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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / 4130 tig rod storage
- - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-09-2008 01:31
Ok after throwing away literally thousands in rusted up tig rods.....we finally convinced them to get us a small oven just for 4130....now as far as I know....there is not really a storage procedure recommended for bare 4130 filler other then a low moisture condition.   So my question is whats a safe temp for storing this material ....shooting from the hip I say about 120 degrees and we will be fine.  Thats all we are going to put in the oven as its the only material we use that can oxidize so rapidly.

Thx
Tommy
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 02-09-2008 05:38 Edited 02-09-2008 05:49
Not that this is totally applicable, but I keep something in my gun safe called a goldenrod dehumidifier.
Its just a metal tube with a heating element inside, that keeps the safe only a couple of degrees above the ambient temperature outside of the safe, and it is remarkable for preventing rust.
Basically, if there is any air exchange with the air outside, the air inside the container will be the same relative humidity, at the same temperature, but raise the inside temperature just a few degrees (relative to ambient), and the RH will drop significantly.  Any heat at all will be better than none. 
A safe temperature answer to your question though depends on your outside environment. 
If you know a safe RH range (in your case, an acceptable maximum humidity), then Google for a psychometric table.
As an example:
If your ambient temperature (dry bulb) is 70F, at 80%RH, your wet-bulb is 66F, so heating to 83F would bring you back down to 40%RH.

Worst case weather scenario:
It gets cold overnight, and your metal cools down.  Then warm humid air hits in the morning.  Before your metal has warmed up, it may be below the dew point, and you will get condensation (just like how some windows fog in the morning).  That's the absolute worst for corrosion, and just a little bit of heat keeps the condensation away, and you out of the danger zone.

Then again, I also keep my guns with a 2lb box of silica-gel designed to dry a closet, but that's really just a belt and suspenders.  Hey, c'mon, nothing's too good for -my- guns.   :)
I've also heard that VCI treated storage (like VCI treated paper wrappings, or plastic bags) can prevent corrosion, without the need to clean before welding, as the inhibiting vapors do not leave behind enough to make a difference.
I keep a VCI cardboard chip designed for fishing tackle boxes in all of my tool box drawers and feel that it helps in the nasty humid Long Island summers, but I also spray many of my tools with gun oil, so its hard to tell what works best.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-10-2008 05:51
I have one of those to. They work great with or without the Silica. Would probably work for this application as well.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-10-2008 05:47
I can't see that the temperature willhurt the rods any, and at that temp they sure won't condense any moisture. How low can You set the rod oven?
Parent - By swnorris (****) Date 02-11-2008 14:12
Tommy,

You should be fine at 120 degrees.  100 is adequate enough to avoid moisture buildup, but the manufacturer's recommendation should be reviewed.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-13-2008 06:21
My feelings exactly Dave, but since I was not present and had no input on the order....I do not know the temp range.  I have seen some that go pretty low in days gone by.  

Thx all!      Scott I rekon I need to shoot a call to Harris and see if they can give me a range/time guideline. You got a point.
Parent - - By Bonniweldor (**) Date 02-13-2008 02:54
The "moisture buildup" you want to avoid is condensate, or dew, however fine, forming because the temperature of the metal is at or below the dewpoint of the ambient air.  If you are in a humid area, eg the Gulf, I would use 150 F min. to have a good margin of safety.  We had issues once when employees were using the rod oven to warm their lunches; (No Comida!).  If near salt spray, more extensive protection is needed.  Salt deposited on the surface is hygroscopic and will take moisture from the air more or less independent of any dew point. 

And regarding such as 4130 or any other hardenable low alloy, any rust on the surface is itself hydrated and can contribute undesirable diffusible hydrogen to the weldment.  The rod metal must be kept absolutely clean of any deposited or corrosion byproduct contaminant.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-13-2008 05:55
Bonnieweldor: You mention the guys warming their lunches -  A rednrck buddie of mine was "drying" the wet desicant cartriges from the plasma cutter in the old refrigerator with the light bulb that He used for rod storage. This was in a village on the Pamlico Sound in North Carolina. The humididty is generally high and the sound water brackish.
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 02-14-2008 21:20
i am curious:
Is this tig rod really bare AISI 4130 steel? 
Did you say that Harris make the wire?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-15-2008 09:57 Edited 02-15-2008 10:02
If I recollect the standard is ams but I'll check on that.........yes and its expensive as hell....you can get it in 1/16,3/32/, and 1/8...I assume you can get it in .025 but we have not asked for it.  AND yes Harris is the supplier.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 02-15-2008 15:56
Hello Tommy, your post on this topic has been good to remind a lot of folks of many of the small nuances that can relate to the welding industry. The majority of this post has been about the effects of moisture on the bare 4130 rod. Dew points, the use of dessicants, proper heating levels, and a few other comments I believe, all good stuff. Reminded me of a situation that I was around many years ago and could possibly become applicable in this situation too. I used to fill agricultural and industrial tires with fluid, this "fluid" as it was referred to, was actually a combination of water and calcium chloride. A couple of interesting things about calcium chloride, when you combined it with water it had a very serious chemical reaction, it would heat to temperatures that could scald your skin if you weren't careful. Another thing that could be noted when you work around this stuff was if you spilled any of it on the ground, in very short order you might see a wet spot or even in some cases a puddle of water form. I was told that this was due to the chloride portion(a salt), that could take the moisture out of the air and attract it and combine with it. I would venture to say that in certain geographical areas there is a possibility of having salts or chlorides present in the air right along with the relative humidity. This could also have the effect of coating bare electrodes in storage and might lend to a practice of carefully wiping down and cleaning these filler metals before using them as well. Just a little food for additional thought. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 02-15-2008 16:24
Calcium chloride is highly hygroscopic.  Most salts are to some degree, but CaCl2 is an extreme example.
Its actually used to remove moisture from the air as a desiccant, and if left open, will eventually end up completely liquid, even in an arid environment.
A cup of CaCl2 left in the bottom of a sealed container (such as one used for rod storage), would probably be more effective than silica get, but is not easily reusable via heating.
Solid CaCl2 left on metal, will leave behind a briny puddle that is highly corrosive.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-15-2008 17:06
Hello rlitman, thank you for the much more detailed description of calcium chloride. Regards, aevald
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / 4130 tig rod storage

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