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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / flame cut bolt holes
- - By JA (**) Date 12-31-2007 17:43
why can't you flame cut boltholes in the field.......
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-31-2007 18:05
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most EORs will require notification or might want to put their approval on any holes that were flame cut. Some of the job specs have specific language prohibiting the practice. I'd ask before you blow those holes in there. I would assume that "if" you were allowed to pop holes in with a torch you would ream to the correct size?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-31-2007 18:43
Here's my not so off the cuff reply ....AISC's code of standard practice basically says the same thing I did up above. See 7.14 Correction of Errors and 7.15 Cuts, Alterations, and holes for other trades.....

Not knowing the exact condition you have, I figured this might cover most of it....
post back if this doesn't help.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-31-2007 19:51
There are several listed bolt hole types, a standard hole which is 1/16 inch larger than the actual bolt diameter, over sized holes, short slotted holes and long slotted holes. In each case there are specific conditions under which the bolted joint can be classified and assigned load values to determine the number of bolts required to transmit the applied loads or what load can be sustained by the number of bolts in the joint.

In principal, under the maximum load a connection will sustain (at failure) the bolts in a standard hole will be in bearing, i.e., the shank of the bolt will fetch up on the inside diameter of the bolt hole. That is of course assuming the standard bolt hole is used. If the over sized hole or slotted hole is used, the maximum load at failure can be considerably different, thus in certain cases the load per bolt is reduced (again, this is in failure mode).

If the bolt hole is manually burned into the structural member, there is not telling what the shape or size of the hole will be. It is entirely conceivable that only one bolt of the total number of bolts installed will bear against the inside of the bolt hole. Thus the single bolt or the base metal can be overloaded and fail individually rather than a group (each of several bolts sharing the total load).

Most holes burned into the structural steel looks like a wild beaver went crazy and chewed through the steel. The hole is anything but round and is always larger than that permitted for a standard bearing connection.

There are provisions in AISC where a misaligned hole can be enlarged, but it has to be opened up to the next standard size by reaming and a larger bolt installed, i.e., if a 3/4 bolt is called for, a 7/8 bolt must be used in the burned and reamed hole.

The next problem encountered is that most tradesmen have little understanding of the different types of bolts, types of connections, and the various AISC bolting requirements. However, their ignorance of the requirements are what keeps the structural inspector employed and the work profitable. As I tell my contractors, "Your ignorance is my profit." I rarely sympathize because the contractor is being paid by the client to be the "expert" on that aspect of the work. Unless the ironworker is asked to operate the backhoe and install sewer line or the pipefitter is asked to install the high voltage line, I am not sympathetic to their plight, even then, I have little sympathy because they should not have agreed to do work they are not qualified to perform.

Happy New Year - Al
Parent - - By Flash Date 12-31-2007 20:59
Hi JA
flame cut holes also leave sharp notch like defects in the material, which can be a point for crack initiation, as well as flame cutting can increase the hardness of material on the edge
I can not remember the name of the Oil Rig
but there was a major failure that was attributed to uncontrolled flame cutting, someone gas axed a one inch hole in the support leg brace for a take of point, and this is where the failure started from, an entire rig sunk and people were killed, I know this is an extreme case but iti makes a point
R
Flash
www.technoweld.com.au
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 01-01-2008 04:01
My first job after high school was a structural welder at a nuclear power plant before Three Mile Island. The IW GF was old school. While working on the Turbine Building if bolt holes didn't line up he told workers to burn them or slot them. Wrong guy got word of this practice. Every bolt on that building was unbolted, inspected; if torch cut was found the holes were welded solid, NDE, then magnetic drill was used. Hundreds of repairs were made. If you are familiar with a turbine building at a nuclear plant you know that there are billions of bolts and really thick beams and columns. OK not billions, but alot of bolts. This was before drug testing was the rule and there might have been an IW or two that tried an illegal substance in the late 70' early 80's.
Parent - - By rafael Angarita (*) Date 01-01-2008 12:26
In the same way my question is about making 2" bolt holes in 50 mm thicness sheet A-36. what is your opinion?
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 01-01-2008 17:45
If I had access to a mag drill I would drill them that is what we done on truck frames they wouldn't let us blow a hole in the frame. They were new trucks and they said it would void the warranty if we used a cutting torch.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-02-2008 15:20
The answer to your question is, barring job specs you can flame cut

RCSC Specification for Sturctural Joints Using ASTM A325 or A490 Bolts
Section 3 (c)
"The width of slotted holes which are produced by flame cutting,,,,,,"
"For statically loaded connections, the flame cut surface need not be ground. For dynamically loaded connections, the flame cut surface shall be ground smooth."

Granted, this is the Nov 85' version. I grabbed it becasue it was most handy for me right now, and I'm lazy, but I do not believe the language or intent has changed much. This spec can be downloaded free. Check the latest version.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-04-2008 05:28
2004 RCSC

3.3. Bolt Holes
The nominal dimensions of standard, over-sized, short-slotted and long-slotted
holes for high-strength bolts shall be equal to or less than those shown in Table
3.1. Thermally cut bolt holes shall be permitted if approved by the Engineer of
Record. For statically loaded joints, thermally cut surfaces need not be ground. For
cyclically loaded joints, thermally cut surfaces shall be ground smooth.

They have in fact changed the intent and wording from your posted edition. It's only permitted when the EOR signs off on it. Which kicks you back to square one as the EOR could specify cutting a hole in the web shaped like mickey mouse if they wished. They've taken a page from D1.1 and passed the buck to the engineer, who is they are smart, will consider very very very carefully whether or not to allow a flame cut hole (which is inherently rough and likely to have stress risers) with Martensite on it's surface on any bolted connection.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Gerald
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-04-2008 14:47
Thanks Gerald,
You know, I think I've seen some of those mickey mouse holes.

And it light of the new revision it just seems to me the issue has gotten worse not better.
Is martensite a problem?
Then why allow it at all?
If not, then why pass the buck to the EOR?
If its a problem only in certain situations why not clarify(there is after some clarification with static and cyclic loading language)?
If with only certain carbon contents or alloys, why not clarify further?
Certainly there would be some metallurgical generalities that exist that could be a  better guidance to a clarification. Otherswise what criteria does an EOR use?
Is this clarification existent in the dusty annals of tech articles and metallurgy books requiring a little digging?
And while there is no excuse for people not doing their due diligence, there are in fact many people not doing their due diligence.
So is it desirable to poke that grizzly with a stick by insisting they work a little harder to find the info?
Do you want to be standing under the roof of an assembly in which someone said we had to do it cheap and I just didn't have the time nor inclination to investigate any further?
Do we really trust the EOR's that much (not saying that most of them aren't very intelligent, capable, and knowledgeble folks, because I think they are)?
Or do we just not care since its their neck?

Its almost seems like nobody is really sure but most of the guys making the decisions are old and conservative and just not willing to make a determination that people can more easily work with.
Not necessarily a bad thing being old and conservative (otherwise I am guilty of self criticism-hah).
And the bolt spec is no more a cookbook than D1.1. Well, maybe a little.
And this certainly isn't the only issue to manifest in this manner I'm sure.
I just think the whole thing is messy and indicative of a lack of definitive information and committment.

OK, thats my rant for the day. Now the coffee.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-04-2008 15:27
Jeff,
There are some good questions in your post.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-04-2008 15:27
All bow to the EOR, all knowing, all powerful.

Let's face it, the EOR, design professional, call them what ever you like, is the person ultimately responsible for the fate of the structure and drawings they place their stamp on. It is fitting, from a liability standpoint, that they have the final say of what can and what can't be done on "their" project.

Just like doctors, these professionals should know their limitations and should call upon associates that have the expertise they lack. This is real world and that doesn't always happen. Interestingly, most of the "old timers" I work with call in outside experts frequently. The "newbies" seem to be more hesitant to ask for help. We're all human and we are fallible.

In the case of bolt holes, the design professional should know the types of loads the fastener is going to resist. In the case of a column that only has gravity loads (compression only), a hole that isn't perfectly round may not be an issue. However, a snug tight shear connection that is expected to go into bearing under a minimal load may not tolerate holes of different sizes and edge conditions. The design professional responsible is the one individual that can review the conditions and act upon it if necessary. That is why it is important for the inspector to be very explicit in writing the report. Give the engineer all the information so a proper determination can be made of what corrective action is needed.

My reports typically take longer to write than the actual inspection. I include photographs and sketches in my reports to further clarify the job conditions. I am not the least expensive inspector in my area, as a matter of fact, I am probably the most expensive, but the professionals that use my services do so because of the quality of the report I submit. When torch cut holes are encountered, they are included in my report. The bolt is removed to examine the torch cut hole and a photograph of the hole is included in the report. It is then the engineer's responsibility to either accept or reject the hole(s) and to specify remedial action or to require the contractor to submit a plan for remedial work. It isn't my job to argue the point with the contractor.

Nothing is worse than a report that doesn't tell the client something about what was inspected. As an example, one report I reviewed for a legal case simple stated; "inspected 800 inches of weld, all was accepted". There was no mention of what members or connections were inspected! Oh yea, they did include the notation that it was "Sunny and Clear". So what, it was a shop inspection inside, protected from the weather!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2008 21:23 Edited 01-05-2008 21:41
I thought I might show you a typical "field correction" to drive the wooden stake into the heart of the problem of torch cut holes in the field.

Thank the Lord it wasn't on one of my projects! It looks like they may have removed a couple of bolts with a "blue wrench" and installed a new bolt.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-06-2008 17:04
Al,

That looks like a supplementary addition to the farm code.

Gerald
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-06-2008 20:54
No kidding!

Al
Parent - By swnorris (****) Date 01-04-2008 15:30
I'm responding to the initial post regarding flame cut holes in the field that are presumably made with a hand held torch.  In addition to what's already been said, when holes are cut with a hand torch in the field, base material is most likely going to be lost outside the circumference of the required hole diameter (as Al touched on), and oversized holes can have an adverse effect on the performance of the connection.  In fact, they are not permitted in bearing connections in structural applications.  
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-05-2008 04:01
My vote is for poking the bear.
Parent - By David Lee (*) Date 01-05-2008 22:23
AISC specification's on A375 and A490 fastener's.
But judging from the pic common sence should prevail.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / flame cut bolt holes

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