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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / need help...badly :(
- - By Goose (**) Date 09-22-2002 01:09
I have been working on building a custom open flat deck car trailer here in my race shop. The frame turned out beautifully...square, level, all cuts/dimensions to spec.

A problem arose when I cut the diamond plate (1/8") to size and began to weld the deck on (solid deck, sheets run sideways, full width, 5 sheets). I first tacked the sheets both around the perimeter and then went underneath and welded several 6" to 8" long welds to the crossmembers to keep the sheets from bowing up before I had a chance to get them welded to the crossmembers. I then came up top and welded the sides of one sheet (4' long). Lastly, I would weld the front edge of the first sheet, then the seam between the first and second sheet (left an 1/8" gap to weld/fill).

After welding the first two sheets on, I looked up and saw something odd...the tongue was pointing up slightly.

Apparently the shrinkage/pull of the welds holding the sheets on pulled the main frame rails and bowed them up on the ends/down in the middle (lengthwise). There's are three sheets unwelded yet (actually, only three of the sheets have been put on the frame, two fully welded, one tacked), but the bow measures about 1 1/8" in the middle of the bow using a string along the length of the main rails...total deck length is 20'.

I think this warpage was due to two factors...(1) I did not really skip around with my welding to minimize heat input and (2) I had the supporting jack stands out towards the ends of the deck leaving the center unsupported and able to sag/pull from the welding process (if the stands were further in, the weight of the trailer ends might have kept the pull from being as extreme as it it right now.

Now, with all that said, are there any trade secrets to help deal with warpage such as what I have here??? I'd hate to have to junk this frame as i have about $900 in steel and a ton of my blood/sweat & tears into this project.

FYI...the frame consists of 2" x 5" rectangular steel (.120" wall) box tubing perimeter and the crossbraces (24" o.c.) are 2" x 3" rectangular tubing, again... 1/8" wall. The welder I'm using is a Miller 251 Millermatic Mig machine, .030" solid wire, 75/25 argon/Co2 mix.

Thanks for any input

Man, I wish I could kick myself right now...Grrrr. This has really got me upset as I have over a month of evenings/weekends in this project, only to screw it up when I knew better (I do auto restoration for a frineds body shop and always to stitch welds and skip around on this sheetmetal).
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-22-2002 02:27
If the stands had been positioned so as to prestress a little arch into the trailer that would have been better. You can still move them while you weld on the rest of the deck. The welds across the trailer were minimal contributers to this problem. The welds along the 2X5 long members are the problem. As the weld cools it shrinks, that arches the member toward the weld. A similar sized weld along the bottom of the member should balance things out. I would put in a foot skip a foot on the first pass then check how its going and fill in the spaces as necessary. Vigorous hammering of the top welds with an air chisel with a blunt tool could help a little.

As a last resort you can muscle it out on a frame machine.

Good luck

Bill
Parent - - By jffluxcore (**) Date 09-23-2002 12:00
Doesn't heating the welds red hot relieve the stress from the weld that caused weld problem? Jim
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-24-2002 05:58
Not really since the stresses would return as the material cooled. If you could force out the warpage and then heat the welds the metal would yield to a substantial degree as it cooled and much of the warping would be removed.

Bill
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 09-24-2002 15:23
Heating the weld would releive the stress, the only problem is you would have to stick the whole trailer in an oven to heat it uniformly to get any benefit. If you only heated the side of the tube with the weld, you would actually induce more warping in the wrong direction.
Parent - - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 09-22-2002 04:42
yeah...the only time you can weld a long straight bead on something is if you've taken all the steps to minimize distortion: preheat, strongbacks, backstepping the welds, etc. in your case, you don't even need long welds. a 3" weld every 6-12" should be plenty for the decking. and yes, skip around. weld for 3" on the left side, then 3" on the right, then 3" toward the back, etc. the farther away you skip from the joint you just welded, the better. the same thing underneath the decking. kinda like when you tighten the lug nuts on a wheel.

and don't think that just because a piece of steel is thick that it can't be warped by welding...we just welded some 1/2" thick H beams to some half inch plate but we forgot to clamp some pieces down and weld some other joints first and it warped about 1/4" out of square, which was bad news for us. hehehehe shrinking steel is a powerful thing!

and all is not lost...if it comes down to it and you can't get the frame straightened out by bending it, the grinder is your answer. get some 5" diameter 1/16" thick cut-off wheels and cut the long welds from the tubing. or just use a regular grinder w/ a thick wheel...you just have to be more careful that you don't grind too much out of the wrong spots. that should relieve the stress and allow you to start over. then get some thicker grinding wheels and grind down the old welds so everything is nice and flat. you might have to grind the welds off of the bottom too, but i'd just take care of those long welds first to see if that'll solve the problem. that'll only take you a few hrs to do w/ a bunch of grinding wheels, but it'll save you a lot of money on steel.
Parent - - By steelman7018 (*) Date 09-22-2002 09:54
I don't know if this would work but what about vibratory stress relief?
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 09-22-2002 17:25
Thanks for the input so far. I'm still upset with myself for letting this happen when I knew better, but I have to regroup and move on...hopefully learning a tough lesson in the process (kinda embarassing to ask this stuff too).

Anyway, here's my thoughts to try and rectify the situation. I moved the front stands to just under the welded sheets and let the tongue weight cantilever over the stands. I will likely use a cut-off wheel and run the length of the welds on the outer rails first which I'm hoping will relieve some of the stress/pull (in addition to grinding out the original welds completely). At that point, I'll put the strings back on the frame and see if and how much the bow reduced. If it's a bit better, I'll then go underneath and cut some of the crossmember welds loose.

I hope to get a good portion of the bow out, but I know it might not be possible to get all of it out. If breaking these welds loose helps, I can then load the frame in the right places (with corresponding stand placement) and preload the frame. Another option mentioned by a local welder was to weld angle iron to the frame pointing down almost touching the ground (one in the front, one out back) and use a come-along to pull the frame.

As a last resort, I will take the plasma cutter and remove one, if not both full sheets, grind the weld/slag off and start over, preloading the frame a bit this time.

Needless to say, this work will definately take many hours to fix as well as many grinding discs/cut-off to fix this error. I'm still uncertain which direction will be the least amount of work, yet still fix the bow the most effective way.

As someone once told me...it's mistakes like this that build character. lol.

Am I thinking along the right lines?

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Parent - By Goose (**) Date 09-22-2002 22:21
...been having second thoughts based on comments by one person.

His feeling was that even if the decking was cut loose that the frame would still be warped from the heat input during welding and shrunk the top edge of the box tube.

I'm now questioning whether all the work grinding/cutting the deck welds loose with yield me no better due to main frame rail warpage.

If this is a serious consideration, would it work to heat the H.A.Z. of the welding with a torch and have the frame under load to allow it to settle back down straight? or will additional heat make the warpage worse? If heat will work, what tip on the torch should be used and what temp/color should I shoot for?

thanks everyone for your input thus far. it's comforting to know I'm not the first person to warp something up, although that fact still doesn't make my problem go away :(. I've done a bunch of welding over the years, but this is by far the largest project I've tacked...steap learning curve here.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 09-22-2002 20:40
Steelman,
Please permit a bit of humor at others' expense; I think all I would consider vibratory stress relief appropriate for in this case would be Goose's headache :-)

According to my understanding, the dynamics acting upon the hot, plastic steel distorts its dimensions there at the HAZ. The heat does two things, first it causes unequal expansion and distortion of the heated part, and second, it causes the steel to become plastic and much easier to stretch or compress, like a sheet of warm parrifin or bubblegum, it thins where stretched and thickens where compressed. As the metal cools the plastic properties return to normal at a different, faster rate than the expansion/distortion, causing the steel to retain a distorted shape. More than mere stress is a change in the physical dimensions of the metal.

I believe vibratory relief would be appropriate for making the metal relax where it lays.

The scale of Goose's weldment is much larger than I work with regularly, but were it me I would consider flame straightening... a blackhawk type frame machine as already suggested would probably be faster and cheaper in gas and time, IMHO... 2x5x.120 HollowSteelSections hold a lot of heat per foot.
These things, however, are often preferably quietly repaired at one's own shop.

BTW Goose, I have tried many types of grind wheels and seem to find Sait wheels to provide more and apparently faster cutting per wheel than cheap import wheels or even Norton's quality product. They make a good eraser.
Don't feel bad; I am willing to admit my flat forehead is not genetic but has been aquired by slapping it with the palm of my hand from time to time.

Regards,
D
Parent - By Michael Sherman (***) Date 09-23-2002 10:49
Goose, I believe you have all the answers you need spread out in several posts. I have had things like this happen in my shop, if you stay at this business long enough it will happen to just about everyone. First, you should not have needed to weld this solid, I believe that and not moving around or using strongbacks caused the warpage. Second, you may very well need to cut the plate free before the frame can be straightened. I would use a rosebud on the underside of the frame, heat the tube until it is red and move steadily down the entire frame and then leave it sit until it cools. If it does not come back enough with the plate on, cut it loose and then use the rosebud again. The mecahanical frame straightener idea would work also, but like was mentioned, these are often best fixed in the privacy of our own shops. Please follow up and let us know of your progress.

Respectfully,
Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-23-2002 12:46
I may be hardheaded, but I would try to fix the problem before cutting apart the work I've already put into the project. It seems to me that grinding out the welds would not be enough to fix the problem, which would try to re-occur when you replaced the weld.
I used to work for a man who wrote the book on heat shrinking. He could make an I beam walk across the shop floor with a rosebud and a spray bottle.
Anyway, the procedure he taught me was basically this:
First put a pre-bow in the weldment using whatever means are most practical given your situation. (come-along, beam and wedge, turnbuckle, etc...) As you have already begun welding, but have not finished, you should still put in a pre-bow and then finish welding (if at all possible).
After the weldment has cooled remove the pre-bow apparatus and assess the situation.
Heat shrink the longitudinal members in which welding caused the warpage. Use a rosebud torch to create a triangular shaped red hot area on the side walls of the tubing and the bottom, with the bottom side of the triangle about 4" wide. Put as little heat as possible on the welded side. Don't over heat the metal. Your looking for a dull red in color, not yellow. It's important that each side of the tube is heated evenly, otherwise one side will shrink more than the other and cause more problems.
When both sidewalls and the bottom of the tube are an even dull red in color, shut off the torch and immediatly cool the metal with a pump spray bottle, by spraying a mist of water first around the outside of the triangle and move in toward the center as it cools. Continue spraying until the metal is cool enough to touch. This will force the metal to shrink in the opposite direction of the bow.
Start off with the first tringle/hot spot in the center of the bow, on both of your longitudinal members. If you have a buddy to help you, it would be best to do both members simutaneously. If not, then skip from one member to the next. After completing the center spot, move about three feet toward the end and do another spot. Then move about three feet on the other side of the center spot and do another. Keep working toward the each end like so.
If by the time you reach the ends and there is still some bow left, you can shrink more spaces as needed in between the ones already done.
Do both longitudinal members evenly, or you'll wind up with a twist.
It will help if you turn the trailer upside down and support it on the ends only, so the middle is free to sag in the direction you want it to move. You can even put some weight in the center to help it out.
Anyway, ther are many different methods of fixing your problem. The solution I mentioned is what has worked best, many times, for me.
Good Luck and let us know what worked best for you.
Tim
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 09-23-2002 23:32
That sounds like a nice way to straighten the rails. In my case, I'm scared to try that as I have never done any heat straightening and would be afraid to warp the frame in another direction. If it was just one rail, then it would be easier, but I've got two main rails to do as well as possibly a center tongue runner which all would need to be done equally...too difficult for a person like me I'm afraid.

One suggestion was to duplicate the heat on the bottom of each rail as was applied when the top was welded. This sounds like a much simpler method for me. It had been mentioned that the diamond plate should be removed. I'm trying to think about this logically. If the top has been already heat shrunk, then were trying to shrink the bottom of the rail an equal amount. This being the case, would the diamond plate even need to be removed at all? If the top is stable, then just the bottom needs shrunk, so how would removing the domaond plate & welds help shrink the bottom of the rails? Or, would removing the d.p. take out some of the stresses that could keep the bottom from shrinking an equal amount?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm presently trying to figure which approach would fix the warpage, yet minimize the amount of work in the process.

keep the ideas coming. You guys are a great resource for me.

thanks
Todd
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-24-2002 06:37
I wouldn't take the deck off- as stated above the problem is just as likely to return when you weld it back on.

I agree with those who suggest stitches instead of continuous welding.

Consider going ahead and installing the rest of the deck using the advice in the posts above to minimise warpage.

Now attack straightening. Having the deck in place will so stiffen the trailer side to side that warpage in that plane will be most unlikely. You can use either the method described above or you can weld the bottom of the 2X5's or both. If both do the heating method first since it would remove the residual stresses that the welding method depends on. Both of these methods provide good control since neither one causes large changes to happen quickly. Just do a little then see what you got. You must have some scrap pieces you can practice on to gain confidence. I don't know how your tongue is attached but if it adds a lot of stiffness you may have to remove some of the welds that attach it.

What you have here is a bother not a catastrophe. Soldier on, you will learn a lot and come out OK in the end.

Bill
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 09-24-2002 15:30
Goose,
As mentioned by others, there are several ways of straightening your trailer. (The one I would use is heating the bottom of the rail with a torch. Although I wouldn't do the whole thing at once, try a few spots at a time until you get it where you want it) However, I would implore you not to cut your welds off. Not only will it not correct the warping, but you will eventually have to weld it back on anyway, and even if you stitch weld it on, it will still introduce new stresses, making it worse than if you hadn't cut it off in the first place.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-24-2002 13:55
Goose,
Heat makes metal move. So does cold. Welding on metal magnifies the amount of movement because the bead itself shrinks more than the base metal and makes it bow like a banana, if you weld only on one side. These are facts of life that are unavoidable, to a certain extent. Smart engineering and preventative or counter-affecting technique will minimize detrimental warpage, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. In these cases you finish all welding and or heat input to the point where you know no more warpage will result, then you complete the job by straightening it out. Just like washing a shirt. Washing and drying make it clean but leave it wrinkled, so to complete the job you iron it out. Nothing to get worried about or afraid of, just part of the job.
Of course straightening out your trailer is more difficult than ironing a shirt, but it needs to be done, so just do it. The fact that you are worried about messing it up is good. That wiil keep you concentrated on doing it right instead of going haywire without planning it out first.
Consider trying this first.
Measure the amount of warpage you have and write it down.
Then turn the trailer upside down and support it on the ends so the middle is free to sag. Put something heavy in the middle of the bow if you can.
Then just take your torch and run down the entire length of the bottom side of the bowed tubes, slowly, so that you are dragging along a red hot spot, like Mr. Sherman suggested.
After it's had a chance to cool off completely, turn it back over and measure the amount of warpage now.
If that did not solve the problem, then you know you'll have to force it to straighten out like I mentioned in my last post, or with a mechanical straightener, or even by cutting slots in the tubing and welding them up, or a hundred different ways of going about it.
The fact is that you have put a lot of time, money, and effort into this project. Don't quit now, just jump in there and finish the job.
If you would like to learn more about Flame Straightening, I have a copy of a book called "Flame Straightening Technology For Welders" that I could mail to you. Just post you mailing address.
Good Luck!
Tim
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 09-25-2002 02:03
Thanks again everyone for taking time to help me here. I really do appreciate it.

Just in case anyone here is bored and needs something to waste some time with, here is a list of links that are pictures taken throughout the construction of this trailer. The last few show a close up of the warpage.

http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer1.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer2.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer3.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer4.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer5.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer6.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer7.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer8.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer9.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer10.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer11.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer12.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer13.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer14.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer15.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer16.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer17.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer18.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer19.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer20.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer21.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer22.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer23.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer24.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer25.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer26.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer27.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer28.jpg
http://www.qis.net/~geislert/trailer29.jpg

again...thatnks so much. I'll report back when I'm done welding and have attempted to heat straighten this thing.
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-25-2002 03:25
Nice neat job.

The tongue now that I can see it is most likely not part of the problem. It has just followed along as the siderails warped.

Dragging a hot spot along the bottom of the rail with a torch is for all intents and purposes the same as welding on the bottom of the rail and will yield a neater result. Having seen your pictures I now change my suggestion to that. Since I see that your shop lacks the handy overhead crane you will probably have to work with the frame right side up. You can still load the warpage out by piling your "heavy stuff" on the ends and then jacking under the middle.

I reiterate this is a bother not a catastrophe- soldier on.

Bill
Parent - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 09-25-2002 16:24
yeah, you don't have a real problem yet. from what i've seen in your pics, that warpage isn't too bad and is repairable. you've got a lot of advice here and it'll be interesting to see what works for you. just remember not to weld anything continuously all in one shot. you can come back to a joint and fill in the spaces between the previous welds later if you want, but don't do it all at once. oh, and just to be safe, you could probably try only welding the joints that aren't hot to the touch. if they're hot then you should let them cool before you continue welding in that area to prevent further warpage.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / need help...badly :(

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