One setting welder

Date 02-26-2008 15:03

Hello jmdugan10, the more specific you can be about the situation here, the better the likelihood that the folks can help you out. Welding process? Type and diameter of electrode? Machine polarity? Type and thickness of material? Welding position and type of weld joint? Any of this information will better serve the answers that the folks from the forum will be able to supply to you. Look forward to hearing more. Best regards, aevald

By js55

Date 02-26-2008 15:23

Are you experiencing porosity undercut and cracks?
If so, are these welds being rejected?
Are your welders operating within the WPS?

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-26-2008 15:46

It's not that my welders are producing these indications so much that I want to warn them that the current practices that they are using "can" produce them. In the fast paced atmosphere that we are working in my welders are running around putting patches on structural welds, piping, tanks, etc. Most of which is non-code work, but the only thing my client knows about codes is that they are really expensive books. I'm sure that they have pressured my welders from time to time to weld on pressure piping and vessesls without my knowledge. I'm trying to fight the fires that my client will allow me to fight and protect my companies R stamp at the same time.
As far as the process SMAW current: DC polarity: RP.
WPS...well unless I know what they are wleding on I can not provide them with the necessary WPS. Unless it's a planned job, which rarely happens, I'm left trying to find my welders in the plant. I guess I should note I have only been on site since 12/26/07 so I'm still learning all of hiding spots.

By js55

Date 02-26-2008 16:13

I have to be honest. As yet you haven't convinced me of the necessity of changing their amperage. How hot is hot?
You say that you have no discontinuities. And you're working to an R stamp so I am assuming some form of visual and volumetric inspection.
If you're not finding anything????
Also, if you have an R stamp you have to have WPS's. If they're violating them reject the weld. How long does it take to walk past a power source and notice its parameters?
The other thing is, if they're hiding, if their consciously trying to circumvent you, and management doesn't care, I think you're doomed. If you don't have management behind you, you have nothing.

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-26-2008 16:36 Edited 02-26-2008 16:40

You're preaching to the chior! ;)
It's not my managment it's the client. These guys have deep pockets and political influence enough to make OSHA, EPA, the fire marshal, etc. look the other way. I'm dealing with the good ole boy system from hell here. I'm just protecting who I can, and fighting the fights that come my way. The coruption goes to deep for one CWI to fight.

It doesn't matter what these guys weld on they set it to 90 and weld away with no thought as to material, or thickness.
I guess what I really want to know is what are all the problems that can stem from to high of an amperage setting? Other than what I listed previosly.

By js55

Date 02-26-2008 17:41

The best help I can offer is that the solution your attempting is like wizzin on the towering inferno. You have a big decision to make.

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 02-26-2008 18:00

Wizzin on the towering inferno.

Winner.

I started here a little less than a year ago, and the attitude here was (and is, in some places) "We've always done it this way. Why change?" I have been chipping away at it a little at a time. And this is a small company, where I have the Boss behind me all the way.

I'd say you're in trouble there. I spent a long time in the military working upstream against that Good Old Boy system. Nightmare. So I ask myself, what would I do in that situation? I'm somewhat of a nonconformist like that, so I'd probably start dropping red tags everywhere and let the bosses sort it all out. I assume they hired you to get something done and not just purdy the place up. That's my way of thinking. Probably not quite 2 cents' worth. ;-)

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-26-2008 18:28

All I know is to do things by the book. The codes are my friends. My current site supervisor was promoted from the position that I have now. He had a worse fight than I have now. He actually has made some progress with this client, so like you I plan on chipping away at them.

Two people died three weeks ago due to a HVAC unit that caught fire and dumped CO into a lab. A month before the HVAC unit was sighted with a Safety Observation Report stating that it was operating abnormally. The client said the unit was working fine! OSHA has been on site conducting interviews. That was a week ago and I have not heard anything since. It's sad and scary to say, it's going to take an event like BP Texas City for any action to be taken. This place has OSHA PSM products, the largest amount of amonia in the U.S., hydrogen, alcohol, to name a few. No inspection program exsists. This place is a time bomb. I've thought about being a whistle blower, but I'm not sure I want to get that involved.

By CWI555

Date 02-26-2008 20:36

Not trying to be a smart A** here, but it's situations such as yours that test the moral and ethical fabric your made of. No one can tell you what to do in a situation like that without sounding self rightous. I don't think your going to find answers to your situation without, until you have settled what your convictions are within.
Something to consider.

Regards,
Gerald

By aevald

Date 02-26-2008 17:55

Hello again jmdugan10, I can see where you are coming from, at the same time you will likely have a hard time making any changes as a result of what you will likely hear about using "too much" amperage. Some of the obvious problems associated with this could be excessive penetration or burn through and depending on type of material and a myriad of other things this may or may not be an issue. Where it could be an issue: if they are applying patches and are burning through there is the possibility depending upon application or use that they could introduce eddy related erosion of the pipe from that point, there is also a possibility in an instance such as this, that suck-back could be introduced causing a reduction in thickness, in certain situations this could possibly lead to failures. If the material requires backing for protection from atmospheric contamination, as is the case with many exotic metals or stainlesses, this could be another issue where excessive heat input could cause some serious issues. There are likely numerous examples of these types of problems that many others could elaborate upon better than me.
The rods themselves: too much amperage and the fluxes can be damaged and cause problems with proper weld bead shielding and deposition, excessive spatter, irregular bead contour, and undercutting along the edges of the bead can also be encountered. This one is not very likely unless the welder is really abusing the amperage setting for a particular diameter.
As far as the structural aspects go, excessive amperage can certainly lead to undercut issues that could weaken and cause cracking problems leading to joint failures. Somewhat along this line the slim possibilty might come up in certain instances where stress risers could develope due to some of the erratic weld deposition that might happen as a result of excessive amperage. I'm stretching it out there pretty far with some of these items and they could certainly be challenged in many instances. Hope maybe this is the sort of thing that will be of help to you. As you said in your post, this could be a very long uphill battle if you are trying to make changes in the environment that you have described. Best regards, aevald

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-26-2008 18:06

Thank you very much. That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I know the question was very general, but I'm taking baby steps here. Just wanted to provide the welders with more reasons than I could think of off the top of my head. Thank you for your time!

JMD

By Kix

Date 02-26-2008 19:14

You said they're running 90 amps all the time, but never said what size rod. Depending on the size of the rod, 90 amps might be to cold or to hot causing the flux to crack and come off like said above. 90 amps is fairly hot for a 3/32" 7018 and pretty cold for a 1/8" 7018.

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-26-2008 19:46

3/32" 316...get this...6" sch 10! I haven't caught these guys yet and no one is giving up names. I have recieved this information from a couple of sources. Another problem is these guys are like beat dogs. They have been beat down for so long they are afraid to change. The client doesn't know the meaning of "good engineering practice." Production is king, safety is secondary, and quality, I have been told, "is just extra stuff that we don't need to do. You are just trying to create work for your company. We grind corn here. Thats all we do."

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-27-2008 03:23

" Production is king, safety is secondary, and quality, I have been told, "is just extra stuff that we don't need to do. You are just trying to create work for your company."

Soooo..........What service are you providing??? You can't teach a pig to dance, your wasting your time, and more importantly, your wasting the pig's time!

As CWI's and inspectors, we are ethically bound to provide a service promoting public safety. Hmmmm...people dying....Sounds like "they" need a "yes man's stamp" for their paperwork. If the corruption is as blatant as described, they could do you damage so that even your dentist might not be able to recognize you ( if you catch my drift ). I'd be doing some serious Roadtechs.com surfing and e-mailing.

Whistle blowing got Karen Silkwood's children $10 million after about 10 years.

By swsweld (****)

Date 02-27-2008 03:24 Edited 02-28-2008 03:50

If you are the CWI you have the right to review the WPS and PQR for the work being performed. These should give the range of welding current per rod size. Also may be able to see if they are violating the max heat imput (kjoules). Looks like they are cooking the sch 10 SS. That would change the metalurgical properties of the metal. the rod manufacturer also has an amperage range for each rod. I have had to program some of our welders to see the bigger picture of following good welding practices and the WPS. I think you are on the right track if you can convince the welders to use proper practices. I merged with another company a couple of years ago and most of the welders from the other company knew nothing about weld quality; rod control, proper cleaning, joint config, weld size & profile, etc. Some soaked it up like a sponge, some do not care. I explain to our guys that even if a weld passes a RT it does not mean it is a good weld. There are other factors involved. It takes consistant effort and not everyone will buy into it. If you can school the welders you may not have to deal with the client. On your non code work; if it is non pressure and no safety issue it may come down to the welders having pride in there work.I bought remote controls for our guys to change current in our underground pipe jobs. I knew we had some that would not crawl out of the ditch to change the setting. Was not going to have bad RT because of laziness.The others that do not change the current have no business welding. Just my opinion. Hope you are successful in your efforts. They obviously need to change and I commend you for trying to do that.

By jmdugan10 (*)

Date 02-29-2008 12:21

Thanks for the pep talk everybody. This situation his really getting me down. I know I'm not going to change this client but my hope is to educate my welders to the point they realize what is going on in this plant. 90% of these guys have not worked outside this plant. They have no concept of indusry standards, this is all they have known. This client has purposely perpetuated an atmoshpere of stagnation. They are pretty much "the" economical backbone of the county.

Gerald,
I get your meaning. It's not that I'm afraid to stand up for what is right, rather it is that I want to be 110% sure of all of my information before I make any moves. Thank you for your help.