPS the welder is using, or where the copy of it is, the welder says "Whats that?"  "We don't need no stinking welding procedures."  and they continue on - Business as usual!.

"We don't need to chip our welds between passes."
"We don't need to grind our back gouges."
"We don't need to preheat that hot."
"We don't need to preheat all the way through the thickness."
"We dont need to.............."

Remember, the welding machine works perfectly well without a WPS.
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 12-24-2007 15:49
In pipeline construction every welder will have a copy of the procedure(s) being used.
And inspection will have to (at certain intervals) mark out a measured distance on the joint and time the welder, giving them a number for inches/minute.
They'll then put the meters on your leads and record your amperage/voltage numbers.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-24-2007 21:41
All welding procedures I have see give a range for amperage and voltage. After testing a couple of welders and doing one or two procedures I have found the following. Amperage and voltage will track travel speed. If the travel speed is within the procedure, then the vpltage and amperage will tend to be OK. And in the field it is a lot easier to carry a stop watch than an a voltage meter and amperage loop. Of the oh two or three welders I have tested, and the three or four I have followed on a pipeline, they figured they were hired to weld, I was hired to inspect and if I saw saw something wrong with their welding, then I needed to do my job and stop them. When you go to all the classes they tell you every welder should be supplied with the proper procedure. I used to follow that like printing out the testing requirements. After a few years of beating my head against the wall I just do my stump speech before testing and have the book of procedures with me. I tell them where the book is and they are welcome to look. In the last 8 years I have exactly two welders ask to see the procedures and they both had inspected in the past and were angling for an inspector job.
On the test I record the amperage, voltage and travel speed. If the welder is welding out of procedure, then they bust. I have busted a welder or two for almost everything in the book. But I have never busted a welder for welding out of the procedure for amperage and voltage. My experience is in SMAW and GMAW with a little GTAW in field construction for the petroleum industry. Midstream and downstream with minimal upstream work.
And no, this is not a stupid question or thread.
BABRt's 
Parent - By H2oSkidog (*) Date 12-25-2007 02:37
Merry Christmas,I too have never seen a WPS in 12 years at the shop I work at.I have asked,but the foreman seems to think  that its only for the inspectors to see.We change electrode diameters,volts,amps and as long as the welds look good no one seems to care.I dont weld much as a fitter,but sometimes I do and it would be nice to see a wps,the only info ever given to me was a copy of the wire manufactures recomendation for electrical ranges and gases.We do a lot of work for hospitals,schools and public buildings.Plenty of bogus mill certs for stock we use,well anyway a lot of things go on that dont fly if you follow the book to the letter.I hope to leave this place in "08".
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 12-25-2007 03:53
We always had a WPS with us while working nuclear power plants. Rod ticket referenced the WPS you were working on. We had to attach the WPS to the rod caddy or TIG wire tube. The nuclear world may be an exception and not the rule. Dozens of WPS's may be used during an outage and a hundred welders with various certifications to various WPS's. In the highly regulated nuclear industry you do not want to get the wrong rods or wire from the rod room attendant or guilty of welding a process, joint config., wrong backing gas, weld progression, etc. that you are not qualified for. You are responsible to pay attention to detail. You are responsible to check the WPS.

On the contrary we are only using two WPS's for a current project(non-nuke) B31.1 & D1.1. None of the welders need a WPS to make X ray welds in the field.

As a new CWI testing my first prospective welder I didn't give him a WPS or enough verbal or written direction. He ran a DH root pass before I caught him. Gave him another chance because I didn't tell him first. He busted anyway. Didn't take long to see the value of a WPS for testing.

Joe, I thought "We don't need no stinking badges" came from Blazing Saddles. You learn something everyday here, not always about welding.

To answer the question, "Do welders really need a WPS?" I need to borrow and modify one of Al's sayings;  Always Sometimes Maybe Everynowandthen
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-25-2007 03:47
Merry xmas everyone!

From the very start I know and I'd been telling our welding engineers that WPS's are meant to be guidelines or written instructions for welders "as the the code says". But here comes another fact: Most if not all of the welders I've known so far did not have the opportunity to study code requirements. I came from a 3rd world country and most of our welders don't have the proper education to read and comprehend welding standards written in a foreign language. I know this is true with some other countries. Welders are the highest-paid skill in our place (beating even engineers and other professionals) but most of them stop short of completing secondary education. I even had a "no-read-no-write" welder who makes excellent welds. My point is, even if we provide the welders with WPS, they won't be able to interpret it correctly. This is why we need foremen, supervisors, and welding engineers to interpret the WPS for them in the form of "verbal instructions"... variables like preheat, interpass temp, type of electrode/filler, how heat input is controlled,  etc.

If the WPS says heat input=0.5-1.6 kJ, how would they interpret and implement?

If a welder is doing the job on his own then perhaps he should have a WPS on hand.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-25-2007 04:05
toddler, your points are absolutely valid.  Heck, I've been writing WPS for more than 20 years and there's times I still struggle with knowing what the heck belongs where, let alone how I would tell my welders how to use such "instruction."  Regardless, the codes I work with tell me I must provide this information, so that's been a real money maker for me! ;-)  When I was a welder, ohhhhh soooo many years ago... I looked at WPS' but if somebody would have quizzed me on exactly what I could and could not do I would have surely failed!!! 

At the end of the day, I believe there are SOME things on a WPS that may be useful to a welder but most of the code required stuff in my humble opinion is just a legal record of the processes used.
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-25-2007 04:36
Hahaha! I like this one--" ...so that's been a real money maker for me!..."

Amen!

Thanks Jon! Merry xmas!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-25-2007 14:15
Like I've said before, the WPS is useless to the average welder unless the writer keeps in mind that the welder most likely has never read the code, doesn't know what a P, S, or M number is and is looking for information about how to initially set the machine for the electrodes being used, what electrode is called for and what  joint details (with tolerances) are appropriate. Don't forget all the other information that is useful to the welder such as the shielding gas and the flow rates for the shielding gas if one is used. All too often the individual developing the documentation is an individual that has little welding experience, little direct contact with welders, and writes the WPS to meet "code" requirements only. That is a wasted effort and a waste of natural resources.

You can keep the minimalist philosophy in mind if you are writing a welding specification for contract work if you don't care how the work is accomplished. If you need to control the process and if consistency and predictable results are your goals, a well written welding procedure specification or welding specification (for inclusion in the contract) will go a long way in helping you to meet your objectives. The is a fine line between too little information and information overload. I like the analogy of a cooking recipe, if the recipe only lists the ingredients of the cookies (the minimalist approach would be the list of ingredients listed outside the box) the results are not predictable. If the recipe includes the ingredients, the amount of each ingredient, when to blend the wet and dry ingredients together, what temperature to cook them at, and how to test them to see that they are cooked long enough, you will have control over the process and predictable results, i.e., good tasting cookies.

The two schools of thought often collide, do I write a WPS for each specific joint detail (as is often required by state departments of transportation) or a general WPS that covers a multitude of joint details. There is no one good answer. I understand the need for both and when it is appropriate. Most projects and companies have (at least informally) settled on a few typical joint types and groove details. In those situations a general WPS that addresses a limited number of base metal specifications and joint details is adequate. A DOT project where low alloy high strength steels with impact requirements justifies the more detail oriented WPS. An experienced welding engineer or someone with the technical expertise, be they a CWI or SCWI, knows which type of WPS is appropriate for the situation at hand and the type of information that is useful to the welder.

As for whether the welder uses the WPS or not is a kin to your owner's manual tucked away in you car (or truck's) glove compartment. You don't read it until something goes wrong or you are looking for information about the operation of something (like the radio or what type of automatic transmission fluid to add). Once you've read it, it gets put back into the glove compartment until it is needed again. I don't expect the welder to read the WPS every morning  before striking the first arc, but it is appropriate to review the applicable WPS before a new project gets underway so everyone is singing from the same sheet of music. Maybe the solution is to place the WPSs in a binder and hang them in the Men's/Lady's rest rooms where they can be reviewed because there's is nothing else to read while they are sitting there contemplating the day's events. Like owner's manuals, the WPS can be well written, well organized and contain useful information that is referred to often or it can be poorly written, contain no useful information (and still meet code), and it will be ignored by everyone on the shop floor except the one individual that wrote it.

One thing that is often overlooked is to include a training session that covers the WPS and to read it and use the information. I have a subcontractor on a project that paid a consulting firm "big" money to develop a QC manual and welding documentation so they could get their U and R stamp. The consulting firm never visited the facility, never witnessed any of the welding of the PQRs, and simply sent the "bundle" of paperwork to the client. They had a bundle of welding documents that they don't understand, but it looked good for the audit and they were awarded the appropriate stamps. To this day the WPSs sit in the QC managers office collecting dust. They are a waste of paper, but they meet the minimalist philosophy of ASME. It was a rude awakening when they got on my project and I started asking questions about electrode storage, groove details, and the like. They pulled out their paperwork and said there is nothing in their paperwork that addressed my concerns and were amazed that anyone would ask for them or expect them to know what they contained. It has been a long painful education for them. So much so that their QC manager recently attended an AWS seminar and was able to pass the examination after spending some additional time with the books. The music to my ears was when the QC manager said, "Now I understand why you asked so many questions and the importance of the good welding documentation." They are rewriting their WPSs and their QC manual to make them useful to their work force as well as meet ASME  requirements. They have only recently required the welders to sit down and read the WPSs and review the information contained in them. Even the welders have commented that things have changed since being involved with me on this project and the changes have been for the better.

I hear the wife stirring, so she must be getting up. Time to step down from the "bully pulpit" and open up some presents.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Best regards - Al Moore and Family
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-25-2007 14:53
Al; I and many of us have been debating this exact same topic for so many years I couldn't tell you when I first heard it brought up, but I have NEVER heard this situation / question addressed so concisely as you put it when you said:

"whether the welder uses the WPS or not is a kin to your owner's manual tucked away in you car (or truck's) glove compartment. You don't read it until something goes wrong or you are looking for information about the operation of something (like the radio or what type of automatic transmission fluid to add). Once you've read it, it gets put back into the glove compartment until it is needed again."

Although that most certainly AIN'T what the Code bodies had in mind, thats the absolute unvarnished truth, lol!!!

There ya go folks, that's the answer (and I'm buying into it!).

Great answer!
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 12-26-2007 01:26
In my experience with most but not all companies, WPS's were objects to be issued, reviewed, revised, reissued, approved and referred to by various people other than the actual welders doing the welding. Other than in the Navy and one or two contractors I Have never been given a WPS as a welder. As a QC inspector I have on various occasions asked to give a copy to the welders. I was most times denied that otion as that was an "internal" document.

I feel in many parts of the welding industry the WPS being used by the welder is a JOKE!. That of course is based only upon my limited experience.

The format of the WPS could also be revised to provide information to a welder in a manner that is a little better laid out. Many companies stick to the "suggested format" given by codes and limit the ability to transfer the the information to the welder.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 12-26-2007 02:23
Like I said, in my field the welder is given a copy of the procedure(s) he's using as is expected to have those copies in his truck along with a copy of his relevent qualifications.
In (at least some) states with a state pipeline regulatory agency, if you are on an intrastate pipeline that never crosses a state line, it's a violation of the law for the welder to not have a copy in the truck. Some places they will ask for it, and ask several questions to insure the welder has an understanding of it.
It's simple and works pretty well.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 12-26-2007 05:08
as a welding inspector, that "internal document" can cause alot of headaches if the welders fall outside the WPS. i would think you could reject every weld made by the welder that falls out of the essientials on a project. is it worth it?
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 12-26-2007 11:45
I agree. When I was in a position to require welders to have access to the WPS's it was still something that was resisted by Non quality control people. The majority of my work has been in field construction/repair of boiler, pressure vessels ,piping  and shop fabrication of air pollution control equipment. My experience has been limited to companies working in the SE United States so it is only a small protion of the industry. The companies however were the some of the top 10 in the nation for the volume of work done.

The essential variables on the WPS are often time followed. It is just that the information is not transmitted to the welder using the document we spend so much time talking about.

Does the code require a welder have a copy of the wps handy ? :) Or is that a requirement that is often times written into quality manuals ?

Have a good day.

Gerald Austin
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-26-2007 12:17
Gerald, to the best of my own knowledge, the code does not specify that welders have access to WPS' ... again, just speaking from my own experiences, this is an element which has been interpreted by companies, as the codes do state the purpose of a WPS is "to give instruction / direction to the welder."
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 12-27-2007 05:53
you'd be surprised how many welders run out of the paremeters on a WPS,the short time i have been inspecting, out of 14 welders tested, 5 of them i busted for running way under on the voltage.
the thing that gets me, is I hand them a WPS and instructions, 90% cant even follow a Line by Line instruction sheet, and 30-40% cant follow a WPS. I believe in giving a guy a chance but the ones coming in are from tradesmen international, and we pay top dollar for them, so i expect a top welder. if they come in off the street and want to learn, we put them to work, if they cant weld, we still put them to work, and try teaching them.
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-27-2007 06:53 Edited 12-27-2007 09:26
ctacker: In my looong experience with welders, we hire and pay them on how well they can make welds. They are paid for what their hands and sight can do, theoritically not much on the "brain side". They are pretty much different from other crafts like fitters, millwrights, electricians if you get what I mean.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 12-27-2007 15:03
we also Pay according to skill, but when we call a temporary agency (Tradesmen INT.) we pay top dollar, and I expect a good welder!
why pay almost double for a unskilled welder that cant fit?
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-27-2007 07:26
ctacker:

"...5 of them i busted for running way under on the voltage"?

Can you please explain further why?
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 12-27-2007 15:00
The WPS calls for 25-30 volts 200-375 amps on a 3g 1" test plate running 1/16 wire
The welders I test think they need to run as low voltage as possible i guess and try running at
way under 25 volts, i think 17 volts is the lowest I came across so far!
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 12-27-2007 21:37
Here's another can of worms.
A lot of PQRs are qualified in the 1G position which in most cases qualifies you for all positions. The amps and volts for this position are totally different to those required for a 3G weld.
Hypothetically,a welder may qualify a FCAW PQR in the 3G position with 23 volts and 220 amps and it passes all the required mechanicals.
Another welder for the same company qualifies a FCAW PQR in the 1G position with 30 volts and 300 amps and it passes all the required mechanicals. (I have just plucked these numbers out of the sky).
All codes have different amounts of deviation allowed for essential variables so we will hypothetically use the maximum of 20% +/-.
That gives us a range of 19.4 to 27.6 for the 23 volt PQR and 24 to 36 for the 30 volt PQR.
So, if a WPS is written off the 30 volt 1G PQR for 3G the allowable variables are 24 to 36 volts yet it has been proven that a mechanically sound weld can be achieved at 23 volts.
The 20% +/- is a maximum so if the codes stipulate less the range is going to be even more limited.

A workshop environment is reasonably easy to control because you can wander round and set everyones machine and then give them a smack everytime you see them changing dials but if you have a 100 odd welders in a site environment it becomes extremely difficult to ensure everyone is complying.
I am starting to give myself a headache so shall retire to the bar,
Happy New Year everyone,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-28-2007 17:52
Shane,
I have also seen WPSs written to D1.1 for putting down the maximum amount of filler in the 1G position and then mention that it is for all positions....my question to those who have written WPSs like this, how do you maintain the travel speed in the 3G position and stay within the tolerances given in D1.1?
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 12-28-2007 18:01
i find a lot of wps' that do not conform to table 4.5(10/7) and the author has no idea of these requirements
Parent - By petty4345 (**) Date 12-28-2007 19:26
Sounds like the CWIs and engineers aren't happy with the info on some of the WPSs, what kind of instruction are the people who aren't writting the WPSs correctly getting to their welders?
Even more information getting lost in the translation by the welder not having the WPS.
I'm not taking shots at anyone here, everyone makes mistakes, but this is why the welders should get all of the information they need (WPS in hand) to do their jobs within spec.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-28-2007 00:27
You gave them the procedure, had the stump speech and they still did not know what you were talking about. Thats about my experience. Course in SMAW you find out real quick when you are too cold. My experience in the two or three pipeline welders I have tested, they are always WAYYYYYY over the procedure if they are out. ANd the sound and fireworks show kinda give a lot away too.
BABRt's
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 12-28-2007 02:15
Exactly, gotta love the sound effects, dont even have to look at the voltage but do anyway, I have them sign a paper saying they understand everything, and if they make it to the cover passes i VT it and give them a signed statement stating why they failed (or that they passed VT and further testing will be done).
It amazes me that they all sign the form then start asking questions, First thing i tell them is if they want to work,they better follow directions better than they have so far!
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-26-2007 18:01
What a great can of worms!  I was thinking the question is somewhat incomplete.

Does a welder need a WPS to weld?  No.

Does a welder need a WPS on the job site to ensure the welds are performed in accordance with a proven procedure?  Sometimes.

Does a copy of the WPS need to be present on the job to meet company regulations or contractual requirements?  Maybe.

I simply make sure that a copy of the proper WPS is attached to each shop order.  It saves headaches in certain situations.  As a welder, I never had much use for one, although I knew what one was. 
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-26-2007 18:31
This does change as JTMcc has stated to what industry you are working in. In my region, the Public Service Commission DOES come to the job site, unannounced. They do ask THE WELDER for the specific WPS. Then will procede to ask said welder questions like "what amperage did you weld that last joint with". The welder better have a clue or his qualifications will be revoked - by us after a strong recommendation by them. To stay in the game we give each welder a written test for every destructive testing cycle (6 months). This written test is 10 questions and relates to the procedures in question. If they can't interpret the written procedures, and use this information effectivley on the job - gone. If they try to ignore wps requirements and are caught in a non-conformance by internal audits or state - gone.
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 12-26-2007 19:45
My experience is similar to jarsanb"s.
In Arizona it's the Arizona Corporate Commission, other names in different states. When their inspectors come to your jobsite you are required to produce your qualification card or papers. You have to show them your written procedure, and answer a few questions about the procedure.
I haven't done any distribution work for several years but I still have the Joining Procedure book issued by the gas company. It's been revised since then but it has (I counted them : ) 36 arc welding procedures and 8 oxy/acy procedures.
Any welder out of compliance with any of the above was off the job right then and there. The 3rd part inspection would also quiz the welders thru the day on differing aspects of procedure numbers and specifics.
Other people have pretty well answered the original question, I just throw this info out as it relates somewhat.

JTMcC.
Parent - By toddler (**) Date 12-27-2007 07:20
Speaking from my experience, most of our welders by nature of their work are not keen to reading technical documents like WPS. They shy away from the likes of it. There are some who have vision of going further up the ladder that try to get information/ education on welding theory as much as they can. If we really want them to make use of the WPS effectively, then formal training is a must.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 12-26-2007 18:41
can a welder weld without a wps?...yes
can a welder weld and pass x-ray without a wps?...yes
can a weld that passed x-ray, fail on it's first loading due to not following the wps?...yes
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-26-2007 18:48
Cost of a welding hood: 30 - 500 dollars
Cost of a buzzbox: 250 - 500 dollars
Cost of a box of rods 80 dollars
Cost of blowing through a live pipe from using too much amperage: priceless

sorry....couldn't resist
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-27-2007 06:57
jarsanb: In this case I agree. In hot-tapping jobs, everything must be written, and evrything must be followed, and everybody should be there. this is an activity akin to diffusing a bomb.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 12-27-2007 08:53
Hi guys,
When I did my CWI (in New Zealand) one of the questions was describe a WPS and the answer was a document or documents containing the essential and non-essential variables required to ensure "sound" weld repeatability.
If you stay within the parameters outlined in the WPS there is a strong possibility that you will ensure "sound" weld repeatability, if you stray outside the allowable parameters there is absolutely no guarantee that you have got a "sound" (mechanically and metallurgically) weld.
As Hogan has stated, passing RT doesn't mean jack, it could fall apart the first time it is put into service.
A lot of it is also dependant on the industries, some industries require a much higher level of quality than others and therefore they will have more third party inspectors checking everything out.
I hate to think of how many companies I have audited and they have got a beautiful folder full of the most well written WPSs and yet those documents have never been outside of the office. The welders have never seen them.
To add a twist to the story, I spent the first 6 years of my career welding GTAW/SMAW on oil pipes for a sub contractor who was supplying spools to Shell, Mobil, Caltex and BP and never once saw a WPS.
An interesting topic but one I think we will be struggling to come to agreement on,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-27-2007 15:02
To be serious for a minute, the way I see it (which is irrelevant) WPS's can be viewed two different ways from a company standpoint. One is that it is a pain in the butt requirement set by the standard/code you are working under. Therefore the company developes these procedures meeting all the essential variables. Set them aside or in view of management to have available for any audits or whatever when needed for review. The other is to use the WPS as a very useful tool. A communication devise from Quality to Production. Educating the workforce on the information, why some of it is "essential" and how not adhering to those variable could adversley affect the quality. We've been talking mainly about amps and volts - which when using SMAW on carbon steels is kind of a no-brainer. But when talking about the 'continous feed electrode' groups, it's very important. If you allow your welders to indepently adjust these variables not only will you have a huge difference in product from one welder to the next, you'll have a huge difference in product from the same welder from day to day. But that's just talking about amps and volts. The Wps's have a lot of other information in them as well. How you address this info is up to you. You can meet the minimums and be as vague as the code will allow or you can use this as a tools to control your quality, and repeatability of such quality. When a procedure is written with the workforce in mind, and actually addresses the job at hand with useful information, not only is it used - it's welcomed.
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 12-27-2007 15:19
one more thing. Yes, I've also ran into some seasoned saulty dogs that couldn't read. No, I did not run them off the job. But I did make it known to their local that this is unacceptable and that these individuals were to get the necessary education to READ to stay employed. There was a corrective action put into place to insure these results. The authorities that be were informed of the situation, and it was agreed upon that verbal testing would be allowed on a temporary basis. Problem has since been corrected. There is no excuse for an employer to allow this to happen to any of it's members in my opinion and it's also the employers job to fix it. This will be reflected upon the individual, the company and the community.
Parent - - By petty4345 (**) Date 12-27-2007 16:39
We work to many different codes, AWS/ASME/Military.
Without giving a long answer for each case:
Yes, they need the WPS
AWS D1.1 paragraph 5.5 for example "the applicable WPS shall be followed during the performance of welding"
How does a welder follow a WPS if he/she doesn't have it?
Do you actually have time to constantly monitor each welder and provide all of the information that they need from the WPS? (Be honest!)
Your company qualifies a WPS to prove that they are competent to do the research and prove the results, why drop the responsibility at that point?
Th welder may not understand the technical reason behind some of the things on a WPS, but they need to be there and if you write a WPS that gets the important variables expalined in simple terms, there is no reason why you couldn't expect the welder to be responsible enough to follow it.
Yes, it's alot of paper work and training but it's worth doing because it gives you the assurance that things are getting done the way they are supposed to.
Parent - - By David Lee (*) Date 12-29-2007 04:16
Very good points on this thread, We all know that a WPS is set forth for guideance. And how it's produced from a quailified procedure.
To answer your question "Do welders really need a WPS ?"
For the most part welder's will not set down and study the requirements of each base and filler materials they use, They lack the knowledge of configuring
the metalurgical aspect's. I see alot of poeple doing thing's because "thats the way someone else did it".
I think maybe what your seeing is in most cases the QA/QC has this document and producing it to the supervision and welder's,
The supervision is glancing over it only to get invovled when there is a problem, and the welder's are simply doing what they are told.
This may seem like a grim outlook on this issue, But it's like driving a car while your drunk sooner or later you gotta pay the piper.
You can avoid this by reading your WPS.
A WPS as with any of the procedures your customer wishes are set there because of a fail safe way to produce a product that will not harm other's.
It can only work if used properly!
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 12-31-2007 19:18
Don't forget about the calibration of the welding machine.  What good are any of those numbers on the digital display or gauge, if the machine wasn't calibrated?
You can set the dials to what the WPS says, but the machine may be off +/- 10,20 30 amps/ volts.  Just because that's where the dial is set doesn't mean that's what the machine is putting out.   Chris
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-31-2007 21:35
What the machine puts out is sorta irrelevant on a DC machine or welding DC. Take a reading at the lugs and one just behind the stinger. THere will be a voltage drop and if you get one of those jokers with 150 foot of lead, a large voltage drop.
I take my readings 10 feet behind the stingger because it is out of the way and there is not that much voltage drop in 10 feet. This is horse shoes and hand grenades. Close DOES count. If the voltage/amperage and travel speed is in the perameters, everything is good to go. Everyone is makeing a big deal on voltage and amperage. I have caught more guys trying to run the bead straight than ever welding out of procedure on voltage and amperage.
But again, this is SMAW on pipe and plate.
BABRT's
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 01-02-2008 08:48
dbigkahunna,
Greetings from "down under".
Would it not be easier to just write the WPS so the root can be run on straight or reverse polarity ?
It is not an essential variable for Welder Quals and it is only a supplementary essential variable for WPSs so if you have no impacts - no worries.
If they prefer to run the root straight polarity and they can pass RT I can't see the problem. If the change from one polarity to the other was considered metallurgically or mechanically detrimental to the weld then surely it would be an essential variable as per the code.
Am I missing something here ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-02-2008 23:46
API 1104 5.4.2.7 "A change from DC electrode positive to DC electrode negative of visa versa or a change in current from DC to AC or visa versa constitutes an essential varible" And when you see a bead hand run form to top to bottom on 12 inch pipe with out changing rods, you can be sure he is running hot and straight.

In the pipeline world everything is run reverse. If you want to run it straight, you have to qualify a new procedure. You can write the procedure + and or -, but you still have to do the mechanical test for the procedure and then qualify the welders straight and reverst.$$$$$ And the pipeline companys do not like straight, because of the above example. On X42 where bead cracking is not an issue, it really does not make any sense for the skinny beads. But if you set the pipe down on the skids with a skinny bead in it on high grade pipe, CRACK!

In fact on high grade pipe using 70 and 80+ Lincoln recommends running the bead straight to minimize internal undercut. But you need to limit travel speed to 8-10 ipm. And a bronc welder who wants to racehorse and look good to the welding foreman WILL start cranking up to turn and burn. So most of the PL companies keep it reverse where they know they will be getting a fair bead even at the top of the heat range.
BABRt's
  
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 01-03-2008 07:31
Sorry,
Was talking ASME IX, didn't realise you were talking API 1104,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-03-2008 08:51
I STILL think Al Moore said it best, (in my humble opinion), regardless of which code we might be bound by:

"whether the welder uses the WPS or not is a kin to your owner's manual tucked away in you car (or truck's) glove compartment. You don't read it until something goes wrong or you are looking for information about the operation of something (like the radio or what type of automatic transmission fluid to add). Once you've read it, it gets put back into the glove compartment until it is needed again."
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 01-03-2008 19:06
Greetings Jon, and for the most part that statment is true I agree - not that you need reassurance from me. But keep in mind when the state inspectors come out on a job the welder might not notice. When the inspector asks the welder which procedure he is using, the welder can't say, "hmm...let me go grab my book". It's too late. As dbigkahunna would say...he's an ROMF. WPS #'s and the essential variables are expected to be recited without reference. Other non essential things can be referenced.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-04-2008 03:25
Oh yeah, I agree and am most definately NOT promoting that welders keep them as akin to an automobile owners manual, I'm just saying in "most" of the real world, that just about nails it!  Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of who is making the decisions.  Of course, we'd all love it if every welder were an expert in reading and comprehending the WPS, but then a lot of us would be out of work! ;-)

Happy New Year to you!  That was one helluva snow storm we got at home!  My wife tells me our street still hasn't been plowed!!!  So much for Waterford Township tax dollars!

Jon
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 01-04-2008 13:47
lol. I report to Flint remember....the definition of a snow plow is 50 degree weather. Tax dollars? What are those....must be something those rich cities get!
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