Level III UT guys doing NDT

Date 02-08-2008 22:58

I'm a one man operation with my wife as the President of the company.

I use the ASNT ACCP Professional Level III program for the purposes of the written tests and the practical by another Level III.

My wife "signs" the certification document as an officer of the company and it is backed up by the ASNT ACCP certification which can be verified on-line.

Best regards - Al

By g32141

Date 02-09-2008 04:23

If you are the level 3 then you can do field jobs.

Did you actually go and sit at an exam center and do the test? You actually need to do a practical at the exam place you do your written part. They don't tell you that though do they?

You should be able to add on and go take it the next time it is near you.

The ACCP thing is confusing because of the grandfathered card holders that just submitted paperwork to get it.

It has cost me delays working in Europe and South America because they did not think it was ISO compatible. I was already there working for a few weeks when this surprise popped up and I was shut down. I doubt yours is ISO compatible since you didn't take the practical exam.

You should still be able to work in the states no problem. Your problem is working abroad. Your cert won't pass muster if you need to work abroad. Most places won't accept you without a practical exam. Some places you actually need to test on different types of welds. Plate pipe nozzle, etc. Every job I have been on if they accept your cert you still need to take a practical with them to qualify to work on their job and the examiner usually has a time and irritation limit. Even if you pass and rub him the wrong way forget it.

I hope this helps

By 803056

Date 02-09-2008 15:51

I grandfathered in for a couple of the ACCP certs, but I had to have taken the ASNT Level III examinations and I had to document my experience. That's why I also did hands-on practicals with another Level III.

In the cases where I didn't grandfather in, I took the actual ACCP examinations. The practical portion of the examination was to write a procedure based on the method and a "specification" provided as part of the examination. Again, I used another Level III for the practical hands-on examinations.

Most of my clients have been using my services for many years and the new clients I have came to me through "word or mouth". I don't advertise in the phone book or anywhere else. I work nearly everyday, so I figure I must be doing something right.

Any certification is only as good as the people performing the work. I tend to believe our society is getting "certification" crazy. Every organization out there, from the Red Cross to The Association of Potato Peelers wants to have a certification program to make money for their organization and to set their members apart from the rest. I think the public and our professional organizations have to be careful with the numbers and types of certifications made available. I believe there is a point of saturation where the system will be so specialized that it will collapse because there will not be sufficient numbers of "certified" people to do the work.

As a case in point, I read an article about the shortage of NDT people in the nuclear industry. I don't work in that industry because their certification process is so specialized that it is not economically reasonable to pursue that work. I don't doubt I can pass their training and examinations, but the pay is not commensurate with the work and the travel involved. Likewise, the aerospace industry has NADCAP certifications for the NDT houses that work for that industry and then they have to be audited and pass examinations administer by each major manufacturer. Unless you specialize in that industry, it is simply too time consuming and expensive to jump through the hoops lined up to challenge your abilities and operations. I have several clients that have dropped their NADCAP certifications because the payback and volume of the work doesn't make it worthwhile.

I turn away work that involves inspecting oil storage facilities. There isn't enough of that work in this area to pursue API certifications. When I receive a call for that type of work, I tell them what I do have for certifications and if it good enough for them I take the job, if not, they have to keep making telephone calls.

I guess it boils down to specialization, but a specialist is someone that knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing. I fear that that is the way some of these certification programs are headed.

Gotta go!

Best regards - Al

By CWI555

Date 02-09-2008 21:43

"I guess it boils down to specialization, but a specialist is someone that knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing. I fear that that is the way some of these certification programs are headed"

Amen to that.. Not to long back, I showed a level II AUT guy an RF waveform. He informed me it was a "TOFD" signal. When I replied it was a radio-frequency (RF) representing the negative and positive half waves, I was told I was an idiot. This individual had no clue what to do with it outside his "speciality".

This specialization business is as you say, going to kill the industry by creating educated morons who are helpless outside their little window of the world.
Be it D1.5 (DOT requiring experience), Section XI, NADCAP, API, it will all be the same end result. The birth of a bunch of certification programs that leave the techs bound in ignorance.

Regards,
Gerald

By 803056

Date 02-10-2008 04:00

Certification programs are beneficial if they serve a market driven need. Certification for the sake of certification alone doesn't add value.

I like the concept of a basic "generalist" certification program that provides or demonstrates a certain level of ability and understanding of the subject matter. The certification can then be enhanced by expanding the subject matter mastered. That's why I like the AWS QC1 program. You have the "generalist" CWI and SCWI certifications to which you can add various endorsements that build upon the basic certification.

Other programs are so specialized they tend to limit the number of people with the certification to the point where they can not serve the needs of the market place in a timely manner. In some cases the programs are intended to exclude the general practitioner. Ultimately they fail because they are too specialized and serve the needs of a very small market. Because the demand is limited, people can't justify the expense of obtaining and maintaining the certification and the program withers and dies. I guess that is as it should be in a market driven economy.

Best regards - Al

By CWI555

Date 02-10-2008 17:31

I do believe some limited specialization is called for. However, I do agree it's gone to the nth degree. At one time I've had AUT, Delta, TOFD, Phased array, etc training, and throughout it all the one thing that remains constant is the basic physics and mechanics of UT. Boil all the bells and whistles away and it's all the same.
What disturbs me is the prevalent dependence on the machine rather than the human. Companies are spending reams of money training for these specialized applications and in the process, are forgetting the basics. For that reason, there are many who call themselves UT Level II's and some III's who without the machine, are totally lost. I equate this to modern computation. Even the people building the computer are relying on code written 20 and 40 years ago that they do not understand. All they know is this program works for a eprom, or other such thing. Ask them to code from the ground up, and they couldn't do it. It all goes back to the basics, and sadly, that is dieing at a faster and faster rate with the specialization/exclusionary certification mentality being the one twisting the knife in the heart of it all.

That in my opinion is true across the board. This recent push for API certs, the PDI program, and all others of their ilk will eventually drive the rates down when the market is saturated with people who are highly specialized in a limited market place. Their market may grow for years, but eventually it will suffer from supply and demand just like every other market. The more there are of them, the less they will make, and having spent all the time and resources in that specialization, they will wake up one day realizing it's the "only" market they fit in. A good example of this is what happened after 911 to the aircraft industry NDE techs and Level III's.

A knowledgeable general practitioner can fit in nearly any market, and goes back to the basic theory of diversification. Between the Tortoise (generalized) and the hair (specialized) history has shown slow and steady wins the race.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Gerald

By 803056

Date 02-10-2008 17:45

Well said.

Al

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-10-2008 19:48 Edited 02-10-2008 22:30

I have to disagree with this view espically toward the API programs. If you look at the number of total inspectors and the increase over the last five years it is almost flat. In fact API is looking for a way to address what is to be done in the next 2 cycles whan a lot of the beginning 510 inspector begin to hit retirement age. If the knowledge and skills these guys posess go away. a BUNCH of industry knowledge is fixing to have to be re-discovered. I firmly believe that uppermanagement incompetence and fixation on the most work for the lowest cost and to be sure the people you do hire are treated as second class workers is dooming the United States petroleum/refining industry. Why spend money to train and utilize qualified workers when the whole thing can be done offshore whit acceptable industry death loss for much less $$$.

Do not kid yourself. While management will always say the employees are their #1 resource, if the cost of that resource gets too high they will look for a cheaper supply and if a new resource can be found, they will start using that and get rid of the one they have now.

Our business schools have turned out a bunch of plain stupid managers who equate certification to experience. I have several certifications and have been in the inspection business form many years. However, if one of these management morons is looking for someone with 20 years experience with API XXX and AWS/CWI they are in shock someone would demand a 6 figure salary. So API/AWS/ASNT/NACE comes up with these "experience" requirements. A company give a 25 year old with 1 year experience their blessing and notirizes the experience, sends the worker to Code West, they pass the test and they put the dummie out for 35 and charge the client 100 and everybody is happy. The company gets to cover thier butt they are hiring nationaly certified individuals, the inspection company gets to bump its bottom line because uit can charge more and the certifying organizations get to add the $$ to their bottom line and puff how they are helping the industry. Everybody makes money and they all give each other warm wet fuzzies.

BABRT's

By CWI555

Date 02-11-2008 02:47

Well, there are a few things we can agree on. A lot of current upper management couldn't find their butts with both hands, a road map, and a flashlight. The current mentality is to focus on the latest and greatest scheme for management while forgetting the "basics" of good customer service, a quality product, and a happy workforce. Now its more like You got what you asked for, it's good enough, and screw em.

However, you've made the point for me with this sentence:
"A company give a 25 year old with 1 year experience their blessing and notirizes the experience, sends the worker to Code West, they pass the test and they put the dummie out for 35 and charge the client 100 and everybody is happy. "

That is exactly what is going to happen to API, to AWS, and multiple others. I meet a CWI a couple of years ago that was 23 years old. Now with the 5 year experience requirement, that makes it kind of tough. This same kid was carrying a 570 cert. He was bragging about "making bank". I asked him what making bank was and he says to me, "don't tell anyone but I am hitting 30 and hour". Ok.. that's great for him, but when I asked what his background was he clammed up after mumbling something about UTT and working at his dads shop. I mean no offense to the younger generation, but 23 and acting like he's been around the world?? 5 years earlier he was going to the senior prom and dreaming about getting the 50 cent raise to head fry guy at McDonald's. I find it very very hard to take someone like that serious, card or no card. This kind of person is the vanguard of a wave of new kids who will displace those high paying old salts while the managers laugh all the way to the bank. He studied just enough to get past the test, and that was it.

One thing it won't change is this:
Unchecked greed is the root of the problem. There is nothing wrong with being a bit greedy or asking what your worth either as a company or an individual, but without a dose of humility, integrity, and honor everything else is a moot point.

By Bill M

Date 02-14-2008 14:06 Edited 02-14-2008 17:39

I have an ASNT Level III in UT. (by ASNT examination).

In order to do AWS D1.1 Ultrasonic weld inspection, and in accordance to the Code, I need to be qualified to level II (which has specific performance requirements). So do you level III's out there have to hire another level III to give you the level II practical test?