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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe welding
- - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-24-2008 04:05
Hello,

I am looking for some advice with welding pipe.  I am going to a community college and the first semester I did great.  I got certified on Plate in tig, mig, stick, and flux core. I go to class this semester and the pipe is driving me crazy.  I just seem to be doing everything wrong.  I'm just a little worried about it.  I have got my Tig pipe in 2G and 5G looking ok, but my stick looks horrible. I have been putting an 1/8 gap and land on the pipe and every time i weld the thing it either gets to hot and blows a hole in the pipe or it looks terrible. I have been using 7018 3/32 rods to weld.  I am just thinking if I can't get this is there any use in applying for a job welding.  Most companies were I live use the 7018 root and procedure is killing me. 

Thanks
                   
Parent - By weldgault (**) Date 01-24-2008 12:24
More info. Pls.  size pipe, size land, 1/8 gap to wide, amps, Etc.  John
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 01-24-2008 13:46 Edited 01-24-2008 13:51
Well, you just picked about one of the hardest seams and procedures to complete for a beginner.  Yes, you can go out and get a job welding if you can't do this seam or procedure.  7018 open roots on pipe are tuff because 7018 is not a poor fitup rod.  6010's are usually what you want to start off learning with on pipe roots not 7018.  I'm assuming your practicing for what a local place of employment does.  Do they only do this type of welding?  Surely they don't so maybe you can get in doing some of the stuff you know and work up to this.
     With this seam your fitup will have to be spot on.  No slacking on your prep and every piece you bevel and prep must be the same when you are starting out.  I say this because you need to be able to narrow your problems down to a few things and if you eliminate fit up right off the bat then that's one less thing you have to concentrate on.  I'd say you're right on with the 1/8" gap, but the land is a bit thick for my liking (try a 3/32" land).  You will have to run it pretty cold and keep the rod choked so hard that you think the arc might go out. If you see any arc on the outside of the pipe then you will start to get hot and probably burn some holes.  You will probably put the arc out a few times, but that's normal. Hood time will only help you to see what you need to see to put it in there nice.

1/8" GAP  3/32" LAND    70-75 amps maybe colder  Rod angle almost 90 deg to the pipe and adjusting this will help with the amount of penetration you get on the inside of the pipe.  If she starts to keyhole on you with the rod all the way choked then your too hot.
Parent - - By PipeIt (**) Date 01-24-2008 17:12
7018 for a root? That would be a pain, I had an old timer (experienced welder) once tell me to run it in on straight polarity and weld cold, its sounds bad as you can imagine but it fills the gap in like 6010. This was a case during a shutdown no 6010 to be found. Of course I wouldn't reccomend this.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 01-24-2008 17:23
Yes, the 2 best ways to put a root in with a 7018 are either on A/C polarity or straight.  Most Code procedures are done with reverse polarity though because they don't know the hot setup.;-)  A/C actually works better than straight, but you gotta watch it cause that arc goes out like a light if your not careful.  Newer machines will run A/C a lot better because you can control frequency and such.
Parent - By BigRed (*) Date 01-24-2008 19:00
  I agree with what these guys have said.  Run electrode negative for the root, then switch back to electrode positive for the rest of the weld.
Parent - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-24-2008 22:54
That is just the procedure for (TN-Eastman and Flour Daniels) with is the contractor for eastman. Im just getting so mad at the thing.  I put in a root today with 6010 and it was great. Im pretty good with that rod. My instructor told me that most companies are going away from the 6010 rod and im trying my best to get the 7018.  To me it is ridicule's.  Do the companies you all work use a different procedure. I was going to try to stay local but it does not seem to be.  There is a local union i was looking at but ever company around here hats unions.  How is it where you all live.  Thanks
Parent - - By Ringo (***) Date 01-24-2008 20:20
I agree with Kix,that's a hard test,and it is one of the few tests I busted early in my career (TN Eastman).When I finally passed it,I used 3/32 land and made a u-shape at the bottom of the keyhole.it takes alot of practice to get it right.
Parent - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-24-2008 22:56
Ringo how is eastman.  I heard it is a good company but i have heard bad about it to.  What do you think about it.  Thanks for the post.
Parent - - By welderdude (**) Date 01-24-2008 22:02
I think it's insane that they have you learning open root pipe with 7018 only also.  it seems to me that's something they'd have you do AFTER you've mastered all types of pipe welding, and even then, it should be optional.  the companies I've worked for and heard of never run 7018 on the root.  I've seen a procedure for it, and I've heard of only a handful of jobs that require it, but it's definitely not a necessary skill to get a pipe welding job!
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-24-2008 23:24
The open root 7018 seperates the welders form the weldors. Try Kobe 7016 for the root. It was designed for open root welding. Everyone talks how tig will do everything 7018 will. Real world. Riser on a compressor bottle in sour service. Customer needs the riser repaired on site and they need it now. Fourth of July in west Texas. Can you say hot? The air circulating around the bottle is runnig 18-20 MPH on the little wind gauge. Pipe is 6 inch. You cannot build a hooch to keep the wind out. THe weldor made the weld and it passed radiograph and sheer wave. This weld would have been impossiable with tig. Every process has its place.
BABRT's  
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 01-25-2008 05:56
see post "7018 v groove test" under the Technical section. They've got some pretty good tips. When I took it in '81 for a Nuke outage, we weren't allowed the polarity switch-a-roo option. Hmmm... gonna have to try that this weekend in the garage, sounds like the way to go. Definately agree with dbigk...There's welders and then there's WELDORS!!!  GOOD LUCK TO YA
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 01-25-2008 07:41
Tnwelder, from your original post, it seems that your learning to open root with 7018 because thats what the contractors are using at a local plant where you hope to work after school is out? Sooo... your tackling what most of us here would feel is a difficult technique to master. Are you fully confident in your ability to consistently weld 7018 hot, fill and cap to B31.3 in 6G position? 1st, I would get a copy of the WQTR and use the appropriate parameters for your practice (many times QC will preset the machines and allow only minor adjustments). 2nd, Review the tips from both of these threads. Finally, Don't give up!!! Sounds like you already have some tough tests/certifications under your belt (and cert. cards in your wallet) and if your like me, and want it all yesterday......I spent 2 weeks learning to open root 7018 (root after root after root ) and I was more than willing to throw in the towel except there were no other jobs available and I was bound and determined to be Mr. Super Nuke Welder and glow in the dark! Patience, somethings have a bigger learning curve than others. It will all fall into place.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-25-2008 08:15
Tnwelder  all these guys have told you straight on this one....don't beat yourself up about it.  7018 on pipe is one of the bigger skills...I have never known anyone new (experienced welders either) to just jump in and do it...not happening.   It took me quite a bit of nubs just to run good vertical joints that I was satisfied and proud of.....pipe became like a part time job just practicing.  I ain't the greatest, fastest or slickest but if I could learn to do it and pass NDT...so can you....be patient with your self and practice practice practice.  It will be worth the effort in the end.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 01-25-2008 22:44
7018 isn,t a rod i am very practiced with,i had a go at rolling a root,they burned a lot better than i expected.3/32 gap 2.5 mm land. f/j
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-26-2008 02:34
flange jockey"..i had a go at rolling a root..."  If you mean rolling the pipe as you burn it in...thats really not a big deal.  If you did it with the joint in place welding out from bottom up you have got very good talent for not having done it.  Bead looks nice ...I like the flux peeling off too.
Parent - By flange jockey (*) Date 01-26-2008 16:47
tommy i do realize its no great shakes, there is no way my personal ability could get me through 5 or 6g with these rods. talking of the rods and not me,anyone who is accomplished with them i think have a good rod for the job. f/j
Parent - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-26-2008 19:15
Flange jockey that is a nice looking bead inside that pipe.  I took some advice from the forum and practiced the 3/32 gap with the 7018 and 6010. The 6010 looked good but like I was saying the 7018 needs some practice. I appreciate the post and am going to keep practicing.
Parent - - By BigRob40 (*) Date 02-01-2008 15:56 Edited 02-01-2008 15:59
Nice bead flange thats what we call a banana peel! here in N.Y. Dude!
Parent - By flange jockey (*) Date 02-02-2008 18:17
thanks rob ,i get that effect quite often on the cap
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-26-2008 23:27 Edited 01-26-2008 23:30
Word of caution. passing NDT is not a promise of a good weld. NDT will tell you if you have a discontinuity or do not. It typically does not tell you much more except for some advanced UT and ET techniques. Fracture toughness, dilution rates, hardness/brittleness, lot of things NDT is blind or semi blind to. So it's always better to follow a WPS thats been qualified as metallurgically sound for welding practice.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-27-2008 07:37
yep thats 100% true ...but if your going to test every joint what else have you got.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-27-2008 12:23
You've got a WPS with acceptable welding parameters, the codes make an assumption of that, which is why they state upfront (they being most codes) all welding to be done with an approved WPS. With that assumption in place, it goes to required NDT (if it's required) which can pick up breaks in the continuity of the weld and or materials. Assuming NDT comes back clean as performed by qualified procedures, you then have performed reasonable due diligence and have it on paper to show the lawyers and courts if the weld fails for some unknown reason down the road.

If the chain is broken anywhere in that link, whomever broke it has opened themselves up to liability. After a failure; as a welder etc it's hard to explain why you didn't follow your wps or why you were welding without one; or as an NDT tech, why you didn't follow your procedures or were without one. The courts and lawyers don't care about the foreman's need to get the unit back on line, or how much it's costing a manager for some piece of equipment to be down for repair. Lot of people don't get caught doing such things, but all it's going to take is one time getting caught out to cost a company and or an individual a lot of money in the best case, and jail time in the worst or some of both.
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 01-28-2008 18:49
Gerald,

That was very well written.  Sometimes it is easy to forget how much of a team effort our work involves and that cutting corners can come back to be very costly.

John
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-29-2008 02:24
John,

Good point, it is a team effort, and there is no "I" in team. Production "heros" have a bad habit of costing more in the long run than they save in the short term.

Gerald
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-26-2008 23:24
A side note, I've no doubt your going to master this. You've shown the gumption and will simply by looking up this forum and asking the questions you need to ask. Answered very well by some experts at that. Don't let it get you down, you'll get it, I'd be damn near ashamed to tell you how long it took me to get it back in the day when I first learned.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By am0resperr0s1 (*) Date 01-28-2008 02:02
Hey PAL! Best Recomendations for a Root Pass! Is to use 6010 1/8 welding rod! and 7018 1/8 for cap!
Parent - - By welder5354 (**) Date 01-28-2008 04:29 Edited 01-28-2008 04:42
Check out this link:
Make sure you read all the post because it involves both 2" and 6" pipe.
I teach welding 7018 root & fill daily and the welders would rather do 7018 first pass as opposed to 6010.
If you can do a nice 7018 first pass, it will stand the root bend better than a 6010 or 6011.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=42785;hl=welder5354#pid42785
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-28-2008 13:37
This has just answered why you have and need to follow a WPS. Who cares what the welder likes to weld with? If you are welding to FC then sure, weld with what ever you like. But if you are welding on a X60 XCountry pipeline you will be using 70+ all the way. No welder should have a favorite welding rod unless they are going to be real specilized. Different projects require different rods due to diferent service. You would not want to use 70+ in high temp high cyclic sour service. IN this case it would be 7018 all the way or a tig bead and HP wiht 7018 fill and cap.

When teaching future welders you educators need to stress to the future little darlins, in all code service the rulse must be followed. THe companies who make the welder decide which rod and process to use beacust they are too cheap or lazy to do their own engineering are doing a dis-service to thneselves and the welder who has to live with their decision.   
Parent - - By welder53 (*) Date 01-28-2008 18:37
Hi dbigkahunna, i wasn't implying that I only teach 7018 root pass.  We teach tig/gmaw/fcaw/smaw with f3, etc. 
We have over 20 different procedures in place.  The welders are dispatched depending on what the customer requires.
One paticular oil refinery will only allow 7018 for it's root pass with smaw.
It's like you stressed, welders do have to follow procedures and that's very important.
dh
Parent - - By banshee35 (**) Date 01-29-2008 02:14
is this wps for all "in" plant piping, especially around heaters and such, excluding storage tank make lines and loading lines for rail car and truck? or everything in side the fence?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-29-2008 02:18
The WPS applies anywhere it's a code weld. If it's API 1104, 570, 620, 653, or ASME B31 series, Section VIII, section XI, or D1.1, D1.5 whatever.
Parent - - By banshee35 (**) Date 01-29-2008 02:23
thats not what i was asking. i  was asking about the 7018 root, and hot pass. Where i work we run 5p root, hotpass and 7018 cap on everything, in plant process piping and make and load lines.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-29-2008 02:28
"is this wps for all "in" plant piping, especially around heaters and such, excluding storage tank make lines and loading lines for rail car and truck? or everything in side the fence? "

That was in fact what you were asking. A qualified WPS is required by API 570, as is ASME B31.3 if your putting something new in. Unless your welding on the dog house or a fence post, chances are it's a code weld in a plant.
Parent - - By banshee35 (**) Date 01-29-2008 02:34
to quote welder53
"Hi dbigkahunna, i wasn't implying that I only teach 7018 root pass.  We teach tig/gmaw/fcaw/smaw with f3, etc. 
We have over 20 different procedures in place.  The welders are dispatched depending on what the customer requires.
One paticular oil refinery will only allow 7018 for it's root pass with smaw.
It's like you stressed, welders do have to follow procedures and that's very important."
i was asking this guy if 7018 was required on everything i mentioned. yes everything I do is code. We just don't do it with 7018 all the way out. not trying to be ornery or anything. I'm working on some make lines and load lines currently and the are in the tank farm. 7018 all the way would be a ***** in some positions.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-29-2008 02:43
Ok, if your working to a WPS which is tested and designated to use, I wouldn't worry about it If I were you.
Parent - - By banshee35 (**) Date 01-29-2008 02:49
you're not getting what I'm inquiring about. I was asking welder53, who quotes "One paticular oil refinery will only allow 7018 for it's root pass with smaw." if everything on plant property is welded this way, tank farm piping and all, or just process piping inside units. i'm just asking a simple question.
Parent - - By welder5354 (**) Date 01-29-2008 04:05
Yes, banshee35 everything inside the plant with the smaw process is welded with 7018 first pass.
No f3 (6010 or 6011) is allowed in that plant.  The welders are tested to ASME section IX code.
If you want to know where the plant is; It is the come-by-chance refinery in Newfoundland/Canada.
Any contractor or welder caught using 6010 will subjected to dismisal.
dh
Parent - By banshee35 (**) Date 01-29-2008 12:41
thank you. that is the answer i was looking for!!!
Parent - - By welderdude (**) Date 01-29-2008 01:37
Do you use 3/32" or 1/8" 7018 for the root?  I'd think 3/32, but ya never know...gotta ask!
Parent - - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-29-2008 03:53
Welder dude I have been using the 3/32 rods with a 3/32 gap. It seems to be working fine. I have been practicing the 6010 a lot in the last couple of days, it is looking very good. I have been welding uphill and downhill.  I am primarily practicing downhill.  There is a company Atmos Energy hiring in my town and the procedure is 6in pipe 3/32 gap and 1/8 land with 6010 all the way out.  I like the procedure and like the hours. I'm going to keep practicing and see what happens.  Thanks for the help.
Parent - - By 52lincoln (***) Date 01-29-2008 03:57
where you located?both my brothers work for atmos energy.
Parent - - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-29-2008 03:59
Im and locating in Johnson City TN.  How do they like Atmos.
Parent - By 52lincoln (***) Date 01-29-2008 04:01
they seem to like it.they are both fixxing to test out for them also.
Parent - - By 52lincoln (***) Date 01-29-2008 04:03
you contracting out,or single hand?
Parent - - By Tnwelder (**) Date 01-29-2008 04:08
Probably contracting out. I know i will have to go on the road for the company if I get hired. I think i would like the company. I have heard a lot about them and have talked to the welding engineer for the my district. He seems to like me so lets hope for the best.
Parent - By 52lincoln (***) Date 01-29-2008 04:16
well man,good luck.hope everything works out for ya.
Parent - - By welderdude (**) Date 01-29-2008 22:49
what's the difference between contracting out and single-hand?  I've seen that phrase used in other places and been wondering what it is.  a welder that welds with one hand?  ha!  a welder who also fits and works by himself? 
Parent - - By 52lincoln (***) Date 01-30-2008 02:51
the difference is that single hand dont supply nothing(company man)contractors supply it there self
Parent - By HandHWelding Date 01-31-2008 13:34 Edited 01-31-2008 19:13
To Everyone.... Looking for pipeline to work on here in Texas (Houston, Beaumont) area.  Does anyone know of pipelines going in, or anyone hiring right now? Just got home from Wyoming (It's cold up there) Thanks! Any information would be appreciated.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe welding

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